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Xenonauts-2: Air Combat

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13 hours ago, endersblade said:

I'm just having a hard time imagining 15 planes attempting to take off to head to a target at the same time...one would think the first plane would be low on fuel after circling the base for so long waiting on the last one.

Just picture how we do it in real life with 15 strong squadrons. They all take off normally, then adjust speeds (slowing down or speeding up slightly) to match their friends. Commercial airlines can take off once every two minutes and while I imagine the military could get it done a lot faster, that still leaves you with a nice 30 minute window to adjust once you're in the air. I don't know about you, but I almost never intercepted a UFO in less than 30 minutes until the late game and by then, I can imagine the craft can just do VTOL like takeoffs instead of being limited to a single runway.

My favourite thing about this system is that it adds much more granularity to success and failure. In these games, a ship either succeeds or it doesn't. Sure it can sometimes take enough damage to ground it, but here, you'd end up with less strong squadrons for minor failures rather than a pure binary win-loss condition. Much more interesting to play with.

13 hours ago, endersblade said:

Something I would like to see though, and this was something that I believe Long War added to XCOM, was each interceptor kept track of how many kills it had.

Xenonauts 1 does this! It's awesome and always makes me feel bad about decommissioning those 20+ kill craft when they become obsolete.

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Hmm... maybe we can make 6 planes. The Idea is that that squadron will get in 2 seperate squadronds of 3 Planes to have a better attackchance for smaller Ufos. I liked the 3 Planes against a Ufo (that was in the old X-Com titels too). Only 3 planes could attack. But in the new Xenonauts there is a difference. We don´t have enough money to build up a fully air defense and finance them.

Now the Idea to that suggestion. You can bring in all your fighters to get down the UFO´s like in the Predecussor. But instead launching 1 to 3 seperate Fighters to bring down the UFO / UFO´s you launching a full lance of 6 Fighters (up to now 5 Fighters). Before they attack the UFO / UFO´s the Fightersquadron will seperate in 2 to 3 fighters each for smaller Ufos. So you get a chance to bring down the Enemy / Enemys.

The UFO (belongs on the size of it) Small, Medium or Big try to Escape or to attak. If it / they try to escape it / they will use old U-Boat-Maneuvers [like dispy doodle], which makes it impossible to attak in a full group of 6 Fighters. In that case the Squadron will seperate in 2 Squads with 3 Fighters to encircle the UFO to have a chance to bring it down.

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Regarding boarding of UFOs, I think it's a very interesting idea. I think there is a good way it could be done. I.e. by making it possible only in the late part of the game and with the largest UFOs. That is UFOs, which would have a hangar inside. There could be some chance to destroy the hangar door without making too much damage and then land inside. Or maybe better use some codes from a captured commander. Also, such a thing would require some really advanced technology. Like a very fast dropship based on alien tech, suits allowing to survive in a vacuum (an UFO could immediately go to space) and some jamming device, so they would think it's a scout landing. At least until they would see it from a close distance but it would be too late by then.

Possibly, it could serve as one of the first alien bases to infiltrate.

And meybe it could be such a huge and powerful UFO it would be impossible to defeat by interceptors until later in the game.

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35 minutes ago, Ravn7 said:

Regarding boarding of UFOs, I think it's a very interesting idea. I think there is a good way it could be done. I.e. by making it possible only in the late part of the game and with the largest UFOs. That is UFOs, which would have a hangar inside. There could be some chance to destroy the hangar door without making too much damage and then land inside. Or maybe better use some codes from a captured commander. Also, such a thing would require some really advanced technology. Like a very fast dropship based on alien tech, suits allowing to survive in a vacuum (an UFO could immediately go to space) and some jamming device, so they would think it's a scout landing. At least until they would see it from a close distance but it would be too late by then.

Possibly, it could serve as one of the first alien bases to infiltrate.

And meybe it could be such a huge and powerful UFO it would be impossible to defeat by interceptors until later in the game.

That was the exact idea I had about the removed Dreadnaughts from X1.  Just so massive that you can't shoot them down, so you send troops to them, like you said via boarding, to take it down from the inside.  So you kill the crew, land the ship, and you get the resources and equipment and such.

It could be a sort of mini game.  Your interceptors pick at it and dodge incoming fire long enough for your dropship to enter the hangar, then they peel off.  So there's a risk of losing planes in the process.

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It would give you a huge undamaged UFO. I'm not sure if it wouldn't be too much. But maybe humans wouldn't be able to pilot it, so they would need to set up charges near the reactor and leave. It would make sense because otherwise players could wonder why can't their interceptors with one alien Dreadnaught? It could change at some point but not right away.
 

And a word about presenting the air combat. I think the first X-COM presented the combat in a cool way because of those radar “waves”. It added dynamism to something very simple. And if you want to make it more like a paragraph game, I would do a similar thing (not too similar, of course). Like on the side or on the top of the text. And maybe a big picture underneath of quickly moving clouds that would remind of a fast flight.

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2 hours ago, Ravn7 said:

Regarding boarding of UFOs, I think it's a very interesting idea. I think there is a good way it could be done. I.e. by making it possible only in the late part of the game and with the largest UFOs. That is UFOs, which would have a hangar inside. There could be some chance to destroy the hangar door without making too much damage and then land inside. Or maybe better use some codes from a captured commander. Also, such a thing would require some really advanced technology. Like a very fast dropship based on alien tech, suits allowing to survive in a vacuum (an UFO could immediately go to space) and some jamming device, so they would think it's a scout landing. At least until they would see it from a close distance but it would be too late by then.

Possibly, it could serve as one of the first alien bases to infiltrate.

And meybe it could be such a huge and powerful UFO it would be impossible to defeat by interceptors until later in the game.

 

1 hour ago, endersblade said:

That was the exact idea I had about the removed Dreadnaughts from X1.  Just so massive that you can't shoot them down, so you send troops to them, like you said via boarding, to take it down from the inside.  So you kill the crew, land the ship, and you get the resources and equipment and such.

It could be a sort of mini game.  Your interceptors pick at it and dodge incoming fire long enough for your dropship to enter the hangar, then they peel off.  So there's a risk of losing planes in the process.

It kinda reminds me a bit too much of what they did on the first Independence Day ... I'd half expect to see Will Smith & Jeff Goldblum waving at the Xenos again.

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50 minutes ago, Wyldefyre_CP said:

 

It kinda reminds me a bit too much of what they did on the first Independence Day ... I'd half expect to see Will Smith & Jeff Goldblum waving at the Xenos again.

Haha that would be hilarious :-)

@Ravn7 Yeah, lore-wise I'd say that we get in, kill all the aliens, land the ship somewhere safe, strip it for parts we can use, then blow up/incinerate the rest.  Basically you get the loot from the mission, then you get a lot of alloy/alenium/whatever this game uses and possible research projects.  They could also house one of the top tier officer types for you to capture, if that's a thing in this game.

It could be set up as one of those two-phase missions, like X-COM and TFTD had.  The first part being your boarding party fighting their way in from the hangar/cargo bay, then the second being fighting your way to the bridge and taking over the ship.  Since something like this would be late game, it should be difficult but not impossible to tackle with the research you should have at that point.  The second half being more difficult depending on how you performed on the first half - if you managed to sneak in and get to the exit point without being detected/killing anything, then the aliens on the second part might be fewer in number or less organized or something.  But if you go in guns blazing on the first mission, the UFO is alerted to your presence, and the second half will be much harder.

On the other side of this, these ships should exclusively be sent out for missions that will require you to respond.  Base attacks, terror attacks, etc, anything that initiates a mission for you to send soldiers to.  That way if you don't try to board it and take it over, it will at still force you to respond to it.

I've always like the idea of the aliens throwing the largest of their ships at you, something the size of a city that your puny planes, no matter how many you have, could ever possibly take it down.  So you either attempt to board it, as we have been discussing, or just wait for it to land or do whatever it's supposed to and strike when it is vulnerable.

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Certainly very interesting ideas.

If aliens are going to have some teleportation devices this time around, you could steal one of these and use it for some stealth missions onboard largest UFOs.

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2 hours ago, Ravn7 said:

If aliens are going to have some teleportation devices this time around, you could steal one of these

I think this was the plot of a Star Trek episode. Some randoms have a ship shaped like a blade, they pierce the Voyager with it so that they can snatch the advanced teleport technology. I can imagine assaulting the dreadnought to be similar - you punch in but can't bring enough troops to overwhelm the defenders, you just have enough time to plant a bomb or something and get out.

Also, sadly, XCOM EW had this idea, boarding a battleship. inB4 the "you're just copying firaxis" crowd :p

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5 hours ago, Ninothree said:

I think this was the plot of a Star Trek episode. Some randoms have a ship shaped like a blade, they pierce the Voyager with it so that they can snatch the advanced teleport technology. I can imagine assaulting the dreadnought to be similar - you punch in but can't bring enough troops to overwhelm the defenders, you just have enough time to plant a bomb or something and get out.

Also, sadly, XCOM EW had this idea, boarding a battleship. inB4 the "you're just copying firaxis" crowd :p

XCOM did it ONCE, and it was an actual DLC lol.  I wouldn't consider something the like that to be a copy, especially considering how interesting and innovative it is for this genre.

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/sorry for the offtop

@Ninothree, which episode was that? I can't remember piercing Voyager. Although I watched the whole series again last year. It reminds of The Void episode but can't remember such an event.

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Posted (edited)

We can go for Stargate SG1 style to this problem. We can have big size space ships with enough fire power and shield mechanic against alien forces. Stargate got also very limited personel and not known by publish, so hidden operatives. Even so they got cool battleship (s).. so it's not so wrong to give some ships to the xcom at their fights against aliens. This would need more complex game development as "fighters" and "ships"..i would love to have it and if i can do it as a mod, i would go for it.. it was one of my dream for X-Division but could not make it because of engine/code limitations.. the real question is, will it worth it to add more complex air fight mechanic/content to a xcom game?.. for me yeah but don't know about others...

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Daedalus

The fact is, i like to have different kind of planes and making different items/weapons to them.. even the game is mostly tactical soldier combat, i like to manage my fighting force. I think it's very important part of the xcom genre and fraxis made it wrong with erasing it totally. 

Boarding a dreadnought is nice idea, but you need to disable it before you reach it.. because it won't be alone out there.. probably heavily escorted..

Teleport idea likes a cheap/lazy script.. it would make everything much more easier.. if you can limit it with logical facts (like need huge amount of energy or uses something special to operate) , maybe it could be something cool but againt if enemy got it, why would not use it at all against us...

 

Edited by drages
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I doubt a ship that large would have an escort, it wouldn't really need one (especially if you take into consideration MOST ships in X1 didn't have any, and if the Aliens feel they are superior to us they wouldn't feel the need) since it's so large and impregnable, and probably armed to the teeth anyway.  As I mentioned in my previous post, we would basically harass them with interceptors, and while it's busy swatting at flies, we land our troop transport inside the ship.  Or hell, outside and work our way in, whatever works.

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5 minutes ago, endersblade said:

I doubt a ship that large would have an escort, it wouldn't really need one (especially if you take into consideration MOST ships in X1 didn't have any, and if the Aliens feel they are superior to us they wouldn't feel the need) since it's so large and impregnable, and probably armed to the teeth anyway.  As I mentioned in my previous post, we would basically harass them with interceptors, and while it's busy swatting at flies, we land our troop transport inside the ship.  Or hell, outside and work our way in, whatever works.

X-1 did not make everything right about that.. escort mechanic was very logical and should be use at every ufo at least bigger then cruiser class because every big ship which does not have enough maneuver ability and used as a "command" ship should have escorts.. So a dreadnought could have easily cruiser class escorts. Including that, there would be some drone fighters with them. At X-1, we got carrier class ufos without any drone or fighters because of the game engine limitation.. and at X-1, airfights were max 3 vs 3.. now we are talking 3 squadron with total of 15 planes at our side. So i would expect an alien fleet with a dreadnought so we would need to have "waves" of planes to shoot it down..

This is standart logic behind fleets.. you can never see an operational carrier sailing alone even at peace times.. because even it has enough guns with it, it would not able to survive against a coordinated attack of fast units with hit and run tactics.. 

I would like to see that, we clean all the escorts, disable the ship before it escapes and board it at that time.. boarding party should not able to fly it or we will have dreadnoughts, lol.. so it should be special mission.. to retrieve something, kill or capture special alien or self destruct it (as it's impossible to destroy with a air fight..)

As the "superior to us" idea, i am respectfully against it because aliens will see that we are really more then they guessed at first place, at late game when we got same fire power as them and bring to fight to a point which they need to have dreadnoughts..  

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In SG-1 the were having alien ships only for a very short time. In would be an issue for the story at that time. And later there was a limitation of travel time, so they still needed to use stargates. In X2 a captured alien warship would be too powerful and could carry too much of everything.

To a paragraph game you can always add multiple scenarios without spending too much resources.

On the side note, when I read all these threads, it seems the game becomes too complex for a small studio. That is if you  would want to implement all those cool ideas and make sure the balance is right. At least earlier then a few months after the release. The release which would be full of mediocre reviews, anyway, because the game was unfinished but had to be released for the usual reason of running out of money.

That is why I always try to think about it when I post my ideas on the game mechanics.

 

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My ideas here are a bit more then this game needs probably, as i said there. Just sharing some ideas.. Chris got many things covered already and got a great kickstarter.. so they can push a bit more with that.. devs will use what they want and sees fit anyway..

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57 minutes ago, Ravn7 said:

In SG-1 the were having alien ships only for a very short time. In would be an issue for the story at that time. And later there was a limitation of travel time, so they still needed to use stargates. In X2 a captured alien warship would be too powerful and could carry too much of everything.

To a paragraph game you can always add multiple scenarios without spending too much resources.

On the side note, when I read all these threads, it seems the game becomes too complex for a small studio. That is if you  would want to implement all those cool ideas and make sure the balance is right. At least earlier then a few months after the release. The release which would be full of mediocre reviews, anyway, because the game was unfinished but had to be released for the usual reason of running out of money.

That is why I always try to think about it when I post my ideas on the game mechanics.

 

As I mentioned the idea is to land the ship and strip it for parts, not use it.  A simple hand-waving of "we poked around enough to land it, but the technology would take us years to figure out" would be enough to explain why we don't just commandeer the Aliens' largest ship and turn it against them.

I actually think this would make a great DLC - "Dreadnaughts".  Introducing an ultra-large, late-game ship (or ships) that are two-stage and require us to tackle them by boarding and landing.  Introducing a dynamic to air and tactical combat not seen in the base game.

@Drages about escorts.  Think about ID4.  Those ships were massive and had absolutely zero need for an escort because our planes couldn't do anything at all to it.  It had fighters, sure, and the Dreads in X2 in this scenario could launch them, maybe that's what our fighters will be shooting at while the transport is attempting to land on it.  But the ship itself is just too large and too well shielded/armored to even care about what our planes shoot at it.

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That reminds me actually - I really should post up some more info on what the air combat is actually going to be. I've actually settled on what the air combat will look like in X2 - or at least, how it'll look in its first iteration. Hopefully I'll get a chance to post it up tomorrow.

EDIT: Alright, here we go: https://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19591-xenonauts-2-air-combat-prototype-effects-on-strategy-layer/

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