Are multi-tile vehicles still going to be removed from X2?

[trotskygrad]

While I understand the difficulty in transitioning multi-tile vehicles to 3D, I thought they were one of the most unique and interesting aspects of X1. Most other games in the genre do single tile or don't mess around with vehicles that much. Ideally I'd like to see properly crewed vehicles, along with more variation (the German Wiesel comes to mind as an ideal choice as it's meant to deploy from a CH-53) with a bit of crew management, but I can understand if that doesn't fit into the current design plan. I feel that abstracting vehicles into UGVs makes a lot of sense from game design, but it would be nice to see some love for the armored crews as well.

It also would allow for INDFOR to possibly field some really cool vehicles like BTRs or M113s with human crews. Seeing an INDFOR AI motorized infantry squad attempting to battle the aliens would be pretty neat.

[Chris]

The primary problem with the vehicles was not so much that multi-tile units are hard to implement (although it does of course create extra work for us) but that the game rules don't really handle them very well in terms of scale.

Fundamentally it's difficult to come up with a set of rules and stats for the aliens where they are appropriately vulnerable to infantry weapons like rifles and shotguns, but then can't be annihilated in a single hit by a vehicle-mounted cannon or HMG. It somewhat negates the tech progression and challenge of the game if we introduce a "tough" enemy like a Sebillian and the player can just blow it up with a tank. The inverse is also true; if we have enemies that are tough enough to stand up to human vehicles then they're going to be almost invulnerable to small arms fire and that means the player HAS to bring along a tank (or heavy weapons) to counter them.

I think the idea of seeing some larger scale battles against the aliens (with limited armoured support on both sides) would be great., it just doesn't really dovetail into the X-Com mechanics. We'll have sentry guns and stuff on the defensive missions, but I don't see us giving the player tanks or armoured cars.

[trotskygrad]

11 hours ago, Chris said:

The primary problem with the vehicles was not so much that multi-tile units are hard to implement (although it does of course create extra work for us) but that the game rules don't really handle them very well in terms of scale.

Fundamentally it's difficult to come up with a set of rules and stats for the aliens where they are appropriately vulnerable to infantry weapons like rifles and shotguns, but then can't be annihilated in a single hit by a vehicle-mounted cannon or HMG. It somewhat negates the tech progression and challenge of the game if we introduce a "tough" enemy like a Sebillian and the player can just blow it up with a tank. The inverse is also true; if we have enemies that are tough enough to stand up to human vehicles then they're going to be almost invulnerable to small arms fire and that means the player HAS to bring along a tank (or heavy weapons) to counter them.

I think the idea of seeing some larger scale battles against the aliens (with limited armoured support on both sides) would be great., it just doesn't really dovetail into the X-Com mechanics. We'll have sentry guns and stuff on the defensive missions, but I don't see us giving the player tanks or armoured cars.

While this is true, I feel there are some ways around this

a) you could have aliens show up with anti-armor weaponry earlier on if you deploy AFVs often during missions
b) you could have enemy AFVs that detect yours but are mediocre to bad at detecting infantry

c) you could make AFVs all attachments to the Xenonauts from national militaries, reliant on their favor and requiring "favor points" of sorts.

Edited February 23, 2018 by trotskygrad

[Casaubon]

While playing Xenonauts I was thinking why are soldiers always limted to come in with dropships to every mission and not other means of transport (besides why not bring several dropships to a difficult mission if you have them, except for game balance but that´s another story and probably one of the reasons why there will be just 1 base in Xenonauts2?).
In Xcom Apocalypse or the british UFO TV show from the 60ies the ground team would disembark from all kinds of APCs or other means of transport. So you could maybe think of vehicles that are rather transport, with the occassional sentry gun that will be in the game anyway, mounted at the cargo exit of the vehicle/dropship or something alike. Vehicle is kind of there but not actively doing the hunting job. Other way to limit the problem with over powered vehicles would be map design with limited outdoor space that is suitable for vehicles, which kind of exists in Xenonauts where tanks aren´t that useful inside most ufos.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Casaubon

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm going to miss them. Understand your reasoning, though.

 

[Chris]

Absolutely no promises, but there is some potential for a 1-tile tank / support vehicle making it back into the game, simply because it's very useful to have something that can crush fences (and potentially drive through walls) in the early game. This sort of thing, maybe: 

If I can find a way of supporting it without adding a load of new UI dedicated entirely to managing vehicles then maybe it'll happen. Much easier to balance something this size than a full-scale armoured car / hovertank.

[Ninothree]

That thing looks pretty nasty but I've seen Robot Wars, I know that if it gets flipped on its side it'll be little more than target practice.

[apostrophefz]

The XCOM have those drones. They can be used for adhoc cover by the soldiers. Very practical.

[Casaubon]

On 4.4.2018 at 11:24 PM, Chris said:

Absolutely no promises, but there is some potential for a 1-tile tank / support vehicle making it back into the game, simply because it's very useful to have something that can crush fences (and potentially drive through walls) in the early game. This sort of thing, maybe: 

That would be grand! If I remember correctly to have read in the forums you were writing about considering base defence such as automatic machine guns. Maybe you could apply the code for those and add movement.

[Max_Caine]

I think that some UI changes for drones would be inevitable, because drones do not look like humans so to paste a UI for humans on top of a drone would be jarring. However, you could probably get away with most of it being where to put the equipment slot boxes so it's more drone-y. 

[Safe-Keeper]

With tanks gone, maybe there could be a "Fortnite pickaxe"-style weapon that allows soldiers to knock down obstacles like low fences (and maybe even walls) at the cost of time units? Something like a small handheld battering ram like the ones police forces use?

Also, a good way to have tanks would be to have them be this "special" unit you only have in some missions. Perhaps these missions could be extra tough with more and/or better equipped enemies than usual or something to compensate, and you'll have some fun getting to use an armoured car with rocket launchers or machine guns. Base defense missions, particularly hard terror missions, what have you. Something that either makes X-Com go "hmm, yeah, we probably need some extra firepower for this one, bring in the armoured car", or where maybe local police/military forces commit vehicles like this and you get to assume command of them when you arrive.

[Rodmar18]

A special unit, or a hardpoint, unmovable prop, like a static tank, a heavy MG with servants, a small bunker. Being armoured and/or protected by sand bags, concrete, etc., it would last more turns than a single soldier, and would divert the Aliens. Or you could build a defence point around such an asset if you are lucky enough to deploy near one of them.

On the other hand, some parts of bigger UFOs could be also considered as hardpoints too, like a nose canon, a blockhouse, or something, that would batter an area and force the team to approach from another direction (or use very powerful explosives). Only special assault landers could have this feature, though.

Then, we talk again about human armed transports...