Jump to content

A little side-suggestion on balance and realism.


Recommended Posts

Make laser weapons such that their damage drops over distance instead of accuracy.

It just makes sense realistically(no bullet drop or travel time) and it could be a cool balance feature. Some players could prefer keeping ballistic weapons for their snipers to use them as long-range killers while some players may prefer laser snipers for a more recon-support role since they can't one-shot aliens from long distances...

Also, it could be a nice change to make laser weapons fire effects look like half-life's tau cannon's beam instead of a star wars like laser bolts to visually aid this mechanic in the game.

 

 

I looked around a little bit to see if anyone else suggested something like this but couldn't find any... Sorry in advance if this idea was already suggested before...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, missed this before. So would you set the accuracy of the laser weapon to 100% then? You could definitely have the damage drop off over distance in a way that ballistic weapons do not, but I would have thought having a super-accurate weapon would be a little overpowered given it then doesn't require any skill on the part of the sniper to use.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

well shot chance to hit is basically comprised out of 2 factors, the weapons user and the weapon itself.

weapon wise, lasers have no travel time over distance (lasers would be much faster then bullets, plasma bolts* or railgun slugs) , so provided the laser is actually powerful enough* you would require no lead nor would you have to account for drop or most other environmental factors(2). this would make then notably easier to aim beyond point blank range. 

*suspension of disbelief needed, as laser/plasma tech have rather difficult hurdles to take when it comes to effectively weaponizing them. notably that they dissipate quickly over distance and it often takes time for the heat to stack up sufficiently to cause damage. this on top of the ludicrous amounts of energy required for these weapons

2. lasers don't actually have a solid piercing projectile, meaning that smoke or fog would rapidly dissipate the beam, in effect a smoke grenade would completely neuter laser based weapons. certain hot and cold based optical effects might also distort the weapon.

when it comes to the user, well unless the gun itself has an aim assist computer the gunman is not going to be any more accurate..and while the game is turn based enemy combatants are not actually standing still. it is certainly still possible to miss.

this leads me to 3 conclusions

-laser weapon accuracy should still depend on the gunner, but may have a bonus to-hit for targets at medium range and beyond

-laser weapon range is effectively hard, beyond the listed range they simply won't have enough juice-per-shot to effect a target. unlike a ballistic weapons damage that starts tapering off.

-laser weapon could interact much harsher with concealment effects like smoke and shrubbery

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wasn't fond of your ideas on laser weapons, but I find the idea of cover being extra effective against laser weapons very interesting. 100% hit change, but it's reduced by cover. Even if you field explosives, the smoke they could create would dissipate the beam and make it just as useless. It will really promote flanking plays or creative object destruction.

I think it's novel, to say the least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the Halo games used a Focus Rifle (which was pretty much a laser) that fired in a stream rather than a brief, intense burst. Damage was a function of how long you could keep the beam trained on your opponent. Naturally, the beam hit dead-centre of your reticule: you didn't need to lead your target but it was nonetheless fairly hard to track your enemy accurately. I guess that the transfer to a turn based system would be - as mentioned above - that the gunner is still fallible but that the damage done would depend on time units remaining. It'd be much like the basic TU to firepower conversion of snap vs auto fire. Except in this case the calculation would be a continuous function, feasibly inputting distance and the opacity of the air too.

I don't know how much difference that would actually make in terms of gameplay but if we're considering realism, I'm fairly sure that a laser's cutting power is related to the duration for which it is focused as much particles which would dissipate the energy en route.

Note: Halo also sports a Spartan Laser which behaves very differently and is badass in its own right. It is a heavy weapon more akin to the class of LMG or rocket launcher. That gun was especially fun for arcing the beam across several targets or drilling directly into one. That mechanic is also an application I'd vouch for if we're discussing how a laser weaponry could be implemented.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Don't forget however that Halo technology is perhaps ahead of the Xeno technology, how genius our chief scientist might be. So much for advanced targeting and guiding systems.

Lasers may be harmful in two ways, as far as I learned: a thermal effect that burns through armour and flesh for a piercing result (or a cutting result if target or weapon are moving, and energy is enough), and a concussive effect that peels off the surface material, and eventually sends forth a shock wave in the material (up to causing cavity wounds?). The former is mostly dealt by continuous beam lasers (energy can be absorbed by armour and transferred to nearby tissues), the latter by pulsed lasers (deposited energy can't be evacuated so fast, and matter is vaporized, leading to a pressure wave).

For all the reasons on the above messages, I'd be for an easier aim, and not for a 100% (range) hit chance. Again, I'm not sure if Xeno technology can provide auto-stabilizing, target-following aiming system.

I think that the main question here is the weapon tier paradigm used by Xenonauts. Currently, as explained in the Xenopaedia articles, Xeno weapons are precisely designed so that soldiers aren't perturbed when upgrading their armament. This even translates in downgrading some new technology assets. As a result, different tier weapons differ only in term of visuals, damage power, damage type, weight, and suppression effect (except for rockets). Other characteristics such as range, ammo capacity, ease of use (UT), encumbrance, area of effect (sometimes), etc, are left unchanged for the soldier to not be annoyed.

This deprives the player of an added diversity such as longer range / better accuracy lasers (if powerful enough, that is) and impressive (suppressive) plasma balls, and introduces some weird effects (imho) such as large area explosive (pulsed) lasers, rockets doing incendiary (blast) damage where smaller hand grenades do kinetic (frag) / energy damage, and wondrous micro bullet-like plasma bolts when Humanity is still striving with plasma technology. You see what I mean when you examine the different vehicle weapons tiers: rocket = pulsed laser = plasma bolt = rail gun projectile.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The weapon tier paradigm has been discussed before (though perhaps not with that name). To sum up what I remember, there are the camp of realists who argue against long-range plasma projectiles etc and the other side who propose that the weapon tiers are about a linear progression, so that when you research the corresponding tech it functions as an all-out upgrade. I'm guessing that the new alenium mechanic will be used to encourage the player to use a mix of weapon tiers throughout the game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, one of the major complaints about X1 was that the tech tree wasn't very interesting - every new piece of gear was just the previous gear with higher damage / protection numbers.

It's something we're looking at addressing but the progression of the game also has to be considered - for example, making laser weapons and plasma weapons different from each other but with the same level of overall power would be a bad idea (because plasma comes after laser in the tech tree, plasma needs to be better for players to want to invest the resources and time needed to upgrade). We need a bit of a middle path, or perhaps to reshape the tech tree to have a mix of both types of item in there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a couple of issues which I think can be solved with one solution. Part of the complaint is that imagined technology requires some suspension of disbelief (although flying saucers are fine right?) and the difficulty is in making the implementations of that technology fit into enjoyable and rewarding gameplay. A solution, I think, is to separate out the theoretical research and the technical design (possibly both being distinct from the nuts-and-bolts building job).

The progression of the science goes something like bullet-laser-plasma-MAG, tier 1-2-3-4 (which is fine, the necessity of that being linear is another argument). But I'd say that the progression of weapons, physically, doesn't need to look like that. Instead, the weapon-groups could be defined as 1) kinetic projectiles and 2) energy beams. These aren't linear tiers and the energy beam doesn't have to behave like lasers or plasma would. It is not a wave, it is not a particle, it is a brightly coloured, subluminal flashy thing to which you can't apply your conventions (it is science fiction my friends).

These two groups, kinetic and energy weapons, are the domain of the engineers. The groups both get to feel like different weapons, not just another like-for-like iteration of what went before. Functionally, the scientists enable the engineers by passing across technologies, then, the engineers use those theoretical principles in their design. The player needs to invest science resource to gain access to the different technologies but they invest design resource into the weapons of their choice. Don't like the way long range beam weapons work, fine, don't build them, but you have to research the corresponding technology to get reach a full powered kinetic sniper rifle.

This has the secondary benefit of giving your engineers something to do at all times, and also, allowing you to develop your weapons at the same time as devoting your science to the narrative-progressing technologies. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  1. Damage types are different (there lacks a damage type in Xenonauts-1, by the way, as it's not clear whether "incendiary" type stands for thermal (where there is "energy" type already) or blast (explosive), or both!), and if armors are different (not the same ratings whatever the type of damage, as in first game), it's half won. I remember original X-COM's robots being vulnerable to lasers until end of game (their frontal visor, precisely).
  2. Directional armor (used by vehicles) could be generalized to individuals, not necessarily because they are different (though anti-shrapnel vests should protect less from side attacks), but mainly because of the armour deterioration mechanism. It's strange when a hail of shots from the front cripples the back armour plate!
  3. The idea of overlapping  technology lifetimes is interesting. In Xenonauts-1, this occurs only because lighter weapons cost less than heavier weapons, and they get obsolete faster. So, ballistic sniper rifles and LMGs can be used for month (up to six, perhaps). It could occur for other reasons (than cost and armour vulnerability). For example, let's look again at a vehicle turret: Tier 1 is a highly imprecise, long range, ballistic machine gun, those primary function is to suppress anyone caught in the cone of fire. Tier 2 could be a single shot laser, especially suited to destroy static targets (i.e. "explosive damage" in a very small area of effect, not a Xeno-1 rocket-like explosion), with very long range but quite low suppression damage. Tier 3 could be a mid-range plasma caster, with a fairly wide area of effect, that would act like a flame-thrower or the current explosive plasma ball, with no explosive power, only thermal or energy. Plus the long range and imprecise rockets (explosive/kinetic/energy). Tier 4 would renew with the machine gun concept for higher precision, lesser dispersion and greater damage (suppression power shouldn't be very much greater however, as compared to a plasma splashing ball, except if the rain of needles is quite narrow right on the target, and that could mean a lesser radius than ballistic, or a greater number of projectiles per volley). As you see, there are plenty ways to both have some diversity at a given invasion stage, and the feeling of smoothly (not step by step) increasing owns fire power.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One interesting idea would be to have upgrades within a 'tier' of weapon technology.

First generation lasers are all bulky and heavy, as their power sources lack energy density- you get a heavy long-range weapon that blows a couple of holes in any earthly material.

When you reverse-engineer the alien plasma weapon power supply, you can miniaturize laser tech and get laser pistols, sniper rifles, and a repeating laser cannon that takes the role of the LMG. (No laser shotgun equivalent, since that doesn't make any gorram sense).

First-generation plasma weapons use the same power supply, but there's something about heat dissipation or charging time that makes them slow to fire. Mod 1 gives a weapon that spews out a bunch of mostly incoherent plasma in a mostly-aimable spread (filling in the shotgun role, but much slower than ballistic shotguns at first). With further research and refinement, the issues with keeping a plasma bolt coherent over longer distances in a man-portable package get solved, and we get the pistol, carbine, and HMG equivalents (leaving the laser sniper rifle as the best-in-role at that tech level).

Mag weapons combine the three: Accelerate a chunk of highly dense material at the target, keeping it in a single chunk using the technobabble of the plasma weapons, and heating it into a white-hot chunk of melt-their-torso-off as it leaves the barrel using a pulse of coherent light. Has the knockdown power of ballistic weapons while delivering the energy of a plasma bolt at the ranges of a laser, and adaptable into all popular form factors.

If there's enough types of tech to leave one of the major weapon types out of each level (except the first and last), it would add a level of stractical thinking and require that everyone be able to adjust to changing equipment availability, but in any case giving out an inferior version of one type early (and the normal version "on time") also rewards players being able to adapt to the equipment they have available.

Damage "types" only make gameplay sense if players can bring many different types into each mission in order to benefit from attacking where the enemy is weak. That would mean typically having multiple weapon types on the mission; if each soldier has only a main weapon and a sidearm, then the sidearm needs to be MORE effective in some situation to be worth using it for damage type diversity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There should be clear difference in benefits between the weapon types. With CONS and Pros to each tier. It would add more depth to the game when you have a trade off between weapon types and no boring or straight forward that you just jump to the next upgrade. Plus it would also mix up the weapons types per soldiers. It would be nice to see mixed team with different type off weapons. Let me break it down to make more sense. Giving examples

Projectile weapons

Pros: Doesn't require power cells, stock up with magazines fastest weapon reload time. Lighter weapon type so more action per TU to make up for less power.

CON: less damage compared to other weapons.

This could be a benefit for Assaults class to fire more times in close combat losing damage but chance to hit the target increase with the extra two shots. Players could keep projectiles on assault class or upgrade to next type depending on their play styles.

Animations. Watching the bullets or rockets fly as they shoot. A pistol magazine swapped or a new rocket loaded into the launcher while reloading.

Laser Weapons

Pros: Most Accurate weapon with decent damage. This should be the most accurate weapon in the game. Agree with Chris that it shouldn't guarantee a 100% hit but in the hit chance calculator the chances should be much higher to hit with laser over the other weapons. With a trade off in the CONS focuses.

Cons: while lasers will be more accurate over other weapons. Lasers will do more damage than projectiles but would take more TU to reload the cells over the projectile magazines. Lasers will do less damage than plasma but it will be more accurate and faster to reload over plasma. The middle ground between the two. Also laser weapons (expect heavy ones) could not blast through doors or walls like with other weapon types. I think it's a nice trade for a higher accuracy weapon and would give players more options for example with their snipers. Do I upgrade to plasma losing accuracy but get a little extra damage...... This would be fun.

Animations: With lasers you could see a laser point on the targeted unit and when the soldier fires we could see a long line laser beam between the solider and it's target across the battlefield as it hits/misses. The laser shot sound should be like the high pitched laser towers in command and conquer as they fire.

Reload: It would be nice to see and hear when soldiers replace the power cells on the guns or heavy weapons and hear an electric charge sound as the replace cells placed in. A little deeper and louder one with heavier weapons. Last point on lasers in the firaxis XCOM lasers are skipped with a lot of players because it's so close to research plasma while laser comes out that they don't want to spend the money. That is sad to see any weapon added to a game and bearly used. In XCOM reboot, there should be a steeper research requirements between each weapon type would give a much higher feel of accomplishment to get to the next weapons and would give time with each weapon type for players to play with instead of skipping them, Also with Pros and cons per weapons 100 players will have 100 different combination of weapons they prefer with their Soldiers. Some would still go for the more damage (plasma) but some would trade of for a higher accuracy (laser) or more shots per TU (Projetile)

Plasma Weapons

Pros: Hardest hitting between the 3 type to really dish out damage.

Cons: Accuracy is better than projectile but worse then laser. Recharge/reload time is longer then projectile and laser but it have higher damage and can go through obstacles walls if shot from the right angle.

Animations: With Plasma we would see a green glowing light traveling across the battlefield hitting or missing the target with a deep humming sound as they fly. Reload/recharge there could be a clever animation a little different from lasers when soldiers put in the new cells. I could imagine a sound like in ghost busters when the charge packs turned on when cells are replaced/reloaded.

Conclusion: I think developers should focus to make sure all type of weapons have their benefits and not all players will chose the same paths how they arm their soldiers. Animations and animation sounds should also be distinctly different from each other. It's really cool and never boring in XCOM to watch different color weapons and sounds firing off against each other.

What you think guys?

 

 

Edited by BlackSheepxs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Wouldn't first generation of MAG weapons rather accelerate single thin, light, alien material slugs (it's better to gain in speed than in mass)? Speed and profile would ensure range, precision, and amour penetration, and lightness would cause damage to soft targets (like 5.56 mm and dum-dum).
  • Along with the MAG tech, there could be a special explosive ammo against robotic units for sniper rifles (the counterpart of this would be a high invulnerability to some damage types): a kind of heavier penetrator with an EMP payload (the role of the penetrator is not necessarily to pierce the armour, only to be stuck in it). This projectile is too heavy to be fired by the usual sniper/anti-material rifle, but (second generation) MAG tech version of sniper rifle is able to fire two different ammos.
  • I'm not sure about the benefit of firing high-speed, solid, hot bullets, except for incendiary purpose. The main energy deposited through that mean should still be of kinetic form, imho. Another X-COM game uses plasma-encased bullets, that have same properties as ballistic bullets (armour penetration included), except that the minute plasma drop is applied directly in the wound, bypassing any anti-energy/thermal protection: damage is increased and changed to energy type, but that's too much a miniaturized tech for the Xenonauts' setting, I think.
  • As for the shotgun's point, it's the same as for other weapons, in particular the LMG. What's the purpose of a short-range assault rifle? To fire fast, to be lethal at point blank (if aimed at a vital spot, or if no medical care follows), to "allow" for friendly fire at short/medium range (in a rather crowded room/street) and minimize risk for fatal stray shots, to suppress in quite a large area (as compared to a pistol), to minimize damage to environment (fuel tanks), to still get a chance of hitting (several) foe(s) with no aiming, to neutralize unarmoured foes and capture them alive. An added usefulness could be to cripple an armour if armour mitigation and deterioration was not a fraction of total damage received (i.e. in the case armour deteriorates faster with several impacts rather than with one, but I don't know). Per design, as to say, accuracy, range, damage per impact, and stopping power are poor. Why then upgrade those weapons? Because enemies get more tough (more resilient, better armoured, less vulnerable to suppression, resistant to that damage type). If your own troops get more tough in turn, the only drawback in increasing the damage per impact or change the damage type is an increased chance to kill nearby civilians. Technically, laser carbines could use scattering or fast mobile mirrors & lenses to split and redirect, or strafe a single original beam, or emit several shorter-duration beams in the same time, in order to harm/blind/scare in a quite wide cone. The same should work with plasma and MAG carbines. The potential lethality/accuracy of those technologies would be trimmed down to meet the shotgun concept's requirements.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/2/2018 at 9:49 AM, BlackSheepxs said:

Also with Pros and cons per weapons 100 players will have 100 different combination of weapons they prefer with their Soldiers. Some would still go for the more damage (plasma) but some would trade of for a higher accuracy (laser) or more shots per TU (Projetile)

In this example, given the player starts with projectile weapons already, I'm pretty sure 90% of players will stick with ballistic weapons.... because they're just as good as laser and plasma weapons, just different. The research and funds could be better spent elsewhere to get better armour or improving your aircraft or whatever.

If what you're suggesting is that projectile weapons are the MAG guns, so the player is given access to the research for Lasers / Plasmas / MAG weapons early in the game and they're essentially equal to each other - well, that's a better solution, but it still means that people will just pick their preferred type of advanced weapon and it's not worth them investing the research into getting any of the other types. Because they're all equally good, so why would a player spend three times the research points and resources getting all three when it's perfect viable to use just one of them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see your point Chris,

On research: No I'm not suggesting on having access to each weapon type in the begining. Research is the heart of the xcom/UFO/xenonauts games. The exitment to get the weapon upgrade or to the next type of weapon before you get your ass kicked is paramount. That is why I also suggested that we fix that xcom remake (2012) did wrong where the programers made the research time or tech tree so close to able get plasma weapons, anyone who played the game once or looks at the tactical suggestions all skipping laser weapons becuase you could get plasma almost the same time. Why even add weapons into the game when noone who played the game before going to use. That is just silly. So on the contrary to start with all weapons the reseach should actually take longer time or more complicated tree to get the the next weapon. That would make all players think twice if they can afford to skip a weapon type. Still possible but may not pay off for the wait to skip one.

Weapon scaling: Through testing and feedback (from team, Alpha, Beta testing....) the right balance could be found. The weapons should get better ofcourse to worth the effort ballistic>Laser>Plasma>MAG ... (new type) but there could be more depth in tactics and replayability (even with what you use) when you have to crunch the numbers. In early game completting your first research you say for my new recruits I give the ballistics because that extra 2 shots/TU gives me to at least hit the Aliens once (more chance) with my Rookie and give the laser to the soliders who have more kills and experience under their belt. Sure laser is more accurate and at this stage probably can one hit most aliens but you could shoot fewer times with it. So there will be still an arugment to shoot more times and hit at least ones for Rookies at blank range. Eventually ofcurose as the game advance Noraml Rifle/Guns will be obsolete and no point to use at all. In mid game when you have laser with all soldiers and just researched plasma the same argument can be made. Rookie soilders need more accuracy so they keep the laser at this stage they may need to hit the target twice with laser vs once with plasma but at least hit it. Or I liked the idea that lasers have similar damage to plasma but can only be more accurate with aimed shots and will not blast theough barriers. That is a huge trade off to hold on to laser but might worth it to some of your soilders. This is just brainstroming and ideas to make weapons more interesting then just let's get the next ones.

Conclusion: Make weapons types different in feel, look and abilites from each other. Regardless of Pros & Cons, scale the damage up with each new types of weapons enough to make you want to research it but not enough to make it the only viable weapon. Sure you not going to use Normal rifles at late game. They will be useless but as you get to Laser/Plasma/MAG there could be an argument which suits your soilders the best. For example why would I even consider to use a weaker weapon with the roketeer? You will pick the strongest one but with other soilders you may find a long distance shot better with lower damage laser over the higer damage plasma. Then once that soilders accuracy is top notch you may still want to give him plasma and give laser to the noobs for better accuracy.

Just an Idead Chris & Goldhawk team to think about. We all want X2 to be bigger & better and be a huge success. You may like the idea or only just one or two part of the idea to invest time in it. Maybe evolve some new ideas from it. Just have a brainstorm seassion about it.

Edited by BlackSheepxs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been interesting to read, but I have a question to ask. How many people here have played ALTAR Interactive's AfterX series of X-Com-like games? ALTAR Interactive tried doing many of the things that people have suggested here. In Aftershock, there was a large array of competing weapon types - projectile, laser, plasma, psi, sonic and warp,  with each type being introduced later in the game. Each weapon tier was different in terms of damage, range and accuracy. They also introduced ammo types and modifications for each weapon type, and every enemy type had different resistance types to the different weapon tiers. But the takeaway from AfterX was people used projectile weapons throughout most of the game.

 

Accuracy didn't matter. Want an accurate weapon? Make a scope and a gyrostabiliser and stick it on a rifle. Raw damage didn't matter. Put AP or explosive or Acid rounds in a projectile weapon and go for headshots (the only kind of shot) with your snipers. ALTAR did to Aftershock what usually only modders do after a game has been released but it was easy to boil down from the massive list of STUFF which weapons were the most accurate, fired the most shots and did the most damage with the appropriate mods (it was projectile weapons - the first tier that you get - all the way). In Afterlight, they dialed back the weapon types, but projectiles STILL lead the way. The ALTAR experiment over 3 games shows that trying to vary things based on key statistics doesn't work. What happens is that the weapons with the best stats bubble up from the pool and everything else is ignored. You end up with perhaps the sniper rifle from lasers, the assault rifle from projectiles, the shotgun-esque weapon from plasma etc. etc. 

 

If weapons from different tiers were intended to be the same but different, then those differences have to be radically different but not keyed to stats, as keying them to stats didn't work in the AfterX series. Furthermore, the differences in later stage tiers have to be sufficiently enticing for people for put work and time into them. Let's take.. plasma weapons, for example. A nice late-tier weapon. If a plasma weapon did as much damage as an earlier stage laser, what would set it apart? Perhaps the plasma weapon sets things on fire. cover, for example. Or people. Perhaps instead it instantly destroys terrain, so you can destroy cover quickly with a plasma weapon Perhaps all plasma bullets have a 1-tile detonation radius. Perhaps it does everything. Take lasers. Why would I put research into lasers when I have guns?  Perhaps lasers are a beam rather than a bullet style of weapon, which affect every tile they cross into. Perhaps laser have infinite ammo, and overheat harming the operator. Perhaps lasers can blind enemies. Perhaps all of the above. Who knows! But for different tiers to be the same but different, extra effort would have to be put into having those tiers behave differently on the battlefield. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the above nicely echoes what has been said: there are a lot more variables in play than just damage and rate of fire. I'd say that a good contender to differentiate the weapon tiers would be to focus on which classes of gun are available - so lasers wouldn't have their own variants of pistol, shotgun, SMG, rifle, LMG, sniper and rocket launcher, instead they might have just two or three models which have entirely different effective ranges than conventional ballistics. That way there is never an out-and-out upgrade but rather another type of weapon, which fills a particular niche, that you can add to your arsenal.

Then, building on those distinct classes, the uniqueness of the weapon tier can come into effect. So the short range laser (which is neither a pistol nor a shotgun) could have an added suppression effect because it is blinding. The short range weapons in the plasma and MAG tiers may end up being much more powerful, but you'd still keep that little blinding laser around for those situations or play styles that call for it. To promote the player to invest in further research tiers, the late game could introduce enemies which aren't susceptible to the blinding laser, so you can't rely on that tactic alone.

Possibly, it would be better to think of the unique tech effects then create weapon classes to fit. In either case, what I'm getting at is that the motivation to progress needn't just be about pure damage output (you kind of already get that as your soldiers' firepower increases with accuracy).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

All I'm getting out of this thread as that a lot of people really don't understand how real lasers work.  Considering this thread is titled with 'realism' in it, I find that extremely baffling.

Correct, we do not currently have legitimate weaponized lasers (though some people have made some really powerful ones on Youtube) and so there is a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required to use them in a game.  But the technology is real and theoretically possible to make real weapons with them based on that tech.  Did you know that a common laser pointer has an effective blinding range of almost 50 feet, and can be SEEN up to 2.2 miles?  That's just a rinky-dink little keychain laser pointer.  A 500mw (half a watt) laser can do serious damage at over 500 feet, and can be seen up to 22 miles away.  That's HALF a watt. Imagine one powerful enough to be used as a weapon.  Something say around 5 watts.  That would probably be strong enough at 50 feet to punch a hole in solid steel with little effort.  Games seriously downplay the power of a laser weapon, mostly for balance purposes, but sometimes because they didn't bother doing any research on the subject.

My point is, a laser weapon strong enough to deal actual damage to something just be being hit with it is not going to lose any effectiveness on a map the size of the ones ingame.

If you want something that loses effective damage over range, look no further than plasma weapons.  Deadly up close, useless at range. 

Edited by endersblade
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the weapons could be tiered just in the same way you encounter new aliens so different weapon tech types work better(or worse) depending on the aliens you encounter and their resistance/armor(Ceasans could be resistant to kinetic, but not laser. Androns hate plasma, but can resist laser ect) This can be categorized in some way so the player knows and it can be a simple damage modifier. There could be times where they are almost completely resistant which would make you have to correctly go back, do some digging and research and re-arm your troops with the right mix(although this would be hard to implement in this extreme case). Each weapon tech could then have their own merit and get more coverage through the game depending on what aliens spawn. Early game aliens could appear in the late game and still have an advantage if you don't pay attention. Once reaching the MAG tech it could be the elite of them all and burns through pretty much everything it touches which would make it almost a god like weapon to have in all circumstances.

Edited by roxxed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, endersblade said:

All I'm getting out of this thread as that a lot of people really don't understand how real lasers work.  Considering this thread is titled with 'realism' in it, I find that extremely baffling.

Beware, sometimes, what can be baffling is speaking about damage dealt by a laser without taking into consideration the exposure duration, nor the adverse atmospheric properties. If a 500 mW laser deal "serious damage" at 500 feet (150 m), then why do all the special forces in the world wait for equipping themselves with combat lasers? A ballistic bullet delivers between 100 and 1000 J in a very short time. How would this translate in term of power? (granted some of this energy is wasted and absorbed by surrounding tissues). Nowadays cutting and welding industrial lasers have powers in the 1-2 kW range, by the way.

20 hours ago, endersblade said:

My point is, a laser weapon strong enough to deal actual damage to something just be being hit with it is not going to lose any effectiveness on a map the size of the ones ingame.

If you want something that loses effective damage over range, look no further than plasma weapons.  Deadly up close, useless at range. 

Don't forget that focused lasers could be accurate at any range but always less efficient before and after the aimed target. This would be interesting but I don't know if the GC mechanic could implement this. Moreover, as other said, added realism would require that the GC mechanics takes care of the environmental factor and that the alien develop anti-laser counter measure such as broadband smoke emitters. Also, to focus a beam, you have to start with a rather broad beam. Perhaps with need of gravitons here.

As for the particle beam / plasma weapons, I don't know how should truly behave graviton-guided plasma projectiles... so far for the range. But I agree that range would be a nice discriminator between tiers.

In short, what could be interesting is having different accuracy and damage range-related rules for different technologies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say that differentiating a weapon tier, such as lasers, by the variable that their range is unlimited would give them a nice unique feel. Although if one tier were to be differentiated by this variable, would MAG weapons be just as good a contender? I mean, they would suffer bullet-drop but only as they pass the horizon as far as I understand (and I'm not confident I understand a lot!). So if your advocating realism then both tiers might have to have that same property which would reduce their unique feel - at this point you may reduce the quality of gameplay which (IMO) is more important than realism.

Another issues issue is how you make the extended range of lasers/MAG balance nicely. As has been said above, accuracy of the shooter is still going to drop off at those extended ranges so the weapon damage would still be fundamentally limited by the hand-to-squinted-eye coordination of your soldiers. In that way, a long range laser could retain utility as your sniper gets a better and better accuracy stat, however, at the latest stage in the game laser weaponry is two tiers obsolete so lacks the necessary stopping power to put down an elite alien. Balance. You'd only be able to cheese it on really open plan maps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/22/2018 at 11:35 AM, Ninothree said:

I'd say that differentiating a weapon tier, such as lasers, by the variable that their range is unlimited would give them a nice unique feel. Although if one tier were to be differentiated by this variable, would MAG weapons be just as good a contender? I mean, they would suffer bullet-drop but only as they pass the horizon as far as I understand (and I'm not confident I understand a lot!). So if your advocating realism then both tiers might have to have that same property which would reduce their unique feel - at this point you may reduce the quality of gameplay which (IMO) is more important than realism.

Another issues issue is how you make the extended range of lasers/MAG balance nicely. As has been said above, accuracy of the shooter is still going to drop off at those extended ranges so the weapon damage would still be fundamentally limited by the hand-to-squinted-eye coordination of your soldiers. In that way, a long range laser could retain utility as your sniper gets a better and better accuracy stat, however, at the latest stage in the game laser weaponry is two tiers obsolete so lacks the necessary stopping power to put down an elite alien. Balance. You'd only be able to cheese it on really open plan maps.

MAG has a few up and downsides, now assuming a MAG weapon fires a bullet sized slug at extreme speed using a miniature version of currently in development naval railguns, while maintaining compactness and the capability to rapidly reload. in effect it is a standard ballistic gun, but the propulsion of the projectile is no longer supplied chemically by powder..but electrically by the "gun" itself.

benifit, because of alien tech you would have the energy to propel the projectile at extreme speed...no need for the whole casing, just the bullet. the slug goes much faster, so atmosphere and gravity have less impact.

disadvantage, need added recoil compensation...because all the energy put into the fired slug is also pushed backwards. and as more speed is added the friction factor increases proportionally..as such for the slug more and more energy is wasted...for the shooter, this energy is still used to propel said gun into the shooters arm. and unlike lasers, and depending on the source..plasma...you still actually need physical ammo.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/22/2018 at 7:35 AM, Ninothree said:

I'd say that differentiating a weapon tier, such as lasers, by the variable that their range is unlimited would give them a nice unique feel. Although if one tier were to be differentiated by this variable, would MAG weapons be just as good a contender? I mean, they would suffer bullet-drop but only as they pass the horizon as far as I understand (and I'm not confident I understand a lot!). So if your advocating realism then both tiers might have to have that same property which would reduce their unique feel - at this point you may reduce the quality of gameplay which (IMO) is more important than realism.

Another issues issue is how you make the extended range of lasers/MAG balance nicely. As has been said above, accuracy of the shooter is still going to drop off at those extended ranges so the weapon damage would still be fundamentally limited by the hand-to-squinted-eye coordination of your soldiers. In that way, a long range laser could retain utility as your sniper gets a better and better accuracy stat, however, at the latest stage in the game laser weaponry is two tiers obsolete so lacks the necessary stopping power to put down an elite alien. Balance. You'd only be able to cheese it on really open plan maps.

Pardon if this has been said before, but it sounds like you want to tie laser damage to accuracy. I think that would be a really neat way to make the weapon tier feel distinct from others. Higher accuracy means the beam is landed on the alien for longer, dealing more damage. This could be communicated to the player by a "Time to Kill" calculation. 

If the door is opened to soldier stats boosting weapon damage, some weapons could deal damage based on strength/ability to counter recoil. I am not sure what other stats could benefit combat like that though... 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Conductiv said:

disadvantage, need added recoil compensation...because all the energy put into the fired slug is also pushed backwards. and as more speed is added the friction factor increases proportionally..as such for the slug more and more energy is wasted...for the shooter, this energy is still used to propel said gun into the shooters arm. and unlike lasers, and depending on the source..plasma...you still actually need physical ammo.  

You are right if the projectile has a mass equivalent to traditional bullets. Even with a greater speed, I'd say that recoil could be same or even less in the case of MAG weapons, because you could reduce the projectile's mass for  same or even greater kinetic energy. Using alien materials would give the "excuse" for an incredibly light, profiled, yet resistant projectile.

 

In search for differentiating tiers (technologies), perhaps a way could be more complex accuracy and damage reduction laws. If  law for tier 1's accuracy is linear, thus illustrated with a righ-angled triangle based on the ground (highest at short range, and regularly less the larger the range), then law for tier 3 could be linear but with a smaller decrease rate. Law for tier 2's damage could have a pyramid-like (half sandglass) shape, centered on the targeted range (less near the shooter and far away, maximal at target's location. The same for focused plasma and sonic weapons. It should be better if non-linear or more complex, and piece-wise (up to practical range, up to target, ...) laws are used.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...