thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 damn how will the reaper look? hopefully it will look small from a distance :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 damn how will the reaper look? hopefully it will look small from a distance :-) I'm hopeing for the death of rats/rodents from Terry Pratchet's discworld. With it's own little scythe and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey7891 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 hopefully it will look small from a distance :-) can t wait for this game ,i come from the firaxis forums where i was completley dissapointed ,thats not x-com what theyr doing there,but this one is ,titanic work from goldhwak ,all the real x-com fans will join xenonauts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey7891 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 i m new to the forum can someone please direct me to the stretch goal vote ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
targetbsp Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 i m new to the forum can someone please direct me to the stretch goal vote ? It's linked to from the update on kickstart along with details of what each is: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/69341191/xenonauts/posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 It is on the kickstarter page. Incidentally is there anything stopping people voting multiple times to steer the voting in their favour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilrathi Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 i m new to the forum can someone please direct me to the stretch goal vote ? The update with explanations is at http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/69341191/xenonauts/posts The survey itself is at http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CBDTVPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey7891 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 thnx targetbsp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 It is on the kickstarter page.Incidentally is there anything stopping people voting multiple times to steer the voting in their favour? Yes, the page only allows you to vote once. Atleast I can't vote again. Might be something with cookies that you can work around. I havent really explored the possibilities to exploit that survey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey7891 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 thnx guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey7891 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 i voted also for phisycal edition i really want ot buy the game and put it on a shelf ,it deserves it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal Hicks Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Just completed the survey. My top vote went for the "Hire Level Designer". It's a shame that "going Berserk" situation wasn't implemented, I can't believe this was forgotten... This is much more important than adding female portraits. I'll definetely give more cash for these improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilrathi Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Chris, A couple additional thoughts: 1. When does the survey end? Maybe mention that somewhere? Any chance of keeping it open through Monday so people who aren't online can participate (and not gripe that they didn't get a chance to)? 2. How about a FAQ on the Kickstarter site "Why weren't female soldiers included in the demo build?", addressing in a bit more detail why it would be so expensive to model the different sprites and why even female soldier portraits weren't included. From this thread and others and some of the comments on the Kickstarter, it's a question people keep asking and there's a misconception that it could be done easily/cheaply. Having a FAQ specifically on point acknowledging that it's a desirable goal and question of resources (and why) might help head some of that off... (whether or not they get voted in and added is a separate matter, but I feel like if people understand the reasoning - and cost - at least they may be less likely to think it was a conscious design decision) -K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal Hicks Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I don't know why there's people whining so much about the game not having female portraits, seriously, I'm a huge fan of XCOM since I was a kiddo, and I couldn't care less about the woman in the game... What's the point of having the portraits if, in the battle, they'll look like men? For me it's a waste of funds. It's much more important to add the Berserk situation, this was in the original game and should not be left out! It's one of the great memories I have from this game.... I wan't the soldiers to go BERSERK! I'm going Berserk right now... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Not to hijack the thread, but Miles - I agree with much of what you say and I'd like to see female soldiers in the game, too. I think one issue with your analysis is that the debate typically hasn't been "add female portraits to the game" (which obviously carries with it a lower marginal cost - although there's the more general issue that the portrait artist seems to be nearing capacity right now) but that it has been "adding female soldiers with fully-differentiated sprites" to the game - in other words, a full realization of female characters versus a portraits-only concept. I think for awhile there was a thought of "don't do it unless you can do it right", as in have different character models, and adding in different character models actually is a really big time and resource issue, which has been out of Goldhawk's price range. Just wanted to clarify the issue since I don't think it's as simple as saying Goldhawk/old timers didn't want to spend a "low amount" of resources on female soldiers because to fully realize female soldiers would actually require a large amount of resources. I've been following that issue for quite a while actually. The fact is, even though that ship has sailed, and the KS proposed stretch goals in the first updates clearly said it would just be adding a few portraits, you still have people on the forums (or on KS) shutting down the idea - just a while ago for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellstormer Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Personally I'd rather see more content, more maps, more tilesets, more missions than lose out on those things for anything else in that poll currently. More diversity in maps/missions = greater replay ability. If some want to take their ball and go home because they don't get their way well you can't please everyone <shrug> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 My voting - hey no one said it was a secret ballot. Having done that, I'd not necessarily follow my selfish vote. If the developers feel they are going to make plenty of development cash form Linux/Mac ports then they should do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I've been following that issue for quite a while actually. The fact is, even though that ship has sailed, and the KS proposed stretch goals in the first updates clearly said it would just be adding a few portraits, you still have people on the forums (or on KS) shutting down the idea - just a while ago for example. Miles a few of us pre-kickstarter preorders has reconciled with the idea that Females can/will be modded into the game post release by some ambitious modder. So we expect to get it regardless. That might help explain why we are more concerned about other things. PS. is reconciled the right word? probably not but I'm too lazy to correct it. I'm hopeing my point gets across anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilrathi Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) I've been following that issue for quite a while actually. The fact is, even though that ship has sailed, and the KS proposed stretch goals in the first updates clearly said it would just be adding a few portraits, you still have people on the forums (or on KS) shutting down the idea - just a while ago for example. Fair enough, and I wasn't arguing with you, just pointing out that the issue hasn't always been one of investing low resources into adding female soldiers - to actually do the "full" job would be a significant cost and that was the historical basis for the approach. As for what people on the forums and KS say, obviously that's part of the debate but unless it's someone from Goldhawk specifically saying it, I don't think it's fair to view that as indicative of what the developer or even majority of the community thinks. People will disagree on most anything on the internet and Chris has been pretty clear in his approach to the issue, including recognizing that it was a desirable goal in posts (that I can't track down but I know I saw this a.m.!). Frankly, I agree with you in disagreeing with the "women won't make my game more fun" school of thought - I have women in my party/squad in basically every game and would like to see them here, too - but I wouldn't take a healthy debate (and the reality of resource limitations on the part of an indie studio) to reflect on the developers themselves. FWIW, level designer and female soldiers topped my list in the polls. In any case, there's a thread dedicated to this topic at "http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/1892-Why-female-soldiers" if you're interested. Chris - one thing re: the survey. You added indoor missions in, making for a total of 15 choices, but there are still only 14 spots for the rankers, so one has to be left blank. -Kilrathi Edited May 12, 2012 by Kilrathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) Miles - Smoke grenades are already in the game actually, just not in the public build. I don't want to add major gameplay mechanics like prone etc with the Kickstarter, essentially because they'd have a major effect on the combat model and I think we're too late in development to make a change that big (also I'd argue the squad sizes are too large for it, as opposed to 4-6 as in JA2). Thanks for the clarification. I'm happy to have at least smoke grenades, since that will at least make one way to flank the enemy without getting shot (and to my understanding the only way on open terrain maps). Re: the women, we actually put it at $200k because we thought it would excite people more than the other stuff and they'd be willing to raise their pledge to get it. So it's esssentially the opposite of the conclusions you've drawn, although I can see why you'd think that in hindsight. While I'm quite sure the KS can easily reach and topple the $200K mark, you've got to see how badly it shows your interest for making female gamers feel welcome. Basically, you're saying "We don't mind not having female soldiers if the KS doesn't reach that goal (a 400% over the initial goal)". At the same time, there's enough interest for more male portraits. And for the record I know you're not saying or even thinking that, but that's the consequence if the pledges don't reach $200K. Most game dev teams have long understood the importance of welcoming diversity (for the male/female aspect that's been a practice for years, even though it trailed racial diversity by a long stretch) and wouldn't think about leaving that out, even if they had to cut corners elsewhere to achieve it (which you're telling us the KS women soldiers proposal isn't, considering you were happy asking for even more portraits from your artist with the 200$ pledges). Basically you're asking people's pledge to fix your oversight. I understand it's mostly oversight and bad communication, and I'd also want you to use almost everything if it can bring more money to the development. All I'm trying to achieve is let you understand those mishaps made it a loaded issue (for good reason, but you can disagree on that), and by offering it in the strech goals you run the risk of having people put it in last place, which would leave you a freaking nightmare were the KS not to reach that goal. I'm a Linux user, I won't play the game if it's Windows only, and KS users do favor Linux/Mac compatibility, yet I still believe having women soldiers in the game it a more important issue (especially considering how much it's going cost). Even though having female portraits won't add much for me. EDIT: Just to convey the message better: would you imagine a KS having as a stretch goal "if we reach $200K, we'll add black soldiers in the game"? Oh, and by this time I'm sure you must have wanted to kill yourself hundreds of times for not having gone with a 3D engine Edited May 12, 2012 by Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilvy the Astronomer Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Personally, I think that having female soldiers isn’t so important; it seems like a lot of effort to essentially have some troops with longer hair. But having said that, I understand why others feel it should be a priority as it’s a deeper social issue and there is strong feeling in the community. It just seems that a lot of resources would have to go into it – resources that could be better spent on other things. For example, I think it’s a real shame that more mission types (Hive aside) and secondary objectives didn’t even feature as an option on the survey. Those kinds of things are what would add a lot of depth, diversity and replayability to a game – certainly more than “tall grass”. (Big thumbs up for the greater variety of NPCs, though!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
targetbsp Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Even though having female portraits won't add much for me. Then why are you arguing for it so much and seemingly offended when someone is against the idea? Has any female actually told you they feel unable to play a game that doesn't have female characters in or are you just assuming this is a problem? From a very quick straw poll I don't know any female gamers that care and I'm kind of struggling with the concept that any actually would. Personally, 10 seconds after starting the mission I won't care whether my soldiers are male or female. Only how far away they are from the aliens and how good a shot they are. So for me I would have to fall into the camp of considering a lot of effort on this front wasteful. Having said that, if a lot of people want it then I'm all in favour of it. It just seems pointless if those arguing for it are doing so because they think it's the politically correct thing to do if no-one is actually that bothered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 For one, I'm definitely not for it because of political correctness. I'm for it because it will improve my experience of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilvy the Astronomer Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Personally, 10 seconds after starting the mission I won't care whether my soldiers are male or female. Only how far away they are from the aliens and how good a shot they are. So for me I would have to fall into the camp of considering a lot of effort on this front wasteful. Having said that, if a lot of people want it then I'm all in favour of it. It just seems pointless if those arguing for it are doing so because they think it's the politically correct thing to do if no-one is actually that bothered. Yes, what he said! That's it right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilrathi Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'll duck out of this discussion after this but I still like my idea from another thread - open up another slot of $200 support that will be for portraits on female soldiers (or maybe just portraits generally) (another 15-20 portraits/sponsorship levels), then use that cash to pay for the portrait artist and implementation of female portraits in the game as a stand-alone not a stretch goal. I'm not sure if the economics work out or if the portrait artist can handle the extra work, so maybe it's not possible, but that way the issue is resolved, the new tier pays for the implementation and it's not seen as "taking away" from another stretch goal. Seems more win-win to me than making it an either/or. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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