Jump to content

Alien tactics against increasingly competent Xenonauts forces.


brad

Recommended Posts

Will the aliens change their tactics in response to the player becoming better? It seems like in X-COM the only thing the aliens did was use better ships, better equipment, and tougher soldiers; which is a cheap way of ramping up the difficulty.

It seems like in the beginning of the game the aliens shouldn't look at Earth's forces as any kind of threat and they should take risks like not using escorts around supply ships, attacking in daylight, etc.

However, as the player shoots down more and more alien craft, repels terror missions, and takes down alien bases the aliens should use slightly more advanced tactics such as:

Launching multiple terror missions at once in places far away from each other.

Attacking Xenonaut bases after UFO recovery missions have been launched since the base may only be protected by rookies and injured soldiers.

Landing an empty supply ship to act as a decoy. When the Xenonaut drop ship approaches, multiple alien battleships ambush it.

Strapping mind-controlled civillians with explosives and sending them running towards Xenonaut troops.

Weapons solely designed to target humans so that Earth forces can't reverse engineer it. Examples include biological/chemical weapons and the brainsucker launcher from Apocalypse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While this is an idea, and some of them will be implemented, there is a very real problem of making the game either a. too hard, or b. too unforgiving.

Some of these difficulties might be overcomable if you know they are going to happen, but if you send out your squad only to lose you last base to a surprise alien attack, then that's just annoying, and may put some people off the game

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Difficulty balance is hard in any game, but I rather be beaten by my enemy because they did something clever than because they whipped out a bigger gun.

Also, I don't think the player SHOULD be able to win every mission, or send out forces to take on every shot down UFO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then you create a game that isn't fun, because the player cannot win. I think that there should be interesting and changing tactics, don't get me wrong, but a number of those you suggested were examples where if you don't react correctly, or have the correct equipment/units ready, you will basically lose the game, or be set back a long way.

Now for a game like Dark souls, that's fine. For Xenonauts, that's only fine on hardcore setting

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What Xenonauts seems like it'll do is escalation. The aliens get better equipped and tougher (basic Caesan Guards getting replaced with Caesan Elites or something), and increasing numbers of ships every wave. So there's a good chance that you won't be able to intercept everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

on more advanced missions, aliens could ambush soldiers right on the battlescape like this:

2-3 aliens hide in buildings at windows aiming at a certain bottleneck on the map.

1 or 2 aliens could serve as lure for the others, giving them easy firefight and retreating to a point where soldiers need to follow them right through the bottleneck (if they whant to chase them fast enough to catch up).

or let them use "other" equipment, not just "better" stuff, like weak anti-personal mines or more aliens with area effect weapons (like stun grenades, not only alien grenades).

in a mission where you shoot down a ufo the primary target for the aliens should be to protect the crash site till the engineers repaired the ufo to a point where it can fly short distances again.

having this in mind the aliens should be more the camping/ambushing race, giving every soldier a hard time wich tries to rush the map.

they should do this atleast after mission 10 - 20 when they learned that the xenonauts raid every crashsite of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the Goldhawk will do well not to stray to far from the formula in this respect. I know I would ragequit if I had my base taken over every time I sent out every able soldier in the barracks to battle the increase in ufo activity in the later stages of the game.

Though I know every time is not what you meant :)

I (want to) believe that as the story progresses and Xenonauts get better gear, the necessary change in difficulty should mean increasingly better equipped Aliens, harder Alien races and harder ufos should start showing up. This gives you new challenges and keeps the formula fresh.

At some point you can start putting in hard secondary objectives in tactical missions, or have governments demanding higher monthly ratings to increase/keep their monthly payment. Just basically upping the ante a little bit. But those brutal ambush type attacks that you're mentioning, I think should be reserved for the hardest difficult setting of the game, if added at all. You can always mod the game yourself after release to make the Aliens drop kick you if that's what you're looking for :) Have them swarm you with battleships on day one if that's what you like!

I understand the wish for a difficult game. I love a good challenge, that's one of the reasons I like these types of games. But the harder you make it the less people are gonna enjoy it, except a few die-hard guys like us of c!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Though I know every time is not what you meant :)

Haha, no. I just meant that in later portions of the original X-COM it got easy even if you didn't use blaster bombs and psi, and there should be a way to increase the difficulty without necessarily having to introduce new aliens and weapons.

Ideally, the game would look at your current score/tech level/etc to see if and how it should ramp up the difficulty.

Low - medium score: the aliens don't consider Earth forces a threat and are careless.

High score: The aliens start becoming aggressive.

High score for several consecutive months: The aliens start getting desperate.

Also, using a scaling system would cause the aliens to back off if the player started getting lower scores.

Additionally, I never said you couldn't use the same tactics against the aliens. I know some people who hated the suicide bomber aliens from Apocalypse, so they started strapping high explosives to their robot X-COM soldiers in retaliation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A scoremessuring AI - controlling the flow of the game from the Alien's perspective is preferable I agree. And I guess to some degree, the Aliens do respond to how good you're doing. (Correct me if I'm wrong here).

But a full on fluent difficulty curve is hard to implement from a game balance viewpoint, And can be cheated pretty easily if you know what you're doing.

The game becomes easier to read in some ways too, because after some trial and error, you know that if you ace the "last Terror mission" for the month, Aliens are gonna drop the hammer on you the very next. And by doing that, the fear of the unknown starts to fade away.

However, that the Aliens uses tactics that are to their own advantage does feel more natural then them just smashing head-strong against a concrete wall day after day. So I am all for some dirty tactics, just not too much. And if its something that's not supposed to happen too often, I fear the development to implement it might be to costly for the budget for this game. But I might be wrong :)

Edited by Lobster Man Commander
Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, that the Aliens uses tactics that are to their own advantage does feel more natural then them just smashing head-strong against a concrete wall day after day. So I am all for some dirty tactics, just not too much. And if its something that's not supposed to happen too often, I fear the development to implement it might be to costly for the budget for this game. But I might be wrong :)

I agree with you, and I don't. I agree that there should be some interesting, unusual, unexpected tactics; just not dirty ones (which to me implies all of a sudden the sh[aving cream] hits the fan and you spend the next few hours recovering enough to continue the game as normal.

I'm more interested in varied mission types. Perhaps where the terror mission is mind controlled NPC soldiers and aliens fighting together, and there is extra exp in it if you can kill the aliens but save the humans. Or perhaps you find out that there is a special kind of leader alien, but you don't know what base their in. And maybe they change base from time to time. So do you attack all the bases you know of? Or do you try and intercept these UFOs going between bases, but not blow them up with super powerful weaponry, then fly down there and recover the alien while his men battle to the death around him (ie tougher aliens). Extra exp here for capturing him.

What I mean is interesting missions, with variety, and these for instance need no extra animations, or models etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dirty tactics is a broad notion I agree. I won't stand for persistent ambush-type attacks, or plain old cheating behavior.

But I think the Aliens could theoretically be able to do everything that Xenonauts do,

but to their advantage... To a certain degree.

I think this type of game mechanics are a great way to immerse the player in to the universe and make it believable. I have made some posts on the ":)Base Defense" thread regarding the same subject.

I think your example of a synopsis Alien leader-type is a great way to adhere to this mindset.

Edited by Lobster Man Commander
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is what I imagined to modulate the difficulty of the game.

If I'm not mistaken, the game begins during the cold war, so the USA and the USSR (at least) are both heavily defended. During the first few years, the game could spawn low tech fighter squadrons on the world map and low tech soldiers on battle maps to help the xenonauts. Of course, these friendly units are not xenonauts (they use conventional weapons and armor) and therefore are no match for the aliens. The tiniest victory on their side would come at a huge cost. Their losses would be such that they would progressively disappear from the board.

This could trigger some interesting events on the world map. Like rescue missions where the player must help a governmental military base against an invasion. If the player fails to help them on time, the base disbands and it no longer spawns units to help the player in its territory. Or the base could start spawning mind controlled soldier which would attack cities and such. I think this idea has potential.

It would also improve the difficulty curve in my opinion. Right now, the beginning of the game is quite punishing and not really interesting. The player starts alone, with little radar coverage, a chunk of soldiers and equipment. Nothing really happens, nothing he can see anyway. If you want to make things easier, you have to give him a huge amount of cash to build other bases and it ruins the pleasure to actually grow by oneself. As the game develops, he gets more radar coverage, more weapons, more soldiers, more fighters, more bases. The only way the aliens become more threatening on the world map is by increasing the numbers. More ships, bigger ships, more bigger ships. It eventually becomes repetitive.

With friendly AIs, the player starts with good radar coverage. The AIs even manage to take down some UFOs. The player can see what happens almost anywhere on the world map and act when he wants. And when he does he gest some friendly AIs on the battelfield. Does it sound easy? Of course it is, it's the point. Another good thing is that the game doesn't need to give the player one trillion dollars to make things interesting from the start. In fact, interesting things are already happening on the map, even if he only has one base. UFO popping, AI squadrons intercepting, squadrons destroyed, UFO shot down. Ally bases under attack. Well, maybe you wouldn't enjoy a lively world map, but I sure would love it. The player could pick his fights, help his allies when they are failing. As the game progresses, the aliens become stronger and wipe out military base so fast that the player can't save them all, so that these friendly AIs start to dissappear. It becomes more difficult one step at a time. The player has to build more bases if he wants to see what happens. He has less and less friendly units popping on the battlemap. This is how I would do it. I would give progressively the player the responsability to save Earth.

In easy mode, the friendly AI could lag one technological step behing the player, so that it can help the player during his whole playthrough.

In hard mode, the friendly AI could refuse to give the player its radar coverage and keep arming its troops with M16 til their quick end.

Lots of possibilities. And not necessarily a lot of coding involved.

Edited by Nemeo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well not a lot more art work (perhaps), but I do believe that there would be a WHOLE lot of coding and balancing, and a major shift away from the X-Com formula, which might alienate those people who really want it.

Plus this formula worked for X-Com, why shouldn't it work for Xenonauts?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm really not, but it is maybe a wee bit late in the game cycle to implement some of these ideas. A few of them have been brought up before, though not as a whole like you have, and I believe they were mainly rejected for removing victory from the player, making you feel less useful. You are supposed to be this elite group, humanities last and only hope against the alien threat. If regular human armies can do it...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That and visual confusion with all these extra icons flying about.

That said, some of the things you've mentioned look like they will be in, but not in the same way.

-There was a mid-game tech is something like a tech-transfer. End result, the smaller ships stop appearing as its assumed that local forces can handle them. This could also upgrade local forces in Tactical with laser tech.

-Local military and paramilitary forces being present in missions. Mostly terror missions (which can be either against civilian targets or military bases) but they could be present on other missions. They don't hunt down aliens though, more guards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that it could become a bit confusing. However, I'm not talking about hundreds of squadrons and bases. Maybe one or two bases per continent and no more than one or two squadrons at a time. If they halve the size of their icons and grey them out, I think the map would remain readable.

These AIs, anotherdevil, would not be competitors, they are not to remain the whole game. They are here to help newcomers and to smoothen early gameplay. Building a base and pressing the x4 speed until something show up in radar range isn't that fun. These AIs would eventually disappear from the game and only the player would remain as the last hope against the alien threat. The player would see all these friendly dots battling against the evil alien and he would see them disappear one by one, leaving him as the sole defender of humanity. I find this actually more engaging than the original "Earth is a void and totally defenseless world we all count on you" scenario. It's just my opinion, of course.

I also agree when you say that it's a bit late to put it in the game, but you won't have me believe that it would require a lot of coding. I'm a bit of a programmer myself, you know.

Anyway, if I were you, I would not raise the "stick to the xcom formula" banner too high. We all know that xenonauts will have major differences with previous x-coms. Some bad, some awesomely great, but in any case this is a good thing. As good as it was, this is a 20 year old formula and the 50 undergrown weirdos who want Xenonauts to be an an "x-com apocalypse" with increased resolutions won't be enough to pay for Goldhawk's bills. New era, new players.

Edited by Nemeo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I realise they aren't competitors, I do, but it just seems that if you can do it, why can't they?

The game is supposed to focus on the player, and while as Sathra said there is some involvement of the rest of the world, it is supposed to be all about you. While waiting for the next encounter may not be that fun to you, to others that sort of game pacing, where you hve an intense amount of missions followed by the calm before the next storm is perfect.

I personally like the idea, I'm just brainstorming against it. I also don't think it'll appear in time for the game completion though. Just being realistic.

X-Com formula is what this game is about. It's X-Com, but modern, with Goldhawks own interpretations of it. If you want the 'New Era, new players' XCOM, it's being made by 2K... Just saying, a lot of people are here on this site because they want a new game that feels like X-Com, not some new age POS FPS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

X-Com formula is what this game is about. It's X-Com, but modern, with Goldhawks own interpretations of it. If you want the 'New Era, new players' XCOM, it's being made by 2K... Just saying, a lot of people are here on this site because they want a new game that feels like X-Com, not some new age POS FPS

"People here want a real old school x-com! If you disagree then go play 2K's FPS!"

Seriously, dude.

Edited by Nemeo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hush, don't start a fight. Either of you.

While it does sound like a good idea (and doesn't UFO2ET plan for something like this?), it is too late in development to really add it, and Chris has already stated that having a more direct NPC effect on the geoscape would not be fitting with the theme of the game.

Which is : you start small and grow steadily as best you can to counter the increasingly large and powerful alien invasion while struggling with financial and material limitations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Sathra, wasn't trying to start one.

@Nemeo, I have said a number of times that I both agree with you, and am providing sounding board commentary. But as I have also said, it just doesn't fit with the game (ala Sathra's post)

Also I don't see how fighting more and more aliens, with more and more powerful weapons will necessitate boring gameplay. I mean isn't that what every game does? Plus put in the different races, different mission types, different tech and craft for both you and the aliens, and I think there will be plenty to keep people engaged. Just like X-Com has done for some people for the past 20 odd years!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for not commenting earlier. In the game, the difficulty kinda appears naturally by harder aliens appearing with time - aliens start getting grenades in the early-mid game, then develop psionic powers that increase in power etc. Fundamentally I'd like to have 'smarter' aliens as the game goes on but I just don't know how advanced we'll be able to make the AI so I can't promise anything.

The Geoscape AI is reactive to a degree - the background missions are generated based on a ticker that you need to stay on top of to prevent the aliens forming a positive feedback loop and overwhelming you, but there's also aggressive missions that spawn based on your performance and actively try to destroy the player.

@Nemeo - that's actually quite an interesting idea, one that I'd not thought of before. It would help solve the annoying early-game problem of limited coverage quite nicely and would provide a nice balancing act. You'd have to expand into the areas where the local forces had been destroyed, but you wouldn't initially be punished too hard for being undermanned. Plus it'd help add to the whole "We're not alone" feeling in the game, where it's meant to feel like a real world.

I'll add it to my 'think about in beta' list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see how adding radar sites makes much difference in the game.

Current method is limited coverage and fast forward till contact.

Alternate method is more coverage and fast forward till contact.

Both methods you start fighting (or pursing) in less than a minute of real time once you hit the fast forward button.

But to keep the central feel of the game you'd still need that pressure of not being behind the curve on the alien invasion so more radar coverage early would require a faster alien invasion. Net effect should be same scale of actual play (interceptions/squad level combat) in real time just the pace of the game clock would be different. The goal isn't to make the game any easier by overpowering our squads with too much experince/loot while the aliens are still scouting.

The other change would be cosmetic; it would be the 'imersion' factor and that is so subjective. One person wants to keep the isolated elite feel and the other wants a tad more 'realisim' and have signs that other countries are attempting to defend themselves.

I prefer the original formula where it wasn't broken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is the inherent problem that with more coverage, your planes need more fuel to get to the distant targets. then they wont have any fuel to fight the alien spacecraft. So in this scenario you either don't shoot anything down, or you wait till they get closer, in which case what's the point of the extra coverage?

Yay for Nemeo's idea!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well the human bases would also have interceptors, I'd imagine. Probably ones significantly worse than yours but they'd act as a brief speedbump for the aliens while your organisation was still stepping up to the task of definding the entire world by themselves...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...