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Multiple Ammo Types - Solving the UI Problem


kabill

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I've been working on adding support for multiple ammo types in XCE. As anticipated, the major issue is the UI, both technically and in terms of player interaction. I'll probably be able to handle the former but could do with some thoughts on the latter.

My three current ideas are these:

1) Change a right-click on the ammo box to cycle through available ammos for a weapon.

2) Change a right-click on the ammo box to change the weapon box temporarily into a selector for ammo type. You then click on one of the ammo types which then returns the weapon selection to normal but changes the equipable ammo type.

3) Same as 2) but the ammo list stays in the UI until a further right-click returns it to normal (and the weapon ammo box displays the default ammo for ease of access when you don't care about extra ammo types).

The first option is probably the simplest technically to implement but might be a pain if there's quite a few ammo types you're dealing with. The second option will be more complex to implement and will limit the maximum number of ammos that can be assigned to a weapon (because there's only really space for ~4 ammo types to be shown at once) but will make it easier to find the ammo type you want. The third option would be the most complex but make it a bit easier to equip multiple ammo types.

I think personally I have a preference for the first option because of its simplicity but wanted to other opinions on usability. Also, if anyone has any other ideas about how it could be implemented then I am happy to hear them. I might end up having to make a special button or something anyway to get it to work technically, so potentially adding another button somewhere might work (but there's not really any space for it in the UI as is and I'm disinclined to try and redesign that).

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i like this idea, but im a bit confussed about two things:

-does this mean you'll be capable of make multiple ammo types for gc weapons like tugsten core for heavier punch or unicorn farts for more speed and that kind of variable effects right?

-also if this is possible how you will use this in a mission, because..i mean imagine you are using standard rifle ammunition but then you found a sebilian who have a major weakness for broccoli, so i want to change to my brocoli amunution. Do you have to spend the current cartridge of whatever kind of ammo you have and then reload the new one? , or you can just "load" (dragging and droping in the weapon) the new cartridge directly(as vainilla) but losing your older ammo inside?.

because IIRC you arent capable of UNLOAD your current weapon right?

(rifle shoot twice, you cant unload that cartridge with 18 bullets into your inventory..or im wrong >_<?)

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i like this idea, but im a bit confussed about two things:

-does this mean you'll be capable of make multiple ammo types for gc weapons like tugsten core for heavier punch or unicorn farts for more speed and that kind of variable effects right?

-also if this is possible how you will use this in a mission, because..i mean imagine you are using standard rifle ammunition but then you found a sebilian who have a major weakness for broccoli, so i want to change to my brocoli amunution. Do you have to spend the current cartridge of whatever kind of ammo you have and then reload the new one? , or you can just "load" (dragging and droping in the weapon) the new cartridge directly(as vainilla) but losing your older ammo inside?.

because IIRC you arent capable of UNLOAD your current weapon right?

(rifle shoot twice, you cant unload that cartridge with 18 bullets into your inventory..or im wrong >_<?)

Good point.. unload option can be only for unused ammo... if you unload and put broccoli ammo, it means you already need only broccoli..

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because IIRC you arent capable of UNLOAD your current weapon right?

(rifle shoot twice, you cant unload that cartridge with 18 bullets into your inventory..or im wrong >_<?)

Right click in the soldier equipment screen unloads the current clip from a weapon.

Guys let the new CE Version get Bugfree for Steam and normal before other planed things comming in. O.K.

Nothing I'm doing is making its way into release builds currently and fixing the current Steam build isn't something I can work on since llunak did all of that himself (so I'm not detracting from fixing time by working on other things). So I'll continue to have these discussions, thanks!

It could be like air/vehicle weapon. Press it to make a selection screen and again press to select. The press and dont release to put wherever you want, or right click to transfer inventory.

I think that would basically be like option 2) since it would need to be done with a right-click (because you need left-click to select/drag the ammo afterwards).

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The first option feels most organic, I think.

...on the other hand, then the ammo UI functionality would be different than with grenades. I've always thought the grenade selection system was a bit clunky. Should that be changed to work with similar logic as this?

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...on the other hand, then the ammo UI functionality would be different than with grenades. I've always thought the grenade selection system was a bit clunky. Should that be changed to work with similar logic as this?

Dunno. I'd argue that having a list, even in a separate tab, is better than having to cycle through items to get to the one you want.

The inconsistency of UI functions is something that bothers me, though. But right-click seems to be the best choice, since it's actually duplicating what you can already do with double-left-click so you're not actually losing any functionality by repurposing it.

I suppose a fourth option would be to have an 'ammo' tab (maybe repurposing the 'rockets' tab?) and just listing everything there. Actually, this would be vastly easier than anything else technically speaking as I don't need to care about matching ammos and weapons, cycling through ammo selections or controlling for whether ammos have been unlocked through research. But it's also fairly inelegant and overall makes the equip screen UI worse than it was (which no change should be doing).

I've now thought of a fifth option, though, that works like option 3) but displays the ammo types for the weapon in question in a list where the weapons/whatever are displayed. That would get rid of the limitation on the number of ammo types that could be assigned as space isn't an issue and would be easier to implement because I can borrow more from existing code and the selection process will work better.

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Dunno. I'd argue that having a list, even in a separate tab, is better than having to cycle through items to get to the one you want.

Then I vote for #2. (If I've understood correctly that it's the same functionality as the grenades have now)

I just hope the UI stays clean, fast and easy to use. Also, consistency with the grenade UI would be preferable.

Edited by Skitso
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The inconsistency of UI functions is something that bothers me, though. But right-click seems to be the best choice, since it's actually duplicating what you can already do with double-left-click so you're not actually losing any functionality by repurposing it.

Right click already equips the ammo, and I bet I wouldn't be the only one to dislike seeing that changed to some less needed action.

I haven't looked at how the weapons/ammo list is implemented in the code, but from UI point of view, I think the best option would be if multiple possible ammos for a gun simply continued next to the first ammo, and line-wrapped. Meaning, if a gun could use 4 types of ammo, 1st one would be where it is now, and the remaining 3 would be next to each other in another row below it.

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Right click already equips the ammo, and I bet I wouldn't be the only one to dislike seeing that changed to some less needed action.

Yes, for sure. But since double-left click does the same thing, you're not actually losing any functionality.

That said, double-left could be used instead leaving right to do what it does now. That would create more consistency, since right-clicking currently auto-equips but also auto-unequips (when used on an equipped item) while double-left only auto-equips and cannot be used to auto-unequip. So that would leave right-click as the dedicated auto-(un)equip interaction in all contexts. However, double-clicking to access a new menu/list isn't consistent with the way in which menu/list access works elsewhere in the game (and to me isn't as intuitive as right-clicking), hence my (original?) preference for using right-click.

I haven't looked at how the weapons/ammo list is implemented in the code, but from UI point of view, I think the best option would be if multiple possible ammos for a gun simply continued next to the first ammo, and line-wrapped. Meaning, if a gun could use 4 types of ammo, 1st one would be where it is now, and the remaining 3 would be next to each other in another row below it.

Not sure I agree. I suspect this would look messy and would bloat the weapon selection list, especially in a mod that made much use of the feature.

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However, double-clicking to access a new menu/list isn't consistent with the way in which menu/list access works elsewhere in the game (and to me isn't as intuitive as right-clicking), hence my (original?) preference for using right-click.

Apparently there are many for whom right click is not intuitive at all (just consider how many couldn't find out about switching fire mode), and I can't think of any UI element where right click would work like this, so it seems that none of your suggested options would work well usability-wise. So if you really want to go this way of needing to activate the ammo options in some way, it'd be probably better to have a dropdown-list-like arrow next to the ammo or some UI element like that.

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So if you really want to go this way of needing to activate the ammo options in some way, it'd be probably better to have a dropdown-list-like arrow next to the ammo or some UI element like that.

I'm fine with that as long as the grenade selection thingy works with the same logic.

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Apparently there are many for whom right click is not intuitive at all (just consider how many couldn't find out about switching fire mode), and I can't think of any UI element where right click would work like this, so it seems that none of your suggested options would work well usability-wise. So if you really want to go this way of needing to activate the ammo options in some way, it'd be probably better to have a dropdown-list-like arrow next to the ammo or some UI element like that.

See, that was my very first thought but I can't find a space to put it on the screen, hence why I was looking to utilise the existing ammo selection box. But perhaps it's worth considering making some slightly more substantial tweaks to the equipment screen to make it work rather than cramming something into the existing format which doesn't quite work.

I'm fine with that as long as the grenade selection thingy works with the same logic.

I'm wondering, now: do you mean grenades or rockets? I'm not quite sure what your problem with grenade selection is (and am not sure why it would work as a drop-down selection) but it would make sense if you mean rockets instead.

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I'm wondering, now: do you mean grenades or rockets? I'm not quite sure what your problem with grenade selection is (and am not sure why it would work as a drop-down selection) but it would make sense if you mean rockets instead.

What I meant was, what ever you decide to do with the UI, please keep the selection mechanism the same with both (grenades and ammo) buttons. To be honest, I can't even remember how the rocket system differs from grenades. (I'm not at my computer atm) Anyhow, wouldn't it be wise to have identical systems and logic regardless of the item you are choosing, whether it's ammo, grenades or rockets?

Edited by Skitso
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What I meant was, what ever you decide to do with the UI, please keep the selection mechanism the same with both (grenades and ammo) buttons. To be honest, I can't even remember how the rocket system differs from grenades. (I'm not at my computer atm) Anyhow, wouldn't it be wise to have identical systems and logic regardless of the item you are choosing, whether it's ammo, grenades or rockets?

But the systems for grenades and ammo are already different (grenades displayed in a list on their own; ammos displayed next to the weapons which use them). Or perhaps you mean in terms of what the different button-presses do (in which case I've possibly been misunderstanding you from the start!).

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In spite of having done quite a lot of work on this, I think actually I'm going to shelve it, at least for the time being. There's several reasons:

- Most obvious is the UI issue discussed here that I can't seem to find a good solution for.

- On top of that, there's some other UI issues that might be problematic like communicating to the player what type of ammunition is loaded at any given time. The Rocket Launcher does this by displaying an image of the rocket type but that's not necessarily a good solution for other weapons as: 1) that's where the ammo count goes; and 2) different ammo types have different dimensions which might not scale well with the weapon they're displayed with.

- UI issues aside, on reflection this feature doesn't add much by itself. The only things that of significance controlled by the ammo type are the damage done by the weapon and the explosion radius. That's not insignificant but actually doesn't give a lot of scope for variation/trade-offs, certainly not enough to make the effort with the UI worthwhile.

I'm not necessarily giving up on this entirely but given these problems I think there's more useful things I could be doing with my time at the moment.

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