[Suggestion] Max overload for transport

[zolobolo]

This is regarding the cheat to have soldiers packed with ammo and weapons to the teeth and then dropping these in the first round

Could a counter (Overload) implemented to soldier equip screen which would increase each time a soldier is packaging more then it can handle and deny overload of soldiers if reaches a limit?

All soldiers would always be able to fill up their capacity and most of the soldiers could be overloaded slightly even allowing one to be overloaded extensively thus allowing some stash pile on the transport but if player is resulting to this sensible cheat/feature it would be only worth loading one soldier and the result is the same as in the original with the exception of some little micro management at the beginning of each turn

[RichardEpsilonHughes]

Is this really a CHEAT, per se?

[zolobolo]

If a cheat is defined as an action to circumwent game mechanics giving the player an advantage not intended in the design of the balance then this would be such a thing depending wether the game designers took this feature into consideration when desining balance.

Since I do not know if it was the DEVs intention for the players to do such things I am guessing that it wasn't based on the experience that several aspects of the game have been streamlined to avoid micro management (free ammo, and auto upgrades). Since this task requires a lot of micro-management but a mechanic is missing to restrict overall weight my guess is that it was unintentional.

Nontheless we have discussed in another thread that this aspect would not be a priority for CE and I must admit it is really up to the player if it takes advantage of it. I guess we all have to learn some self control and that will be it

Edited August 25, 2014 by zolobolo

[Solver]

This was not intended by the developers, but it is one of those mechanics that are easy to abuse but hard to prevent abuse of. Whatever overload limit there may be, people can still overload up to that, and thereby feel more comfortable with ammo and grenades than the developers had intended. The alternative is to disable overloading of soldiers altogether, but that takes away from genuine possibilities.

What would people think about limiting overloading though to 15-20% above the soldier's capacity?

[kabill]

What would people think about limiting overloading though to 15-20% above the soldier's capacity?

Seems fair. Presumably it would be easy to externalise that value as well so it can be easily modded?

[Solver]

Yes, of course. The limit is also a Goldhawk-Approved® Solution©.

[zolobolo]

Sounds awesome

Anywhere around that Intervall seems fine - thus there is a fair amount of overload can be done if the player wants to (anything around 10-20% seems fair since above that it is probably hording )

[Solver]

My intuition is that most soldiers would end up being able to overload by some 3 kg. Which enables a tactical overload with some extra grenades, or a medkit that just barely does not fit, but doesn't let you bring 2 extra rocket launchers and a dozen rockets just in case. It still doesn't prevent a player from making a stockpile of 10 grenades in the dropship, but that is where my earlier point kicks in - it's not worth the effort to prevent such behaviour by obsessive minmaxers.

[zolobolo]

That seems more then acceptable - the possible benefit is lower than the effort of micromanagemenet involved.

Needless to say the original concept of a capacity per dropship limiting amount of equipment and creating a pile of unused stuff in the door is the most flexible - but this would be damn close to a balanced situation

I mostly used rocket stashes in alien bases since from the beginning I could then bombard the other side with a lot of covers to the ground but it is much more exciting fighting it out

[kabill]

Hmm, possible issue - it will block off heavier armour types from low-strength soldiers.

Arguably, however, that could be a feature as it would make light armour more useful (Jackal and Buzzard are a bit lame, IMO, but needing to use them for low-strength soldiers would give them some value).

EDIT: In fact, it will make STR generally a much more important stat as it will set a hard-limit on carrying capacity rather than the previous soft limit. Again, this isn't necessarily a problem, but it does have some gameplay ramifications by making it impossible to trade TUs for STR.

Edited August 25, 2014 by kabill

[Solver]

That doesn't make the TU-STR trade impossible, but rather limits it to a sensible amount. Even 50-STR soldiers can wear Wolf if you do not give them any grenades or extra equipment. It does make sense, too. Every person has a weight they can comfortably carry. Give them more, and they'll move slowly and with difficulty. Give them even more, and they are physically unable to carry it at all.

Wolf armour in particular was intended to use together with Buzzard anyway.

[kabill]

No, not impossible. But definitely marginal. 3kg is 6TUs which isn't very much at all and I know I've burdened soldiers - especially heavy weapon users - with more than that through a combination of their weapon, armour and ammo.

However, my point wasn't to say it shouldn't be done because of this. I just wanted to highlight that it would have ramifications beyond blocking item spamming (and that they should be thought through), since there's currently 'legitimate' reasons for being overburdened as well. Indeed, on reflection, I think I like a hard-cap more because it more strongly differentiates STR and TU (low STR can be easily offset by having high TU since you can end up with a fair amount of mobility anyway regardless of burden). It will also help avoid being unable to reload weapons because of encumbrance.

(Hmm - the Particle Cannon might need its weight changing as it might become impossible to use the weapon otherwise).

In terms of making sense, the current system makes perfect sense too. Arguably more-so than having a hard cap, since it represents with more granularity the effects of weight on movement. That said, I think a hard limit can make sense in context: realistically, no soldier would ever carry so much that they can barely move and the hard-cap represents the maximum load the soldier is willing and able to fight in effectively rather than (as currently) the literal maximum the soldier can carry at all.

[Solver]

I cannot agree about the current system making sense, really. In it, you have soldiers willing to take so much equipment that they can only move two steps in the time everyone else can run around and shoot. But either way, this is not a major consideration.

[kabill]

My point was that it makes sense in terms of modelling the effects of weight on movement, rather than that it made sense in terms of what a soldier would realistically carry. I totally agree that in reality no soldier would ever be so burdened that they can barely move. But that's not what you'd stated in the post I was replying to.

[Muskrat]

My point was that it makes sense in terms of modelling the effects of weight on movement, rather than that it made sense in terms of what a soldier would realistically carry. I totally agree that in reality no soldier would ever be so burdened that they can barely move. But that's not what you'd stated in the post I was replying to.

Is this so different than say, paratroopers in WW2 making a jump with 150lbs strapped to their bodies, barely able to move? Granted xenonaughts is modeled after more of a surgical strike team, but it's a legit, real world tactic to overload soldiers on entrance to a battlefield, and establish an operations post to deposite those supplies.

In game terms, I'm not really sure of the advantage. I've never run through my inventory on a mission, and needed resupply during the mission, and it replenishes each mission. The only benefit maybe wanting to swap gear out for an assault on a ufo, vs whats used to clear the town. Which again is a legit reason to bring extra supplies. The down side is the mission becomes more tedious.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Muskrat

[kabill]

Is this so different than say, paratroopers in WW2 making a jump with 150lbs strapped to their bodies, barely able to move? Granted xenonaughts is modeled after more of a surgical strike team, but it's a legit, real world tactic to overload soldiers on entrance to a battlefield, and establish an operations post to deposite those supplies.

You've answered your own question. Xenonaut operatives are not paratroopers being dropped into hostile enemy territory with no support or backup and left to fend for themselves until their (quite probably lengthy) mission is complete. They're a strike team being deployed for a short-lived combat op.

In any case, my argument in that specific instance was regards to whether or not a soldier would fight while carrying that weight. To which the answer is no. While, in Xenonauts, that's technically possible. That's not to say that your argument isn't valid with regards to the original point of how/whether to block item-spamming. But it wasn't the point I was making there.

(For what it's worth, I agree that I don't personally see the point in bringing loads of extra stuff and never do. I'm far too lazy to care to do that.)

[Muskrat]

Yeah, my point was really: it's a legitimate strategy, the game mechanic is fine and puts an appropriate penalty for carrying the gear. If someone wants to employ that strategy why limit it? It's not game breaking. Who are we to judge that they are "wrong". Seems to me programming effort is better spent elsewhere.

As for you point about a soldier carrying it..generally they do what they are told. If they are told bring 100lbs of extra gear they will. Its not abnormal to hear veterans talk about stuff like that. There is a point where a soldier with free will may abandon it, but in xenonaughts every soldier perfectly follows orders....until they berserk or flee....

[Solver]

The silliness is from the fact that there is no penalty for the extra gear. The penalty is only there if your soldiers carry the equipment, but dropping all the extra stuff on the first turn carries no penalty whatsoever.

Soldiers also do what they're told within reason (admittedly a very broad definition in the military) and within the realm of what's physically possible. You can order a soldier to carry a lot, he'll struggle to but do it. But at some point, the soldier would just collapse under the weight. It's not like you can order someone to carry an elephant and expect them to do it.