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The AI is cheating but I guess that's ok


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Let me clarify on my earlier position.

I'm not saying I do not like variation, and the AI should not behave in the same way every time. On a real battlefield things are very chaotic and plans very seldom survive contact with the enemy. However TOO MUCH variation is a bad thing. A coin toss if the aliens are going to camp inside the UFO or do a suicide charge on the charlie makes the game too unpredictable and frustrating to the player. The aliens should have doctrinal tactics that they adhere to fairly consistently that the player can pick up on and start predicting alien moves. If the aliens are too random the player starts to say "fuck it, I can't plan around the random alien tactics, just send my guys in and hope for the best".

What is also frustrating to the player is when aliens have information that they should not, and you take casualties because of it. I remember one time where I had a seb pinned down in a barn and moved a trooper to one of the side doors to flank it. The seb ran out of cover, taking reaction fire from 3 of my troopers, opened the side door, and blasted the flanking trooper point blank in the face. The seb should not have known that the trooper was there, there were no other aliens around to grant squad sight. Things like that are totally immersion breaking, and make the player feel that the game has an artificially inflated difficulty.

Edited by legit1337
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I'm not saying I do not like variation, and the AI should not behave in the same way every time. On a real battlefield things are very chaotic and plans very seldom survive contact with the enemy. However TOO MUCH variation is a bad thing. A coin toss if the aliens are going to camp inside the UFO or do a suicide charge on the charlie makes the game too unpredictable and frustrating to the player. The aliens should have doctrinal tactics that they adhere to fairly consistently that the player can pick up on and start predicting alien moves. If the aliens are too random the player starts to say "fuck it, I can't plan around the random alien tactics, just send my guys in and hope for the best".

Heh. I think you're mistaking this game for Tetris. Maybe the aliens should line up for getting shot too, so that the game is not frustrating? Aliens being hard to predict is good. Jullian Gollop Said So .

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I remember one time where I had a seb pinned down in a barn and moved a trooper to one of the side doors to flank it. The seb ran out of cover, taking reaction fire from 3 of my troopers, opened the side door, and blasted the flanking trooper point blank in the face. The seb should not have known that the trooper was there, there were no other aliens around to grant squad sight.
There was a bug that caused that one, but it's been fixed supposedly. I know this because I had something similar happen and I sent in a bug report. How long ago did this happen?
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I knew it.

Before this gets out of hand; this is purely the aggressivity enabling. The AI still has no information on your exact whereabouts. It does not know whether it's walking into a deathtrap or not.

The reason why some of these stick out though is that it >can<, >sometimes< severely punish wrong tactics.

Which in my opinion, is as it should. Prepared and unprepared players alike would get the same reaction, with the same RNG.

It >might< interact with the AIs ability to predict whether you have spent your TU, but this system, again, does not cheat.

(Or it should not)

The behavior is unpredictable, and if you stick to "correct" tactics you shouldn't be punished.

However, as I said before, if anyone can provide me with a save; I'll happily look into it to see if a bug is causing any misbehavior.

My hunch though is that you guys remember the times the AI & the RNG gods rolled against you; while not remembering the times the AI made a "mistake" by running into well defended units.

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Before this gets out of hand; this is purely the aggressivity enabling. The AI still has no information on your exact whereabouts. It does not know whether it's walking into a deathtrap or not.

Gotchya. Still, this gives the AI information that it should not have. Namely the general "direction" and distance of your troops. Kind of makes it hard to slowly sneak men around in a surrounding maneuver when the aliens instantly know if you get too close.

My hunch though is that you guys remember the times the AI & the RNG gods rolled against you; while not remembering the times the AI made a "mistake" by running into well defended units.

Possibly. Still, I've run across numerous instances where I've been left scratching my head as to how the AI reacted so well against troops it should not have known were there. If I run across a situation like this in the future I will try to provide a savegame.

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Heh. I think you're mistaking this game for Tetris. Maybe the aliens should line up for getting shot too, so that the game is not frustrating? Aliens being hard to predict is good. Jullian Gollop Said So .

No.

Aliens using unpredictable, intelligent tactics is good.

Aliens spazzing out by doing random things and acting in an illogical manner to simulate "unpredictable behavior" is a very bad thing.

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Gotchya. Still, this gives the AI information that it should not have. Namely the general "direction" and distance of your troops. Kind of makes it hard to slowly sneak men around in a surrounding maneuver when the aliens instantly know if you get too close.

I don't actually think you've got him - he's just said very clearly that the aliens don't get any information on where your men are, just that they occasionally act extremely aggressively. You seem to have taken it to mean the exact opposite...

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I'm sorry, maybe I'm not getting it. My understanding of it is that once xenonauts get close enough to the aliens, they "trigger" aggressive behavior: either putting the aliens on high alert, or causing them to berserk charge towards the nearest xenonauts occasionally.

Using the example in the OP, a base defense mission is nearly over. Using the cameras the only two aliens on the map appear to be in the storeroom. Turns pass, however the aliens do not leave the storeroom, they just sort of wander around inside of it. Losing patience, the player maneuvers his troops to surround the storeroom preparing to breach from either side. However, once the xenonauts are close enough, the "aggressiveness" triggers and the aliens suddenly have a chance to pop outside to look around, or migrate towards the nearest xenonaut group.

If this is not how it works and I'm being a dummy please enlighten me.

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It's more or less how it works. The AI is just fed the aggressivity along with the normal information.

So the AI might still decide not to act on it.

Keep in mind though that this happens with about 10% chance (hence the once in ten turns comment).

This is not "spazzing out", and it's behavior that far more often than not results in correct behavior.

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I guess AI anti-stuck mechanism making it teleport ten to thirty spaces for no TUS cost could be called cheating as well.

I don't complain tho'. As long as it does not teleport the drone saucer inside the building so it cant move out.

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I guess AI anti-stuck mechanism making it teleport ten to thirty spaces for no TUS cost could be called cheating as well.

I don't complain tho'. As long as it does not teleport the drone saucer inside the building so it cant move out.

If this happens it's just a plain bug. Nothing in my code gives the AI the ability to teleport for free.

I'm pretty sure you are referring to the animations being skipped bug; which was fixed quite a while ago.

Like before; try to provide a save and I'll look into it :)

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It's more or less how it works. The AI is just fed the aggressivity along with the normal information.

So the AI might still decide not to act on it.

Keep in mind though that this happens with about 10% chance (hence the once in ten turns comment).

This was exactly the point I was making.

AI behavior changes when xenonaut forces come within a certain range. Using my previous example of the base defense mission, the aliens would continue to mill around the storeroom indefinitely. However, once xenonaut forces enter a certain range, the aliens "react" to this by changing their behavior. In other words, the aliens change their behavior in response to xenonaut movements that they should not be aware of. I understand this mechanic was put into place to make the game more unpredictable and exciting, but sometimes this makes it seem like the AI can see through walls. I know I have definitely noticed it as a player, and according to this thread so have others.

Using another example for one of my games. I had a sniper watching the door of a UFO while the rest of my troops meticulously combed the map. 30+ turns of no activity the aliens didn't even pop their heads outside of the ufo. Once I finished clearing the map I started moving my troops into position to breach the front door of the UFO. All of a sudden, half of the aliens in the UFO decided to burst outside at exactly the wrong moment, and instigate a firefight. I ended up losing two men I shouldn't have because of the AIs seeming omnipotence. A turn earlier, or a turn later and I would have been fine, but no, out of 30+ turns they had to pick THAT one to emerge.

Again, I had a feeling I was triggering these actions by simply approaching the UFO, but it is good to have confirmation.

This is not "spazzing out", and it's behavior that far more often than not results in correct behavior.

I wasn't referring to this behavior as spazzing out. That comment was in reply to another user saying that unpredictability is a good thing for the AI to have.

Edited by legit1337
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Unless you want just to complain/chat and nothing more, cite is useless. Provide a save that reproduces it.

Let's try it, just for the fun of it: It is not. See why I wrote the above?

AI can open doors even though they are not next to it- having one empty tile between the door and the alien doesnt prevent them from opening it. xenonaut operatives cannot. Given the alpha and omega of the game AI seems to be camp-in-cover-inside-the-indestructible-UFO this is rather nasty exploit.

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How is that agressiveness 'trigger' activated, exactly? For example, if there are let's say 3 last aliens in an UFO, camping way back in the rear (or is it front?), and instead of clumping my team by the door, let's say I clump them near the aliens in the front, but obviously unable to enter the UFO (the door is on the opposite side), would that 'clumping' trigger their agressiveness? Will they start running to the doors? And end up outside with noone to shoot at and with all their TU's spent? Or the range is relevant to TU needed to actually reach my team (camping on the other side of the impassable bulkhead)?

Re:camping inside the idestructible UFO, I have a citation:

Historian Robin Fedden, co-author of Crusader Castles, wrote, "The desperate shortage of manpower encouraged every device by which stones [castles]might do the work of men."

I understand that. Still, I'd prefer them to die defending their race to my guys die assaulting them :)

Edited by BULIGO
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... I had a sniper watching the door of a UFO while the rest of my troops meticulously combed the map. 30+ turns of no activity the aliens didn't even pop their heads outside of the ufo. Once I finished clearing the map I started moving my troops into position to breach the front door of the UFO. All of a sudden, ...

Exactly my experience, that's why I am now breaking UFO doors with explosives before assaulting them. Anyway, UFO assault tactics is not the point here. Since I am sure I will get the same experience sooner or later, I will keep a save for our GJ to have a look at.

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I must be the only guy who approches ufo's carefully and slowly. ensuring my soldiers have roughly 70%-80% of their TU's when approaching the doors.

Yes I developed this tactic to thwart the "Oh look, the humans are right outside our door and exhausted. Let's blast them!" quirk they gained in recent updates. Now generally there's just one alien who opens the door and gets murdered by my reaction fire.

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I must be the only guy who approches ufo's carefully and slowly. ensuring my soldiers have roughly 70%-80% of their TU's when approaching the doors.

Yes I developed this tactic to thwart the "Oh look, the humans are right outside our door and exhausted. Let's blast them!" quirk they gained in recent updates. Now generally there's just one alien who opens the door and gets murdered by my reaction fire.

Except 2 things: a) opening doors does not invoke reaction fire b) as stated, aliens can open doors without being behind one. so in case the alien just opens a door and shoots, your reaction fire will come after that shot. now how many lucky heavy plasma shots can one xenonaut operative take to the face?

lets get the absolute best part ive so far encountered. recall the big carrier front doors? well, i had my guys ready to take reaction fire, well away from the doors themselves. zap, an alien teleports 1 tile away from the door (opening the door in the process) and the rest of the bogeys inside rain hellfire on me. yes, i got reaction fire after their shots, but that does not really make the dead come back alive does it?

gets better. what is the best weapon for reaction fire? pistols and shotguns. what is the effective range that xenonaut operative can hit a side of a bran from? about 4 tiles. And of course, late-game that one reaction shot will not kill and alien, but one reaction shot from the alien will usually kill you.

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I am still very green at the game. Question: how useful is the tank at breaching the UFO? Will the bad guys prioritize firing at the tank or at my guys?

If supressed aliens cannot get reaction shots, opening the door with one guy and the machinegunner spraying the hallway allowing the riflemen/snipers to take their shots.. Is that a viable tactic?

Edited by BULIGO
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Except 2 things: a) opening doors does not invoke reaction fire b) as stated, aliens can open doors without being behind one. so in case the alien just opens a door and shoots, your reaction fire will come after that shot. now how many lucky heavy plasma shots can one xenonaut operative take to the face?

Approach from the side?

(It's funny, only a month or two ago people wanted reaction fire for opening doors to make the *aliens* stronger.)

@BULIGO: I don't think they'll inherently prefer either. But if you make the tank an easier target, they're probably more likely to attack it.

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Approach from the side?

thats the way to do it, yes. was just stating to sentinel that "but we have 70% TUs remaining!" isnt an answer to the "aliens open door and shoot you in the face"-dilemma. in fact, "approachign carefully" isnt any more sensible option, the most useful way is to understand what range your soldiers can seize the doors from. so systematically creeping forwards with the mantra "reaction fire reaction fire" will end up in nothing else but piles of dead xenonauts.

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thats the way to do it, yes. was just stating to sentinel that "but we have 70% TUs remaining!" isnt an answer to the "aliens open door and shoot you in the face"-dilemma. in fact, "approachign carefully" isnt any more sensible option, the most useful way is to understand what range your soldiers can seize the doors from. so systematically creeping forwards with the mantra "reaction fire reaction fire" will end up in nothing else but piles of dead xenonauts.

Moving slowly from the sides is still useful. Even if you approach from the sides, sometimes an alien will come out and shoot you. Making your you've got high TUs ready is a good guard against this.

You're right, though, it's not necessarily very effective if you're going for a front-on approach.

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I am asking about target prioritizing because in a YT flick I watched, that guy was defending his base. he had one tank. He used it mostly to block doorways. The aliens didn't seem impressed, didn't shoot at the tank on sight at all.

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b) as stated, aliens can open doors without being behind one. so in case the alien just opens a door and shoots, your reaction fire will come after that shot. now how many lucky heavy plasma shots can one xenonaut operative take to the face?

Really? I've never seen that.

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