What the..

[mvm900]

So today, approximately a couple minutes ago, I decided that rifles were outright not worth it because, to put it bluntly, they don't hit shit. And as it turns out you have to hit the enemy to kill them. So I decided, mostly as a joke, to outfit my entire team with shotguns, and one guy with a rifle. And it was early in the game. And I found out that.. Jesus. The shotguns are /really/ OP in this game. Now I'm not saying they should be nerfed, god no. I'm saying other weapons should get buffed. The range difference is hardly a problem when the gun has such low accuracy I barely hit anything due to low accuracy scores on that. Meanwhile the low TU cost, multiple pellets and apparently lower weight of the shotgun just makes it outright a better choice. Even at the shotguns longer ranges it performs better than the rifle. And at close range the rifles are literally useless, the best it can do is burst and that takes up a lot of TU, multiple bullets, and it may not even kill what you're aiming at. What's the logic behind this awful balancing? The M16 wasn't that bad of a gun outside of it's jamming and this is about the time when the US decided to fix that problem, making it 100% better anyway. So.. Why?

[llunak]

So.. Why?

Most probably because you haven't noticed that your mouse has more than one button.

[mvm900]

Uh.. I am well aware of the aimed and normal. It.. doesn't help literally at all when the shotguns can make snap shots better than rifles can do aimed or burst.

[StellarRat]

I don't know why your having such a time with rifles. I frequently have hit probabilities over 60% with aimed fire. That's not accurate? Burst fire at point blank is pretty deadly and has over 90% chance to hit in most cases. Are you recruiting troops with decent accuracy? Firing from a crouch?

[llunak]

In that case I don't know, maybe you use tactics that favour close combat. I don't use shotguns outside of UFOs, because soldiers with rifles usually wouldn't let any aliens get within effective shotgun range anyway.

[mvm900]

That's also a problem, stellar. Even if it does hit they usually do negligent damage when I could do more than that by just running up/cover hopping my way to point blank and one-two hit killing a lot of enemies instead. Plus aimed frequently takes a lot of TU for one hit. When, again, shotguns can do more than that for a lot less TU. There's not that many options for different tactics. I mean I've tried quite a lot of things.

[StellarRat]

In that case I don't know, maybe you use tactics that favour close combat. I don't use shotguns outside of UFOs, because soldiers with rifles usually wouldn't let any aliens get within effective shotgun range anyway.

Same here.

[StellarRat]

That's also a problem, stellar. Even if it does hit they usually do negligent damage when I could do more than that by just running up/cover hopping my way to point blank and one-two hit killing a lot of enemies instead. Plus aimed frequently takes a lot of TU for one hit. When, again, shotguns can do more than that for a lot less TU.

Well what tech level of weapons are you using? Are we talking about open terrain or inside UFOs/buildings? If you like to close with your enemy quickly then absolutely shotguns are a better choice. My style is to engage at long range with LMGs and then finish them with rifles and snipers moving up shotguns if they aren't dead already.

[mvm900]

Well for one I'm talking about the very start of the game, as I did this just to try currently. And anywhere. Quite literally anywhere. The rifle guy can't kill or keep up with the shotgunners who just cover hop their way up to the enemy and kill them. I've tried using all rifles and it's just a pain because they all miss or do very little damage. And I don't /want/ to do that is the problem. I love firing at them from afar, in fact in XCOM:EU/EW I practically only used assault rifles and sniper rifles because I preferred staying back. It feels like it's a problem because shotguns actually use pellets, instead of, again, like XCOM:EU/EW

[StellarRat]

Well for one I'm talking about the very start of the game, as I did this just to try currently.

Well, shotguns are much more powerful for cover hopping type tactics specially at game start. If your good at moving from cover to cover and you take advantage of the reaction fire bonus it is going to be a real killer. Later on when you start engaging more aliens in the open or have a terror mission I think you'll see the downside. Big ships have much larger crews and they will give you run outside the ship. Also, laser weapons and higher make rifles much better than the starting model.

[momerathe]

I'm somewhat with the OP on this one.

I generally find that a single riflemen cannot be relied upon to kill.. well, pretty much anything. A single aimed shot, even if it hits, usually fails to kill.

Sure, they're dangerous at close range, but their advantage over shotguns is meant to be engaging at medium ranges, and in relatively open spaces MGs are far, far killier. TBH I only really keep them around for reaction fire.

Snipers, OTOH, I've pretty much stopped using altogether. While they were useful for capping low-ranking Caesans in the first month or so, they can't reliably kill tougher stuff on their own; they're bad at reaction fire, and they're useless up close.

EDIT: FWIW, my current squad is 4 assault, 3 rifles, 3 heavy.

[mvm900]

I don't use reaction fire much at all, really. And it works in the open pretty much too because all I have to do is get within the max range of the shotguns and I can still hit them more and harder than a rifle does. 3:

[StellarRat]

I don't use reaction fire much at all, really. And it works in the open pretty much too because all I have to do is get within the max range of the shotguns and I can still hit them more and harder than a rifle does. 3:

No, no, shotguns have a reaction/reflex bonus that means a troop with one can spend a lot more TU in sight of an alien without drawing reaction fire from them i.e. you can move from cover to cover without getting shot. It also has a bonus for shooting at aliens that move in your sight i.e. your chance to reaction fire. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

[momerathe]

I don't use reaction fire much at all, really. And it works in the open pretty much too because all I have to do is get within the max range of the shotguns and I can still hit them more and harder than a rifle does. 3:

that's probably your answer, then. As an old UFO:EU player, I'm paranoicly careful about saving TUs are setting people up with good fields of reaction fire. Often, if I can't guarantee a kill I'll hold fire and wait for the aliens to break cover.

Edited July 8, 2014 by momerathe
edited in quote so it's clear who I'm replying to

[mvm900]

No no, my fault, misunderstood. Regardless of which, even with those factors taken out, looking purely at firing at an enemy, the shotgun seems a lot better at the job. And with those factors the shotgun seems like a better choice regardless. From what I've seen here it basically seems like you need multiple riflemen to use them effectively. Somewhat like ye old archers.

[spacebug]

I generally find that a single riflemen cannot be relied upon to kill.. well, pretty much anything. A single aimed shot, even if it hits, usually fails to kill.

...

Snipers, OTOH, I've pretty much stopped using altogether. While they were useful for capping low-ranking Caesans in the first month or so, they can't reliably kill tougher stuff on their own.

What difficulty are you playing on? All my experience is from insane, and while i need more than one hit from snipers/rifles to kill an alien, this does not matter. Becase thats true for all weapons. Sure, shotguns most of the time kill faster than onther waepons, but getting close to an alien is extremly dangerous if he's not suppressed, or if he has friends.

The only alien i can reliable onehit with a ballistic shotgun are caesean red-shirts, and even those survivea point blank shotgun blast sometimes. So i need a xenonaut that can get 2 shots off after approaching the enemy, or i need to use 2 assault troops at once. Unless i'm fighting inside a ufo (or a similar close-combat situation), its easier to use long-range fire, relying on supression and smoke.

Note that i don't consider shotguns as bad weapons. My starting team always has 2 assault troops with them. But i think if i would use more of them, my long-range firepower would drop too much.

(My current early-game setup: 1pistol/shield, 2 shotgun (with rocket launcher in backpack), 2 rifle, 2 sniper, 1 lmg.)

[quiescat]

so, as a guy who LOVES shotguns. i will go ahead and warn you that about the time androns show up you will need to mix your tactics up a bit. this is because they have armor it takes about 3 shotgun shots to guarantee a kill; assuming laser which is about what you will have when they show, combined with the flying sniper buddy who reaction fire pretty much all the time, your shotgun running will get you shot in the face so much from reaction fire alone.

as to the merits of rifles which suck massively in my opinion once you have troopers who built up accuracy stats in the 80s or so you start to be able to burst fire from further away and remain effective while you may still be on the receiving end of reaction fire it will be far less effective then if you had been standing point blank range

thought i must admit i think sniper rifles are by far the most hurt but the nature of single shot damage in this game, the armor penetration it has is effectively useless for doing any thing but killing your own troopers during mind control

[mvm900]

Sure androns are a problem, and I realize that but I could always throw two shotguns at it instead of one. And it still performs better than the same amount of riflemen. Which was the point. Rifles individually, apparently, perform subpar. But from what I've seen they work great in groups.

[ViewThePhenom]

Yeah, rifles aren't really the kill weapon in this game. It's shotguns and sniper rifles, while rifles are really for reaction fire and suppression. Better in open terrain than shotguns, less powerful overall. Also, sniper rifles can get two shots off if you don't move beforehand, so they aren't limited to single shots per turn.

Also, the risk of getting close enough to a unit to make the shotgun effective can be pretty high, while rifles give you the ability to damage from a distance and keep your soldiers safer. The "jack of all trades" weapon, really. Early game crews aren't too difficult to handle with just shotguns either (scouts, light scouts).

Edited July 8, 2014 by ViewThePhenom

[mvm900]

Yeah.. people say that yet it definitely doesn't seem as risky as a mid-long range standoff/firefight against the aliens. Why I actually lost less using the shotguns than mid-long range.

[ViewThePhenom]

Well, I don't know what else to say, really. I've had success using a mix of rifles for reaction fire, mid-range and suppression mixed with shotguns for flanking. It could just be a difference in play styles, which is a good thing. There's also the case of Sebs having crappy accuracy overall, so nothing lost in exploiting that weakness by keeping them at a distance.

[ViniJones]

As far as ballistic goes I gotta agree with mvm, higher tier rifles seem a little better(along with soldier having higher accuracy), but the burst fire still seems fishy... the damage is there, the aim is not. Besides higher tier carbine can hit stuff long past its effective range for less ap. An aimed rifle shot it better, but costs twice as much ap.

Still, the rifle is supposed to be universal, which it is. I dont use them at all, I find the specialized ones better.

[kabill]

Uh.. I am well aware of the aimed and normal. It.. doesn't help literally at all when the shotguns can make snap shots better than rifles can do aimed or burst.

I can only assume this is related to the soldiers you have the weapons equipped on, since the shotgun is actually *less* accurate on equivalent shot types compared with a rifle (38% vs. 45% for snap; 70% vs. 80% for normal). And the TU costs for the two weapons are again the same for the same shot types.

Strictly speaking, the shotgun does have a higher chance to hit as each of the pellets has a chance of hitting the target. But in terms of base hit chance, the rifle is definitely better.

(Not saying shotguns aren't good, mind. I love them to bits. That said, I can't imagine running a whole squad of them, certainly on some map types (hello, desert).)

[StellarRat]

It might be interesting to play a few battles using only assault rifles OR only shotguns (plus the various grenades.)

[mvm900]

Already did. And I must say.. I prefer the shotguns still.