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Xenonauts already reduces some of the micro through the auto-selling of excess alien items.

I would suggest to make the clips / magazines of all firearms available in unlimited quantity.

The only things the player would manufacture would be the "heavy" ordnance like launcher rockets, grenades, and interceptor missiles.

Things that come as single items.

Constantly monitoring the number of pistol and rifle clips is just no fun.

That also prevents the sadface when an entire clip is "used up" even though only a single round had been fired in the mission.

Tracking the actual number of bullets is a silly level of detail that doesn't fit with the rest of Xenonauts.

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I would agree with Gazz on a general level. Especially with the whole fire one shot and the clip is consumed at end of mission.

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Xenonauts already reduces some of the micro through the auto-selling of excess alien items.

I would suggest to make the clips / magazines of all firearms available in unlimited quantity.

The only things the player would manufacture would be the "heavy" ordnance like launcher rockets, grenades, and interceptor missiles.

Things that come as single items.

Constantly monitoring the number of pistol and rifle clips is just no fun.

That also prevents the sadface when an entire clip is "used up" even though only a single round had been fired in the mission.

Tracking the actual number of bullets is a silly level of detail that doesn't fit with the rest of Xenonauts.

I agree with you, to an extent, but I know others who do not. The whole removal of ammo thing is a big criticism over on the XCOM:EU forums

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I have to disagree.

For me micomanaging is fun. Having the ability to influence the gameplay even is as tiny thing as inventory is interesting.

However I agree that using a clip that fired just one shot is kinda strange.

Maybe the clip should be used only when more then 50% of it's capacity was fired?

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I have to disagree.

For me micomanaging is fun. Having the ability to influence the gameplay even is as tiny thing as inventory is interesting.

However I agree that using a clip that fired just one shot is kinda strange.

Maybe the clip should be used only when more then 50% of it's capacity was fired?

I could be on-board for that. I have no problem with inventory management for the tactical screen. aka How many ammo clips should I take?

But the storage management side of producing and maintaining enough ammo when one shot = consumed clip, is a hindrance.

I agree with you, to an extent, but I know others who do not. The whole removal of ammo thing is a big criticism over on the XCOM:EU forums

See, the issue I have with the removal of Ammo for the XCOM game is the loss of tactical choices for inventory management. Not asking for that here. Having to choose how much ammo to take is an important part of the tactical combat I feel.

Having to deal with keeping enough stock, and manufacturing for something as basic as ammo, when 1 shot = consumed clip doesn't really make for that meaningful gameplay if you ask me.

Edited by Ziggarius

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Just to be clear, are we talking about simply having unlimited ammo available (but still having to pack it for missions) or the XCOM version where ammo is completely abstracted and guns can be reloaded ad infinitum? I got the impression it's the first thing.

I could get on board with not having to manufacture ammo all the time as it can be a monotonous chore but I wouldn't agree to not having magazines at all since the relationship between weight and action points actually makes for some interesting decision making when it comes to how much ammo one should bring.

Edited by Jean-Luc

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The whole removal of ammo thing is a big criticism over on the XCOM:EU forums

That's where I got the idea. My own initial reaction was pretty much the same but... it's not such a bad idea if done right! =P

To me, the balance is maintained by having to set up the equipment the soldiers go into battle with.

How many magazines they are taking, how the carried weight affects their mobility, what other useful things they don't have the inventory space for.

Can you imagine a Seal team commander canceling the mission because there aren't enough rifle bullets for his small handful of soldiers?

Extending this system to all ordnance (XCOM:EU) goes too far, IMO.

Rockets / grenades are larger scale. One (or more) inventory slots is used up with every attack. Their usage is far more limited.

It makes sense for the commander to have an eye on the heavy stuff but supply with simple bullets (be they alien or terran) should not be too complicated to delegate to a clerk.

It makes for far better gameplay if you assign believable weight and volume to the magazines so that a machine gunner cannot carry unlimited ammo.

1000 rounds of 7,62 would be 24 kg. Just the bullets alone! No belt links or boxes.

I can guarantee that you'll develop a personal hatred for every single 100 round belt you have to carry on a march. =P

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I can support not having to manufacture/buy small arms ammunition (and even the weapons themselfs). A elite force of a few hundred soldiers tops with a lack of bullets or guns? Not very likely.

I could live with not having to manufacture/buy ammunition for the starting heavy weapons (and again, even the weapons themselfs). This is readily available tech, can be easily explained by the stuff being provided by the funding nations.

Everything alien though or researched gear ... not so much. It's completely new tech, there are no factories for it, no contractors to produce the stuff. It takes time to set up manufacturing infrastructure. Any one game will probably not even last so long that it would be realistic for a completely new manufacturing plant to be planed, built, equipped, and staffed and starting production. So I say no to infinite alien or researched gear and ammunition.

It might even be a nice twist to not be able to produce alien gear and ammo yourself but having to get by with what you find on the battlefield and researched gear based on human technology. XCOMUtil provided such an option (you could still manufacture ammo, but not the weapons) and it fit very nicely with the game imo.

my 2c :)

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Generally the alien derived weaponry uses the alien element to create ammunition.

How do you explain that you now have unlimited Alenium based ammunition without access to Alenium?

If you can create this Alenium based tech without Alenium then why can't you do the same for Alenium powered armour or vehicles?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't see creating ammo as micromanagement in the same way you do.

It is a choice.

Do I use up my limited stocks of this ultra rare element by building massive amounts of ammo or do I try and get by with less and build a few extra sets of armour or a new interceptor?

The starting gear is fair enough, it is available in unlimited quantities because there are numerous places they could be getting it from.

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Hrm, I must have missed it, and need to replay through to laser weaponry. But I didn't recall laser weaponry ammo packs requiring alienium to make. If it does require it to make (I had thought it just needed to be researched) the ammo, then Guaddlike has a valid point.

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unlimited amounts of projectile pistol/projectile rifle and projectile shotgun ammo agailable from the storeroom, sounds like a good idea (it gets sent to the base from the funding countries when requested), youd still need to carry enough clips/shells etc on the troopers whenon missions and balance the weight/space fropr ammo/weaponry with the need to carry other gear (medpacks granades etc), having to conserve ammo and not just spray everything with autofire is i think right (with unlimited ammo laser guns in a earlier xcom i could tare down entire barns and hedges etc...), as for ammo for new technology i think they should have to be produced in your manufacturing facilities.

though 1 bullet used = a clip expended at mission end is odd maybe partially used clips can be reloaded

ps: i gotta add this Gazz... internet shaped cookies O_O hmmmm *tries to get them of gazz*

Edited by Talrea

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Any ammunition type that requires Alenium should definitely not be available in infinite supply; that kind of kills one of the cornerstones of the game, that you have a very limited resource and you have to decide how to spend it.

If laser weapons don't use Alenium; I'm not sure to be honest. You could make it so that you could build ammo if you wanted to, or you could buy it from supplying countries but at a higher cost than manufacturing it. That way people who wanted to micro-manage would get a bit of a bonus, but if you didn't care then you just paid a bit more while having your techs work on something else.

Fluff-wise the story would be that you have released laser technology to the world's military; they are producing their own laser weapons. They are prepared to give you some ammunition, but this cuts in to their own preparedness so they charge you for it, unlike with the ballistic equipment that they already have storehouses full of.

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Any ammunition type that requires Alenium should definitely not be available in infinite supply;

Oh, that't easy then.

Pistol and rifle ammunition does not require Alenium.

See? All better.

I'm talking about a gameplay issue here, not about some minor detail of the background story that can simply be changed to fit the gameplay needs.

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Oh, that't easy then.

Pistol and rifle ammunition does not require Alenium.

See? All better.

I'm talking about a gameplay issue here, not about some minor detail of the background story that can simply be changed to fit the gameplay needs.

I'd argue that there's not going to be an easy way to talk around it in terms of back story, but we'll set that aside.

I'd prefer it if it worked in a similar fashion to UFO:EU; all plasma weaponry requires the magic mineral and so requires manufacture, but alien ammunition can be harvested and used from the battlefield. I know that the re-use of alien guns is barred, but I think the human-designed guns should use the alien ammo fine.

There is an argument that as plasma weapons are an elite weapon they are not as available as standard weapons, and therefore require additional investment and management to use.

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Oh, that't easy then.

Pistol and rifle ammunition does not require Alenium.

See? All better.

I'm talking about a gameplay issue here, not about some minor detail of the background story that can simply be changed to fit the gameplay needs.

I'm of the camp that thinks you should have to buy the ammo for your stores even for the basic weapons So I'm going to have to disagre with you =)

(although I've conceeded that most people want the basic stuff for free)

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The entire Alenium angle is only derailing the topic.

My point is that the player has no realistic choice of whether to produce the ammunition or not.

The soldiers must have their rifle ammo.

Actions that the game dictates the player to do are a chore and offer no interesting gameplay.

These filler actions should be trimmed back so the player can make interesting decisions instead.

Balancing the heavy equipment and ordnance should be plenty to do without having to worry about screwing up the timing on something as basic as rifle bullets.

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Actions that the game dictates the player to do are a chore and offer no interesting gameplay.

These filler actions should be trimmed back so the player can make interesting decisions instead.

The game dictates the player to shoot down UFOs, enter ground battles and do research. I disagree that it is a chore and wonder where exactly the line goes. Probably goes different places for you and me. crafting ammo affects the gameplay and therefore isnt a chore imo. If you dont have enough ammo you can allways go down a tier in the weaponry.

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The entire Alenium angle is only derailing the topic.

My point is that the player has no realistic choice of whether to produce the ammunition or not.

The soldiers must have their rifle ammo.

Both of these statements are not true. While I agree with where you are coming from, if I have enough Alenium to restock my troops with more ammo, or build another suit of armour, there is a choice. It also forces me to think, do I just nuke that supply ship, or should I raid it to get more Alenium so that my troops can keep firing their super guns, or shall I fall back to laser tech (which for the sake of argument doesn't need Alenium to make more ammo). Those are choices that your system would remove =[

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The background story does not specifically demand ammunition to require alienium.

The actual kind and amount of resources required for manufacturing each item are balancing issues so that they require alienium can not be an argument.

It would be the result of a balancing decision, not a cause.

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The background story does not specifically demand ammunition to require alienium.

The actual kind and amount of resources required for manufacturing each item are balancing issues so that they require alienium can not be an argument.

It would be the result of a balancing decision, not a cause.

Neither me or AD said it was an argument. If anything wewere argueing for haveing it in for the balance aspect it gives. Well AD was atleast. I don't need the alienium(sp?) requirement to think that the ammo should be manufactured anyway.

You did not adress our opinions about it beeing a choice that affects your gameplay rather then a chore. You just went on a tangent trying to work around the discussion to further your opinion.

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Sure nothing has said Alenium is necessary, but that doesn't exclude the possibility. Or the probability. I mean there are reasons we haven't managed to make plasma weapons on our own yet, and one of those is a small, efficient power source. Probably because to make one we might need something out of the world... =p

I'm just saying, it's not that much of a stretch for that to be implemented

Also the back story does not require laser ammo (mainly because there are no lasers in the back story, same with human plasma weapons really...), but Chris is implementing that...

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Well honestly i'm against the idea.

I like having to make ammo even if its a hassle.

however i understand alot of people would like to completely skip that part and just concentrate on the game

So I say if this was implemented into the game it should be in all difficultly modes except turned off for iron man mode.

that why players who want perfect realism can have it and those who don't well don't have too.

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The game has many facets, one of which is the strategic management of resources. By giving infinite ammunition for all weapons you are removing an element of that resource management from the game.

Yeah, I'm sure for some people it's just stupid micro-management, but to be honest I always found the strategic game more interesting than the ground combat; for me the ground combat was an irritating chore I had to do to get the resources to do the interesting research and manufacturing stuff.

And as others have said; you will always have access to ammunition and weapons; just not necessarily the current top-tier stuff.

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