Making the MIG researchable?

[Chris]

One of the biggest problems with the game at the moment is the air combat - while it is a good addition to the game, it's not particularly intuitive. While we've got a new GUI on the way that will involve tooltips and should make things clearer, there's a more fundamental issue than that.

The difference between the F-17 and the MiG aircraft is important, but not immediately obvious. Sure, you can check the Xenopedia, but realistically almost nobody is going to do that. So there needs to be a better way to explain it.

This fits into a wider issue about the pacing of the early game. We've just finished the art for a new UFO type, the Light Scout. The intention is this will be a small 2-alien UFO that is slower than the F-17 and relatively easy meat for interception. This will appear for the first few weeks of the war, and then the Heavy Scout, Corvette and the Fighters will all start appearing at around the end of the third week.

As the MiG is basically designed to do two things, either picking off lone Heavy Scouts using Sidewinders or picking off Corvettes using Avalanches, this means it is basically pointless for the first three weeks. In fact, it's actually counterproductive - if you hit the early ships with an Avalanche missile it'd just destroy them outright rather than make them crash.

Therefore, making the MiG a research project that is available from the start of the game seems the most sensible suggestion. It achieves several things:

1) The air combat starts off more simple, with only one interceptor to get the hang of (and only two weapons).

2) The player has to look at a research report when they get the MiG-31. This will explain the role of the aircraft, making it more likely to be used correctly.

3) It's a research project that can be available from the start of the game. This lets people use the research screen without having to capture alien technology.

The more I think about this idea, the better it sounds. Anyone got any thoughts?

[Gorlom]

Sounds nice, but what happens to the base? will you still start with 3 hangers? Will one hanger be empy at the start? Will one start under construction? What will prevent someone from just buying a F17 for the empty hangar and inadvertedly get in their own way? (I'v forgotten can you sell th aircrafts?)

If you research it will it still be bought or will you have to manufactor it now?

[TheTuninator]

I actually like this idea quite a lot! It lets players learn the research screen right away, it explains the role of the MiG, and it acclimates players to air combat in a more graduated manner.

The empty hanger is the only real complication from it, but that can easily be resolved, I'm sure.

[Amiga4ever]

I like this idea. More things to research = better fun. I think that we should start with 3 hangars. One for chinook and rest two for interceptors. Starting game with one interceptor is also good idea. I will increase their price too. Crafts should be more expensive

[Bibidibop]

3) It's a research project that can be available from the start of the game. This lets people use the research screen without having to capture alien technology.

The more I think about this idea, the better it sounds. Anyone got any thoughts?

This all makes sense, and I was actually using the MiG against everything with Avalanches, by firing 1, waiting two seconds, then firing three. I wasn't sure it was obliterating craft, but I had the feeling it was the case. The Avalanche being too powerful for scouts needs to be part of the MiG description.

First, I think the Light Scout is going to have to build up to a three Light Scout wing before the Heavy arrives. That way, the player is gradually introduced to the needs and practicalities of fighter tactics.

Knowledgeable players would know to research the MiG first thing, and since the issue is about teaching the player to use the MiG, I see no issue with this. The alternative would be to pop the MiG tech the first time a Heavy Scout is intercepted, with no requirement of destruction.

This gives me an idea, the first time we detect a craft never before seen, can the game show no art, and instead say U.F.O.?

[S.Alex]

Hmmm.... I think, this was not logical - MiG-31 was invented in the USSR in 1979, the same as the F-16. May be right to not give him a Player in the beginning? Let the player does not have enough money to buy it, or makes a choice - better equip their soldiers or buy a powerful interceptor. Or let it will be available for purchase after a certain time (one or two weeks later), as it was in the X-Com:Apocalipse.

I believe, that the game will be sufficient technologies for research. And the availability of existing weapons after some time, will improve the gameplay of Xenonauts.

Edited February 19, 2012 by S.Alex

[shuuk]

Hmmm.... I think, this was not logical - MiG-31 was invented in the USSR in 1979, the same as the F-16. May be right to not give him a Player in the beginning? Let the player does not have enough money to buy it, or makes a choice - better equip their soldiers or buy a powerful interceptor. Or let it will be available for purchase after a certain time (one or two weeks later), as it was in the X-Com:Apocalipse.

I believe, that the game will be sufficient technologies for research. And the availability of existing weapons after some time, will improve the gameplay of Xenonauts.

yep it makes no sense to research the MIG-31.

Its better to rename it to something else and research but not mig-31 its a old aircraft.

[radister]

in favour of this idea.

normally I take the Mig and one F-17 to battle and the Mig is always the one to hit the aircraft (and in 80% of cases destroy the aircraft too) I was starting to think its too powerful for early game, but if the aliens have a weaker craft then yeah i think making the Mig a researchable idea is a must.

S.Alex:

I think if the player can't buy a new interceptor then he is in trouble. interceptors get shot down all the time and you have to re buy them. early on in the game you also have lots of money and little to spend it on, so having it as a first research will probably never mean your have problems buying one.

[Arturius]

The difference between the F-17 and the MiG aircraft is important, but not immediately obvious. Sure, you can check the Xenopedia, but realistically almost nobody is going to do that.

It is sad assumption Chris. I do not know what other players do but I always read the Xenopedia, for me it's just part of the game that is cool and it brings some mood into the game mechanics.

Back to your idea:

Well, as some have said it would make no sense to research an old craft. Yet I agree that some early research project is needed.

I've read somewhere that Xenonauts missiles are guided by radiation rather than heat. Maybe go that way?

In the first days we should have only one interceptor and when we research radiation guided missiles the game tells us that those need a heavier craft - and thus MIG is introduced.

[Chris]

"Research" in this case would be obtaining them from the Soviets and modifying it to suit the Xenonaut aims. In fact, it's probably best if I make it a manufacturable item, that'll take about 5 days to build using the 10 starting engineers and cost the same as purchasing one does now. This will introduce the player to both the Research and Manufacturing parts of the game, and give them a cool new toy that they built themselves within the first month of starting the game (plus encourage people to be careful with it!)

I'm thinking the initial research would be something like Orbital Scan, which would basically be a research project to do an orbital scan (or perhaps sift through the data gathered by satellites as the alien fleet arrived) to work out the composition of the alien fleet. The idea is that this gives some taster info about the aliens and the situation. In short, the situation is bad. There's literally thousands of UFOs out there, but they must still be converting them to atmospheric flight. Therefore it's more than likely that there will be much bigger and faster craft appearing than these Light Scouts, which are pretty easy opponents. Therefore it'd be a good idea to get our hands on a faster and more heavily-armed interceptor. This unlocks the "High Speed Interceptor" research.

The problem with the hangar is a little more complex. Hangars take time to build, and you'll want players to have the hangar ready to start work on the MiG immediately. Remember, you'll start needing it about the start of week four, so you'll want to build it after 16 days. Even if we reduce hangar construction time to something like 4 days and put a strong hint that the player will want an empty hangar slot in the Orbital Scan research, there's still a potential time lag there.

I think it'd be more sensible to start with four hangars and only two F-17s and the Chinook. If people buy an extra F-17 then fair enough, but they'll only ever do that on their first playthrough.

[S.Alex]

"Research" in this case would be obtaining them from the Soviets and modifying it to suit the Xenonaut aims

If so, i don have a objection. The absence in the beginning a powerful intercept and the need to do something for his appearance - very well.

[Alibenbaba]

I think it'd be more sensible to start with four hangars and only two F-17s and the Chinook. If people buy an extra F-17 then fair enough, but they'll only ever do that on their first playthrough.

On the other hand, the moment someone researches a new craft, the need for a hangar is rather obvious. It's the decision of the player to get rid of one F-17 and go with three hangars, or to just build a fourth.

[Sunshard]

I like where this is headed. I'm salivating at the lore that could be expounded on here. Orbital Scan sounds particularly delectable.

[Gazz]

"Research" in this case would be obtaining them from the Soviets and modifying it to suit the Xenonaut aims.

So the first item the player will have to research is the F-17...

In fact, it's probably best if I make it a manufacturable item, that'll take about 5 days to build using the 10 starting engineers and cost the same as purchasing one does now. This will introduce the player to both the Research and Manufacturing parts of the game, and give them a cool new toy that they built themselves within the first month of starting the game (plus encourage people to be careful with it!)

In that case, the F-17 needs to manufacturable, too. It simply makes no sense if it's not.

What about a different approach?

Both Falcon and MiG are buyable.

The USSR are not on board at game start. The player cannot build bases there.

They don't contribute to the payment, weapons, or recruits.

The player gets no messages about "world events" behind the iron curtain except for sanitised versions in the Pravda.

Some time after the player has encountered the heavy scout (and researched whatever item is apropriate), there is enough hard evidence to convice the communists that this is not another capitalist plot.

Then it would make sense to "research" the MiG adaption, after which the player can buy it.

As a side effect, you can give the player a second issue of "elite" recruits (maybe 5-6) - all from east bloc countries.

After his expected high initial losses, the player gets a second wind once he's got the hang of the game.

Also, this allows you to describe the extreme tension of the cold war era, something many players will only know from history books - if at all.

Earth wasn't one big happy family.

[Sunshard]

Hmm, didn't the Iceland incident set the tone for both sides nervously toeing the line 20 years before the game?

[Gorlom]

Gazz the Xenonauts organization already aquired and modified F-17 for the iceland incident. There should be no need to research it again.

I can't really explain away why you buy it instead though... maybe it has been proven effective and they are able to contract the building out to countries in exchange for providing them with the plans as well? (THere has been talk about countries ahveing their own bases and planes shooting down aliens so they should be using the F-17 too no?)

Although your idea about Soviet not beeing onboard from the start is intrigueing. I'm not sure you should be prevented from building a base in their country (would that prevent you from building in china as well?) and stuff but it would explain the research.

PS. to S.Alex and the others: the MiG ingame is MiG-32 not 31. Its a modification that doesnt exist in real life. DS.

[S.Alex]

So the first item the player will have to research is the F-17...

What about a different approach?

Both Falcon and MiG are buyable.

The USSR are not on board at game start. The player cannot build bases there.

They don't contribute to the payment, weapons, or recruits.

The player gets no messages about "world events" behind the iron curtain except for sanitised versions in the Pravda.

Some time after the player has encountered the heavy scout (and researched whatever item is apropriate), there is enough hard evidence to convice the communists that this is not another capitalist plot.

Earth wasn't one big happy family.

I think this will make the development more difficult.

And I think it is not worth entering into the game the "iron curtain" and the "unbelief" of the communists. People and countries are different, but this the common trouble will make all be friendly.

PS. to S.Alex and the others: the MiG ingame is MiG-32 not 31. Its a modification that doesnt exist in real life. DS.

I know, but I like the Foxhound and I like the Falcon. And I like the game for what they have in it. Let them are called F-17 and Mig-32, the main thing - what they look like. I think that F-17 easier to adapt to the needs of the Xenonauts, so he must be in the beginning of the game. Mig-32 - Soviet weapons, and let (for its adaptation) requires some research. Nothing wrong.

[TheTuninator]

I think the problem with denying players a fourth hanger to house the MiG from the start is that this is not X-COM; alien ships don't come alone.

If you're facing a flight of two corvettes, or a corvette and two scout escorts, you're really going to want three fighters to take them on, and having to wait a month while a hanger builds would suck something awful.

I'd vote for the "start with 4 hangars", myself.

[Gazz]

And I think it is not worth entering into the game the "iron curtain" and the "unbelief" of the communists. People and countries are different, but this the common trouble will make all be friendly.

Heh. I'm not anti-russia but the east/west conflict and all the distrust (and espionage movies =) that went with it are part and parcel of the cold war era.

From a western point of view, it's a believable scenario. And from an eastern one - did you believe everything the western politicos cooked up?

Oh, it's also a cliché but it's perfect for a game where you have to build the illusion of reality.

Clichés - especially if they are historically accurate - are a great way to paint the background and make a situation feel real.

Playing the game for the first time, not knowing if you can bring "the russians" on board before it's too late?

That's drama! A bit of actual story in a mostly procedural game!

Once the USSR does join the fun, they could do so with a generally positive relation (regardless of early alien incursions) because comrade Brezhnev ordered it so.

There's no real downside. Early on the player won't even have the means to defend the entire world at once!

This way there is a logical way (in gameplay terms) to scale the conflict area with the player's available assets.

We just don't tell it to the player in those terms. =P

Instantly having to defend the entire world at the start of the game is actually one of the problems in early X-Com stages.

You can not have that kind of coverage.

Temporarily taking a big chunk of the world out of the player's responsibility would be a big help with early game balance because you hand the player a problem he might be able to solve.

[anotherdevil]

"Research" in this case would be obtaining them from the Soviets and modifying it to suit the Xenonaut aims. In fact, it's probably best if I make it a manufacturable item, that'll take about 5 days to build using the 10 starting engineers and cost the same as purchasing one does now. This will introduce the player to both the Research and Manufacturing parts of the game, and give them a cool new toy that they built themselves within the first month of starting the game (plus encourage people to be careful with it!)

if you're going to be able to manufacture them, they should cost less, because they are also tying up your engineers who could be doing other stuff (and who you are paying)

I'm thinking the initial research would be something like Orbital Scan, which would basically be a research project to do an orbital scan (or perhaps sift through the data gathered by satellites as the alien fleet arrived) to work out the composition of the alien fleet. The idea is that this gives some taster info about the aliens and the situation. In short, the situation is bad. There's literally thousands of UFOs out there, but they must still be converting them to atmospheric flight. Therefore it's more than likely that there will be much bigger and faster craft appearing than these Light Scouts, which are pretty easy opponents. Therefore it'd be a good idea to get our hands on a faster and more heavily-armed interceptor. This unlocks the "High Speed Interceptor" research.

You could do it so that the game starts with something being researched. I imagine it as something like "improved interceptor armour" already in the works. That way a new player can come along, not even realise that he is supposed to research stuff and a couple of days later: bam, improved interceptor armour.

For this the read out would say something like "better armour value... retrofitted all F-17s, but this lightweight material has allowed for the production of a heavier fighter type with the same armour on it"

Then you do heavy fighters etc.

I think it'd be more sensible to start with four hangars and only two F-17s and the Chinook. If people buy an extra F-17 then fair enough, but they'll only ever do that on their first playthrough.

So we're definately not doing multiple planes per hangar any more? Damn that was a good idea.

Yeah just start with the 4 hangars, and if the research has already started (see above) then when they realise they can research, they will realise they can manufacture, but they will know that they have a new fighter coming up, so they may not be so hasty to buy another F-17...

[poulwrist]

I'd suggest that you start the game with the research on "Alien Invasion" already running, and finish it in a day maybe after start, that then gives access to the "High Speed Interceptor" research, so people will get a ping to go see the research menu and prompted to start research on the interceptor, research being as Chris stated more of a "figure out which existing craft is best suited for the task, and is readily available in large numbers", not designing a new aircraft.

After going through that bit, people have gotten round to both seeing how it looks when you finish research projects, how you start new ones, what kind of data you get from research and how you apply the knowledge gained to the game; manufacturing researched items.

[Jean-Luc]

I really like the OP proposal purely in terms of gameplay but I agree with Gazz and others before him that it stretches credibility to a pretty awkward level.

If "MiG modification" needs to be researched, why not the same for the F-17? If the MiG needs to be manufactured, why not the other plane as well? While certain rationalizations can be applied they're pretty weak and fail at creating suspension of disbelief (for me at least).

Instead of researching the MiG, maybe it's the avalanche missiles/launchers that should be made a researchable item as the first step towards defeating heavier UFO hulls. The MiG could begin the game equipped with 4 sidewinders instead or even be unavailable until the avalanches are researched.

I would also suggest changing the light/heavy scout names into something like probe/scout with probe being the "light" version. Having light and heavy scouts sound a bit odd/redundant.

[Gorlom]

I'm against retrofitting or makeing any research affect the F17 at the very start of the game. We already have the iceland incident, wouldnt the need to update F17s conflict with the backstory?

Edit: nevermind seems i've made somethings up about the backstory. I think I missunderstood something from the Xenopedia page.

I'm also against haveing soviet unfriendly at the start. IF they arent onboard on the project you wouldnt be able to start up any base in Europe without starting a nuclear war. And it would be unfair to any Russian or Chineese players that wants to build their starting base in their home country.

Have soviet join the agreement to support Xenonauts right at the start of the game. Have that be the defining start of the game. the moment you build a base and really start the fight against the aliens. That way you explain why the organisation still need to get the plans and modify the MiG imo.

PS. Jean-luc: Probe? Sounds very unmanned to me. I'm not sure what the point of sending a probe when the fleet is in orbit. Would that be to test the atmosphereic modifications? To gather information about the atmosphere or what? If its going to be shot down and have aliens running around in ground battle I think we should keep it as "light scout". DS.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Gorlom

[KOKON]

Well i was thinking about the difference between this two planes just recently.

Mig 32 looks more armoured btw.

Honestly i was going to mod the game to make F17 completely useless as a pistol in xcom. Don't you think it is a good idea?

In xcom and xcom apoc 50% of initial stuff is completely useless. Why do you need a pistol, heavy canon, smoke grenade, incendiary rocket, interceptor canon? Just for fun. Player may think it can have some advantages against aliens but unfortunetely it is almost useless.

Say F17 has better electronics, fly by wire and two cupholders. Effect of this advantages is not explained very well but lets say if you install stingray missile on F17 it would have +50% hit rate as an undocumented feature.

P.S.: plz make it possible to install avalaches on any hardpoint

Edited February 20, 2012 by KOKON

[Gorlom]

What would be the point of it? Is it some kind of pride in russian engineering thing? Is it that you dont like the gameplay? Do you just want to use a flying bulldozer and run over the aliens (similar to how it's done in UFO:EU?) instead?

KOKON could you elaborate on WHY you want to remove a plane?