Hardball

Hi gorlom, you have me convinced there. I just thought that getting some funds immediately after shooting down a saucer would fasten game progress and give a chance to replace your losses. With all UFO games it was usually pretty tough to replace a fully equipped plane as I remember. But the mentioned planning aspect does have a lot of appeal, I agree. And you are completely right that the challenge is to make the game exciting without being frustrating or tedious. When I suggested that there should be many new features of the game to research (every few couple of missions new stuff to experience being alien types, weapon, equipment or whatver and not twenty mostly similar missions in a row) I meant that there should be a permanent feeling of having many options to explore. I think that it does not hurt if you have three or more possible research topics to choose from. Of course there needs to be a balance between the number of missions, game aspects found, research completed and thus new equipment at the player's disposal. This balance is what I wanted to adress. Because in my experience all UFO games I played suffered from an unbalance of the too high number of (much too similar) missions in that relation.

Sure, I believe that that is done mainly for political and ethical reasons. An automated choosing of people to be killed would indeed be scary and would further reduce what political capital the nations using drones today still have. For game purposes I think that having an operator sitting in the transport would be sufficient explanation and balanced too while having to use one of the team members to control the drone would surely not be positive for game play as well as mission efficiency.

Ah, the discussion is heating up. I like that and thank you for your replies. Of course it is just a game but that does not mean that one cannot and should not try to give it as much sense as possible. Referring to the thing being just a game is in my eyes just some kind of excape when things get a bit more exhausting. Of course the given explanations for the scenario do not have to be bullet-proof. But I personally would like to see more than a superficial attempt at that. That's all I wanted to point out. And I believe that most players would appreciate and reward that. I do not say that Exonauts is one such. I do not have enough information on this project to make such a judgement. It is just that I for one simply do not like to waste my time on a stupid game but love to spend my time with a good one. And that involves a proper story and evolvement of that story. By the way, I do like the Iceland incident a lot. I think it's a good start for the story. I do see a lot of potential for this project and it would be sad if this would not be used to at least a good amount. In my opinion there are many plausible reasons why an alien race might want to invade Earth by the way.

Ah, the discussion is heating up. I like that and thank you for your replies. Of course it is just a game but that does not mean that one cannot and should not try to give it as much sense as possible. Referring to the thing being just a game is in my exes just some kind of excape when things get a bit more exhausting. Of course the given explanations for the scenario do not have to be bullet-proof. But I personally would like to see more than a superficial attempt at that. That's all I wanted to point out. And I believe that most players would appreciate and reward that. I do not say that Exonauts is one such. I do not have enough information on this project to make such a judgement. It is just that I for one simply do not like to waste my time on a stupid game but love to spend my time with a good one. And that involves a proper story and evolvement of that story. By the way, I do like the Iceland incident a lot. I think it's a good start for the story. I do see a lot of potential for this project and it would be sad if this would not be used to at least a good amount. In my opinion there are many plausible reasons why an alien race might want to invade Earth by the way.

It would be nice to get an immediate UFO bounty on shot down saucers, wouldn't it? In my opinion there should always be a crash site as long as there is at least a little of the wreck left. Suggestion: Only with overkill damage of 150% the UFO is completely vaporized. Plus there should be alien rescue missions to recover their downed saucers and personnel. I personally would like the feeling of a lot of geoscape action and of being (nearly) oveerwhelmed in some periods.

Hi max_caine, thanks for the links and the insight. I was talking in general, about the previous UFO games and what I think was problematic there and could be made much better. I understand that right now Exonauts is only in alpha so there is not much use in complaining about anything there in my opinion. So, me theorizing is just about the general issues and I hope that at the end Xenonauts will be an enjoyable game. That is, if certain things will be improved to previous games in the setting of "planetary defense simulation". I for one would prefer a certain feeling of (nearly) being overwhelmed by the aliens but I understand that this might be tricky to balance. And of course not everyone agrees to that. But for example some scripted events like UFO fleet attack with a UFO leader to be shot down might be very cool. I would love to design some maps, however it seems to me that whatever I do there, is unlikely to be of any or much use later (see "http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/2289-Maps-Made-With-Kickstarter-Version") so why would I waste my precious time now? At this point I am thinking whether I should back this project or just wait to see what comes out of it.

Thanks for the links, I am following those. Yea, and they want to conquer Earth with three saucers one after another? And make atmospheric experiments right above populated areas for everyone to see? No my friend. That is ridiculous (no offense buddy) and I hope the Exonauts' team is doing better than that. If the aliens had to experiment and adapt at all they would obviously do that on another planet or, if dependent on Earth, they would choose more uncivilised and less monitored areas like the Antarctic or Africa or South America. They would not give up the element of surprise and do a full scale invasion. We do need a proper and plausible explanation here for the game to be taken seriously. Speaking of, what about UFO fleet/swarm events? Well, do you have to land a saucer at the African XXX government to communicate with that country's leader risking being shot down by some dudes who are violating that countries airspace or can you identify the proper frequencies and let yourself be invited in by promising whatever nice to some corrupt human leader? Well, although I find that explanation a bit lame (no offense, but we humans tend to try again and again and again especially if we feel deeply threatened, don't we?) I hope that will be explained properly in the game. I would like to point out that I am very excited about this project and welcome it a lot. I love the general idea and concept and I hope that it will be as good as possible so that we all will have a lot of fun with it.

Cool ideas! I think there should be more going on on geoscape too. I would suggest however, that there be a lower level of unity despite global panic. Certain nations (North Korea, China, Cuba,...) might consider the whole UFO issue a Western propaganda plot and mistrust every capitalist nation. They might even think that the US managed to infiltrate highest levels of the Soviet government so all this is just a way to weaken their grip on their populaces. Certain nations might even refuse to pay anything at all as they are sure that someone else will do the work. Some (Pakistan against India) might even invite the aliens in to get the upper hand over their long time hated local rival... Just think of global warming today. A global threat, but many do not give a s*** or just concentrate on what their future advantage might be...

Drones can't and should not replace vehicles. Vehicles are operated by human beings (who can and therefore should earn experience in the game). If a vehicle is not operated by a human being, it is a drone. Drones function remotely and independently, probably according to pre-mission programming. Due to Cold-War computing capabilities I suppose there would be a need to salvage and/or re-engineer stuff (I'm agreeing with Gauddlike here). Vehicles might be controlled by wire but then they are not drones. Right? I would like to see these things in-game mainly because it adds features and reduces the chance of boredom. However, there need to be proper tactical uses for the equipment. Playing the old UFO games I - excited as I was - always tried out the vehicles (and drones) but always got rid of them after just one mission. They were always too inflexible, too easily destroyed and too expensive to be replaced regularly. And they did not gain experience (except for Afterlight where a limited and slow experience gain plus upgrades were possible) so there was no long term gain to the alternative of using soldiers. Only if too many soldiers were wounded you might have considered to use vehicles or drones. But then, without enough soldiers at your disposal, your game was already pretty much screwed. I vote for vehicles and drones that can be carried along independently from soldiers. Then there is no choice whether to use more soldiers. Vehicles should get a crew that can gain experience (for the same reasons jet pilots would add to the experience by the way, but are not as necessary in my opinion). Small drones (1x1 tiles) should also be available, after encountering alien drones and researching the loot. These should be relatively cheap scouts with limited sight (camera tech was not that great back then), maybe a flying and driving version with the choice of shorter 360 degree angle or farther but more limited shorter angle of 90 degrees. They could, on the higher or highest tech level, be able to carry a limited load of arms. Why not having one (or later more) special drone slot(s) in your transports? In Afterlight is was great fun to discover the drones, researching their upgrades but they came so late in the game that they did not add any useful uses in comparison to soldiers whom they would have had to replace, and their capabilities were so limited that it was just a big disappointment. I think these features would add a lot to the gaming experience. For balancing: If a scout drone would be so limited in its sight that a nearby rocket blast would take it out too, there's no danger that players would let their soldiers stay at the transport all the time. In addition, the ammunition of rocket launchers is usually very limited so you could never take out the majority of aliens right in the beginning. And if a sniper shoots at the aliens discovered by a drone they might usually know the snipers position due to the aliens' advanced communication tech very swiftly and will come for him... Or of course take out the drone first. And the aliens would use the same tactics humans use, too as they are not dumb.

I think that sniping as well as deployable heavier weapons like mortars or the like do not necessarily have to cause unbalance. These merely make it necessary to adapt tactics. To avoid a sniper you need to take better cover and close in on the position as fast as possible while the sniper is relatively immobile, to avoid the mortar you need to take its position as fast as possible. On the other side the aliens would try to concentrate their fire on a soldier who already took out many or reach the position of the mortar (which in my opinion would for the given reasons make only sense in special mission where the xenonauts had to take fortified positions etc.). This makes the game more interesting and in my opinion the greatest challenge of all UFO games and UFO-inspired games was and is boredom caused be repetitive missions. Not every missions should involve that stuff though. For the matter of balance: The sniper could get an accuracy penalty if its target moved a lot. A mortar could have the disadvantage that the round(s) would only arrive at the targeted area one turn later and - being not very accurate - would threaten civilians and cause damage you would want to avoid while dealing damage like a slightly bigger grenade and have a slightly bigger range than a grenade launcher etc. I really do not see any imbalance there. And such basic equipment would be available to a force such as the xenonauts, wouldn't it? On the other hand it is indeed true that the xenonauts are aiming at being very flexible and swift in their action, so a grenade launcher would do the trick as well if a high angle ballistic flight curve was needed against an alien in good cover. So if there were a mission where an alien heavy assault (which I loved in UFO Afterlight by the way) occured, there could be a mortar or super heavy machine gun or whatever available on the map as a special goodie that could be manned and used for that missions special purpose. That would spice things up a little, wouldn't it?

I think the dev time should be invested elsewhere. If someone wants goodies he/she should earn them by accomplishing the mission and bring your boys and girls back home safely. If someone wants to save time he/she does not need to engage in ground missions. If someone does not want to engage in ground missions but does not want a wreck lying around he/she should shoot down the UFO above see water... If you are in a mission and want to abort or end the game you can do that anyway (I hope).

didn't I find out about this game earlier?! Right, the title... But a retro-UFO is just awesome! Anyway chaps, I'm glad to be here now and greet everyone around. My suggestions: I would ask for as much realism as possible. This means that there should be answers to questions like "Why do the Aliens send one saucer after another instead of bombarding the planet and picking up what's left with a grand scale invasion without such risks and high losses as are to be estimated by sending one after another after another?" or "Why don't the aliens just manipulate the stupid humans into destroying themselves (which has been done by enough human nations before) instead of sending one saucer after another, making the humans aware of the aliens and giving the humans the opportunity to catch up on the alien's technology"? And this means that obvious tactical and strategic choices need to be answered one way or the other in the game too (bombardments, satellites, drones, space, why small teams, why only one defense organization monopoly etc.). Over the years I played all UFO games except for UFO Aftermath. The biggest mistakes that were made are in my opinion: boring and repetitive missions, periods without much felt progress in terms of research or new equipment especially in mid- to end-games, boring or ridiculous or comic-like aliens (especially in Apocalypse I still remember that marshmellow-thingie), not enough different hostiles and therefore boredom and repetitiveness, except for the original UFO:Enemy Unknown and UFO: AI mostly shallow base management, no diplomacy to speak of, ineffectice and therefore unusable vehicles and - finally - mostly a bad or repetitive tactical AI behaviour. I understand you are mostly finished with the game but hope that there is still an opportunity to enhance certain issues should they repeat those grand mistakes. In detail: - please no boring and repetitive missions (either many many maps, provide a map editor and I myself will gladly design some nice maps as I made the most balanced, most detailed, most realistic and best map for "Lords of Magic" or a proper map editor that works on coincidental creation for standard missions; better still a mixture of both) - a feeling of permanent progress meaning that at least every two or three missions there should be something, anything, new, either equipment or research - proper research where every research has some meaning and leads somewhere (I mostly ended up researching some techs like autopsies just to read the stuff and then reload to safe the time) - hostiles: please do design enough aliens and other hostiles (e.g. UFO Aftershock had 24 different hostiles, partly with different weapons and I found that that still was not enough as missions became boring) - please include a proper base management (possibility to have several bases with full options like choosing the position of the lift etc. like in the original, several floors would be nice, why not a special base organization screen, upgrades for certain base equipment would be nice, UFO AFterlight did that pretty well) - diplomacy (nations do have interests - might these even be insane from certain points of view - you know, plus dimensions like religion which I liked about UFO Aftershock a lot this would give the opportunity for special missions too) - please, oh pretty please do involve usable vehicles and - even better - drones. I loved the drones in Afterlight, unfortunately there is no UFO game that implemented any usable vehicle or drone. Ever. They could never make up with soldiers, not in terms of costs, firepower, flexibility - even in comparison to rookies - and I never used them at all except for trying them out and being disappointed afterwards. What about a drone slot in a higher tech level transport that can only be fitted with a drone, being recon or fighting? -AI: aliens and their devices should behave differently and evolve during the game, especially after experiencing failure. Don't you think that the aliens would not adapt their strategy and tactics quite fast? - It would be nice to have certain social or political pressure, too. Why not other, especially private, defense organizations, that want to earn some money too? Nations that try to overpower others if there's a power vacuum or which would grab that oil rich border area? Religious radicals or alien lovers (I liked that about Aftershock a lot)? Such things would certainly happen, don't you agree? - personalisation and identification with your staff is a must - I would love to play at least a few missions real hardball meaning that a lot of firepower is needed to overcome the aliens resulting in great destruction of the surrounding area. And no, I do not want to kill any civilians in the process. Cheers!