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Omnipotent Aliens


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I could buy into some of the more powerful psionic aliens having an ability that would allow them to "see" an area, or more specifically just living targets in an area. Maybe a three hex radius from the center point, and it would reveal the hostiles in the AoE, but not terrain, basically along the lines of looking for a consciousness that isn't one of theirs. Such an ability should not allow them to see the terrain in the area, or serve as squad sight for attacks other than Psi attacks. For the sake of getting you troops more than one move away from the drop point, the ability should most likely not be used during turn 1 or 2. Or maybe this could be a lingering ability (lasting for the following 1-3 turns on each target affected, maybe with a resist against it on each turn) that is a prerequisite for follow-up Psi attacks if a true LoS cannot be established.

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A save where someone is sure this LOS thing has/is happening would be a good start. Until that is fixed or tested to the point where it's confirmed as a non-issue trying fix or balance stuff that relies on LOS is pointless (like psionics.) Hopefully, it's something simple like test code that was accidently left "on".

Edited by StellarRat
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A save where someone is sure this LOS thing has/is happening would be a good start. Until that is fixed or tested to the point where it's confirmed as a non-issue trying fix or balance stuff that relies on LOS is pointless (like psionics.) Hopefully, it's something simple like test code that was accidently left "on".

Agree, I don't notice nothing wrong with Alien LOS or Behavior.

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A save where someone is sure this LOS thing has/is happening would be a good start.

Here's one: https://www.dropbox.com/s/09hfvxrjnqqresu/AI%20Issues.sav

(It's on a custom map, but that doesn't matter, right?)

Here's the situation as it starts at the beginning of the turn:

2014-04-23_00001.jpg

Prior to this, the Sebillian in the bottom left moved into my LoS, took a shot at the exposed soldier on the right, then headed into cover. There is no way it could have seen either of the two soldiers hidden behind the shed.

Test 1: Move the soldier behind the trough out of the way, leave everything else as is (waste the soldiers TUs to avoid reaction fire). The Sebillian's response in this instance is to hold its ground and fire at the exposed soldier (as you'd expect).

Test 2: Move the soldier behind the trough out of the way and move the exposed soldier into cover behind the mound. The soldier still has LoS on the Sebillian; I assume the reverse is true:

2014-04-23_00003.jpg

The Sebillian's response is to leave its position and charge forwards a few spaces. It then turns, and shoots at the soldier behind the shed (the soldier is now a puddle of blood and the Sebillian has moved back a bit from where it took the shot):

2014-04-23_00004.jpg

Fair enough, that could be expected: the Sebillian is moving forward to attack, detects the hidden soldier and takes the easy shot.

Test 3: Move the soldier behind the trough out of the way; move the exposed soldier into cover; and move the soldier at the top behind the shed around to the alien's flank. At no point is that soldier revealed to the alien:

2014-04-23_00005.jpg

The alien then moves backwards to get a line of fire on the flanking unit and shoots:

2014-04-23_00006.jpg

There's no reason for it to have taken that backward move without knowing the soldier is there. I've tested this several times now and the results are always the same, so it doesn't appear to be random chance in the AI calculation choosing to charge sometimes and retreat others.

It is instances like this that I have seen elsewhere: I think this is a fairly representative case in terms of what I've experienced. Hope this is useful.

(In case it matters, this is with 'Original' LoS mode on.)

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2014-04-23_00006.jpg.cccea6c187175795953

Edited by kabill
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Here's one:...
This is the same type of behavior I've experienced! The Sebs appear to have x-ray vision OR super hearing. Great presentation by the way. What I don't know is if this is only a problem with Sebs or happens with all races. One thing I have noticed is that it only seems to happen when you get within a certain range of the Seb. I've been able to get fairly close then suddenly they seem to know exactly where you are even if they are in a completely enclosed building. The range seems to be dependent on whether or not they can move far enough to engage your soldier. If they can move and get a shot off they'll suddenly develop x-ray vision. Edited by StellarRat
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What I don't know is if this is only a problem with Sebs or happens with all races. One thing I have noticed is that it only seems to happen when you get within a certain range of the Seb. I've been able to get fairly close then suddenly they seem to know exactly where you are even if they are in a completely enclosed building. The range seems to be dependent on whether or not they can move far enough to engage your soldier. If they can move and get a shot off they'll suddenly develop x-ray vision.

Yeah, this pretty much accords with my experience. In terms of distance, my memories of this issue are all of close-range encounters like the one detailed above. But this may well simply be because the stakes are higher (more chance I lost a soldier in those instances). Also, I wouldn't think twice about an alien coming into my sight range and shooting, even though in principle it might have done so because it knew there would be a shot rather than moving there randomly. Proving a problem outside of the rather specific context I've detailed above I think would be very hard!

In terms of it being a race issue, I seem to have memories of this with Sebillians over any other alien type. However, this might be down to other issues. For example, Sebs are more mobile and aggressive so might exploit this issue more. They're also more durable and more likely to take turns! And their durability means I'm more likely to try and sneak people up close for good close range shots. So it might just be exaggerated with them. In any case, legit reported an issue with a drone above, which implies it's not limited to Sebs only.

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I bears noting that this could very well be a completely different issue than the one that seems to be affecting psionics and super long range shooting. Where the aliens appear to have full view of the map for some reason. Those don't sound exactly like this problem. In this case you have to be fairly close to the alien to trigger the attack.

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In the AI script there is a value for the aliens that determine their capacity and possitive/negative reaction to sounds in game. Maybe the game is abstract enough to percibe that aliens react to this variable.

I strongly believe that this is the case. Some times coders make brillant system for aliens and is confused as a bug.

For me this reaction of the alien is plausible, not criticable. If you lost too much soldiers in a run you did ask yourself that is time to change strategy.

One day, long time ago I know a guy that says that he end the first Xcom in insane. At first time I dont believe too much until I see it playing. That man learn how to use or adapt elements to the tactic on his favor.

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In the AI script there is a value for the aliens that determine their capacity and possitive/negative reaction to sounds in game. Maybe the game is abstract enough to percibe that aliens react to this variable.

I strongly believe that this is the case. Some times coders make brillant system for aliens and is confused as a bug.

For me this reaction of the alien is plausible, not criticable. If you lost too much soldiers in a run you did ask yourself that is time to change strategy.

One day, long time ago I know a guy that says that he end the first Xcom in insane. At first time I dont believe too much until I see it playing. That man learn how to use or adapt elements to the tactic on his favor.

I'm sorry, but that is highly unlikely.

Chris has all but come out and said this behavior is not intended.

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In the AI script there is a value for the aliens that determine their capacity and possitive/negative reaction to sounds in game. Maybe the game is abstract enough to percibe that aliens react to this variable.

I strongly believe that this is the case. Some times coders make brillant system for aliens and is confused as a bug.

I thought this might be the case, but I'm not sure.

From what I can tell from the AI notes, all those variables in AIprops.xml are there to determine which tiles are valuable to move to, not what the AI can see or know. For example, the 'sound' function states that (where the value is negative) it attracts aliens to the spot the 'sound' came from. In AI terms, according to the notes, that should make the AI want to move into that tile. It should not tell the AI that there is a unit there per se.

This is an important difference, because if you look back at the example I posted, the alien doesn't move towards the spaces occupied by the soldiers that might have created 'sound', but instead moves into a position that it has LoS on those tiles so it can shoot. From what I can tell, then - though I might have understood the notes wrong - none of those values should be causing the behaviour I've outlined.

(I also did a little playing around with those values last night to see if they made a difference. It didn't change the behaviour at all. This said, I don't know whether all the AIprops values are saved with the GC save, so it's very possible that the changes didn't actually take effect.)

For me this reaction of the alien is plausible, not criticable. If you lost too much soldiers in a run you did ask yourself that is time to change strategy.

If it came to it, and this isn't or cannot be fixed (or is indeed intentional), then fair enough. But while the game is in development, and while it appears that it might be unintended, there's no harm in trying to correct it.

Edited by kabill
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If the the Sebs can see through walls as a result of a game bug, then I would like it to be kept in, as it does fit their profile of having bad senses at long range but very good at short distance. Trying to go through buildings requires more care when you have Sebs to deal with.

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If the the Sebs can see through walls as a result of a game bug, then I would like it to be kept in, as it does fit their profile of having bad senses at long range but very good at short distance. Trying to go through buildings requires more care when you have Sebs to deal with.

I can see it being a cool feature, but I don't think Sebs need any more cool features than they already have. Sebs are already very resistant to suppression, have a large number of hitpoints, regenerate and can see through smoke. Having X-Ray vision as well seems a bit excessive.

In contrast, I actually quite like the idea of it being a feature for Caesans and explained by psionics (I believe there might even have been planned a psionic power for detecting enemy units planned at one point). Certainly - Mind Control issues aside - Caesans are quite lame compared with other alien types. Except that it would break LoS psionics again. Maybe not then.

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Seems there was a slight issue in the AI that is giving them some knowledge of Xenonaut unit placement they shouldn't have. Only affects this specific issue rather than the wider LOS / psionics etc discussion, but Kabill's example helped us identify the issue. Hopefully it'll be corrected in the next build.

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Seems there was a slight issue in the AI that is giving them some knowledge of Xenonaut unit placement they shouldn't have. Only affects this specific issue rather than the wider LOS / psionics etc discussion, but Kabill's example helped us identify the issue. Hopefully it'll be corrected in the next build.

Thanks Chris.

I can see it being a cool feature, but I don't think Sebs need any more cool features than they already have. Sebs are already very resistant to suppression, have a large number of hitpoints, regenerate and can see through smoke. Having X-Ray vision as well seems a bit excessive.

In contrast, I actually quite like the idea of it being a feature for Caesans and explained by psionics (I believe there might even have been planned a psionic power for detecting enemy units planned at one point). Certainly - Mind Control issues aside - Caesans are quite lame compared with other alien types. Except that it would break LoS psionics again. Maybe not then.

Id rather not have bugs explained away as "features" please. It would be one thing if it were planned from the beginning, or explained in the lore somehow. But at this point it really is just an annoyance that makes flanking and tactics impossible.

Edited by legit1337
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Id rather not have bugs explained away as "features" please. It would be one thing if it were planned from the beginning, or explained in the lore somehow. But at this point it really is just an annoyance that makes flanking and tactics impossible.

I'm not sure why a feature should have to be planned 'from the beginning' in order to be worth including in a game. I'm fairly certain a lot of key aspects of Xenonauts were never in any kind of initial design document. While I understand perfectly the risks of feature-bloat and over-complicating things, I don't think that necessarily means that you should never include something which you come up with later if it's cool, doesn't break the game, and there's the resources to do it? As for lore, it's hardly static. It can be rewritten, and in that particular example with very little effort.

In any case, I wasn't suggesting actually implimenting what I was writing about. It was more just an idle thought that, in reterospect, it might have been possible to take the idea and turn it into a feature. I'm certainly not sorry to see the bug gone; I wouldn't have made the effort to try and pin it down if that were the case. I was, in other words, just thinking out loud.

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I'm not sure why a feature should have to be planned 'from the beginning' in order to be worth including in a game. I'm fairly certain a lot of key aspects of Xenonauts were never in any kind of initial design document. While I understand perfectly the risks of feature-bloat and over-complicating things, I don't think that necessarily means that you should never include something which you come up with later if it's cool, doesn't break the game, and there's the resources to do it? As for lore, it's hardly static. It can be rewritten, and in that particular example with very little effort.

In any case, I wasn't suggesting actually implimenting what I was writing about. It was more just an idle thought that, in reterospect, it might have been possible to take the idea and turn it into a feature. I'm certainly not sorry to see the bug gone; I wouldn't have made the effort to try and pin it down if that were the case. I was, in other words, just thinking out loud.

Apologies, I took that as a serious proposal.

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Question: How could I have a sniper with 2 levels of elevation get sniped by a plasma cannon wielding Andron in daylight from roughly 5 squares beyond line of sight?

There was a bug with some aliens knowing xenonaut locations when they should not. Apparently it is being fixed in the next build. Look at chris' posts in this thread.

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