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Proposed Suppression Model


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Are you bothered by the potential tactic of using a spotter and then using machinegun fire from outside the targets visual range to suppress it? If we ignore the chance of killing your spotter in that example, how about tying in the suppression value to the weapon range to make it less useful to suppress a unit from too far away?

You beat me to it! I think a good way to calculate suppression value would be something like, Suppression - range to target = suppression damage. Yes, I realize super-long range weapons wouldn't suppress very much (unless firing from up close), but that's not really their bag. Snipers are doing their job best when nobody knows they are there. You don't WANT to suppress your targets as a sniper, because then they hide in cover and you can't take em out. Ideally, they have no idea you are shooting at them until they are dead. If the job of a machine gun is to be loud and scary while not necessarily hitting that much, sniper rifles are at the opposite end of the spectrum.

To clarify: Taking cover from sniper rifles is a logical move in your advantage. Being suppressed by machine gun fire is a fear response that is intentionally caused by an aggressor.

EDIT: Another reason for range decreasing suppression damage that I just thought of... What about the melee attacking type aliens (assuming there will be some in the final game)? Reducing melee attackers to half AP is a pretty significant advantage, though I'd imagine they'd be very difficult, if not impossible to suppress.

Edited by JonVanCaneghem
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why is everyone so keen on supressing the alien they spot with the scout?

when you are given the chooise between supressing or killing your choise should be clear

the supressing mechanic is there so that you have some more tactical options like supressing aan high value alien for example a commander so you can close in and stun him witout beeing at risk of reaction fire.

the supresion on your troops gives the game even more of a feeling of choise and rewords or punishment for these choises do i shoot back and stay out in the open or do i move behind cover etc.

all this is made easy by the simple fact that when you select a target regardles of the bullets hiting him he gets supresion damage, and if you realy want to involve real life stuff into think like this on a battlefield no matter how far the shot lands you still take cover from enemy fire

sorry long post :)

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I think we'll add a check to the suppression calculation preventing weapons from causing suppression beyond their operational range. I came here to post up that I'd decided on that, but it seems it's also been independently suggested by the community too! I think that would avoid too much possibility for abuse of the system.

I'm not keen on using the bullet impact model really, or certainly not until we've trialed the current model. Not least because it's already half been implemented! Hopefully it'll be in the build released this weekend...

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Looking forward to testing this out, as I'm sure that suppression could play out very differently in practice than in our theories as discussed here.

Just out of interest, Chris, if you felt it were necessary, is there a way to make suppression affect units in cover differently to units in the open? It still doesn't make sense to me that a unit in the open would be slowed down (without having the ability to go prone, representing them being pinned) rather than wanting to get to cover asap.

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I think we'll add a check to the suppression calculation preventing weapons from causing suppression beyond their operational range.

Will there be a clear visual distinction so you can see where you can fire and where you can fire and suppress?

Would be pretty bad if the MG partially stopped working beyond some invisible border.

OTOH:

Shotguns have a relatively short range yet if you shoot a shotgun at someone at a decent range, that someone would see foilage and all kinds of other things disintegrate around him and would most certainly look for a healthier place to be.

So the suppression range should be higher than the "normal damage" range.

How about dividing suppression and operational range? It's definitely easier to balance things when you don't have to use workarounds because everything is intermingled.

Edited by Gazz
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Ok, so this is not strictly about (but somehow connected to) supression, but I didn't want to open a new thread

One of the more (as in really) annoying things that happened in Xenonauts were situations where 2 or 3 aliens were inside their ship which had only one entry (it was a medium ship a bit later in the game, don't remember the name).

So this ship had one entry, I knew that the aliens were in there because I had already cleared the map. So I positioned 5 soldiers outside the entry (took me about 5 turns in which none of the aliens moved). When I moved in, I had 2 dead soldiers before I could even get one shot off because the aliens inside took me out with their reaction fire as soon as my soldiers got inside.

All in all I lost (i think) 4 soldiers, even though I knew where the aliens were and had every time in the world to prepare for the assault. Lesson learnt, next mission I just fired rockets and grenades inside the ship until all aliens were dead.

This might be effective, but far from fun... To counter this, I had the following ideas

- Better level design (have multiple entry points)

- Blend grendades: Throw one in there to prevent reaction fire for the same round

- Lurk around corner: Ability to move from a corner without triggering reaction fire (takes more APs than walking)

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Your rookie whose bullets fan out and strike everywhere would likely cause suppression in unintended targets, making him actually better at it than someone who is more "on target".

Not in the system I was putting forward.

You may do small amounts of suppression to multiple targets but the more accurate person would do larger amounts of suppression to the person (or group) he was aiming at.

Remember that a single near miss would not be enough to fully suppress the target so your 'over suppression' by veterans opposed to massive area suppression by rookies scenario would be highly unlikely.

I can't say I have ever really fired into the ground in front of an enemy with the rocket launchers (which is probably the closest current example of the mechanic) as targeting the ground would also be likely to make all of your shots impact closer to you than your enemy.

Although nothing is stopping you from firing into walls or the ground to suppress someone, the rounds only have to be hitting near them.

If you wanted to use sound as the basis of suppression surely everyone in a certain range of the firing weapon would be affected rather than just the person it was pointed towards?

Realism can only go so far in turn based game mechanics.

The current system assumes that the targeted person knows he is the target and everyone else knows they are not the target, and they react accordingly.

Bullet suppression assumes that anyone who has a shot impact near them believes they are in danger and reacts to it.

Neither is entirely realistic but I prefer the latter.

On the range cut off for suppression it should hopefully be a fall off rather than a cut off.

A weapon that suppresses an area really well until the enemy takes a single step back, where it stops doing any suppression, is a very artificial game mechanic.

If the suppression effect gets weaker as you get further away then it makes more sense to the player I feel.

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This might be effective, but far from fun... To counter this, I had the following ideas

- Better level design (have multiple entry points)

- Blend grendades: Throw one in there to prevent reaction fire for the same round

- Lurk around corner: Ability to move from a corner without triggering reaction fire (takes more APs than walking)

I'm very much against Lurk around corner. It doesn't make sense to me at all and would probably be tricky to represent and how to even give the command.

I'm pretty sure it is going to be more fun when you get the equipable shield and smoke grenades. I'd prefer the smoke grenades over the blind grenades you suggest (they seem a bit too powerful if they are a sure thing, whereas smoke grenades would reduce the chance but not remove it.) Theres also the chance that with improved AI such situations will be far more rare.

OTOH:

Shotguns have a relatively short range yet if you shoot a shotgun at someone at a decent range, that someone would see foilage and all kinds of other things disintegrate around him and would most certainly look for a healthier place to be.

So the suppression range should be higher than the "normal damage" range.

How about dividing suppression and operational range? It's definitely easier to balance things when you don't have to use workarounds because everything is intermingled.

Are you assuming a buckshot shot gun? I thought the Xenonaut shotgun was a slug launcher? Why would a slug fired from beyond operational range disintegrate foliage?

Edited by Gorlom
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I only got half way through the thread before running out of time so...

I am quite concerned that once a unit has 0 suppression score, you can keep it with 50% AP indefinitely with say two rifle shots (assuming they are generating 9 suppression score and he regenerates 15-18 per turn). Given that a single soldier can happily fire 2-3 shots in a turn, this means you could suppress all 4 aliens on a Scout map and have 4 other soldiers mopping them up.

I would like to see them regenerate a little more (say 30-35)% bravery per turn.

I will give an example to see if this sounds like the intended mechanic;

an alien inside a building has just been suppressed (through a window) and has reached 0 suppression score on the human turn. On the AI turn it regenerates to 15 and moves away from the window 6 steps (having lost 50% AP previously). It can now no longer be effected by suppression from outside. However it lost any reserve AP this turn because it was inclined to move.

On the human turn a soldier storms in through the door, he burst fires the alien - 1 shot hitting and 2 missing (damn rookie). However, this is enough to put the alien back into suppression because he started the turn with 15 instead of 80. He now starts the turn crouched and can now only perform half the actions of normal - he's crouched so he has an accuracy bonus perhaps meaning a single shot (all he has AP for) on the soldier could be enough.

--

You know I started this comment not liking 25% but after giving that example its kind of cool.

I like the idea that you can influence the outcome of future engagements several turns ahead - but I still think that each engagement should feel dangerous and sufficiently independent from the things going on around. Allowing both camps to regenerate a little faster might help with the balance.

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Just noticed that the current suppression system differs from those that were discussed previously. It is very simplified - suppressed unit (the one who`s suppression score reached 0) is immediately taken off his next turn`s AP.

Suppressed unit`s next turn APs should be used as an extra suppression score. And when reaching 50% of the original AP value - it should remain so and not getting lower.

This way suppressed unit can recover from suppression faster (or simply regrouping/running away to recover in a safe place). And this way you wont be able to suppress the same unit each turn with a few shots - you`ll need lots of them to overcome regained suppression score and up to 50% of next turn APs.

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I think after you hit 0 suppression score you lose both the reserved AP and 50% of next turn in the current ystem. If I understood Okim's suggestion correctly, his suggestion would mean it requires more suppression then the system Chris worked out. As well as be more gradual suppression of the AP remaining the next turn. (rather then a binary system)

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The suppression system seem to be a bit on overdrive at the moment. Expected, being first release and all.

I had 3 guys breaching into a small scout, and since the reptiledude inside was facing towards one side, I threw my machine gun dude behind his back, promptly killing it. Two of my own guys were supressed by it. One of them was standing behind the machine gunner. The other one was to the side, and in no danger (short of an critical miss that would have sent the bullets going over 45 degrees over the target).

The soldier standing behind the machine gunner definitely shouldn't have suppressed. The guy standing in front to the side is debatable, but even then he was in no real danger of getting shot by the MG.

Friendly fire causing suppression might be a bit eh, but suppose it would make sense in a situation where your own troops go berserk (do they in Xeno?) or carelessly shoot in a manner where friendlies are in direct path of the bullets or very near it, but in the aforementioned situation, no.

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Friendly fire causing suppression might be a bit eh, but suppose it would make sense in a situation where your own troops go berserk (do they in Xeno?) or carelessly shoot in a manner where friendlies are in direct path of the bullets or very near it, but in the aforementioned situation, no.

Were those friendlies near the target of the shot?

Bullet path has no relation to suppression so the only reason they should have been affected would be if they were stood close enough to the target to be within the suppression radius of the weapon.

The MG is set to a radius of 5 tiles from the aiming point.

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Were those friendlies near the target of the shot?

Bullet path has no relation to suppression so the only reason they should have been affected would be if they were stood close enough to the target to be within the suppression radius of the weapon.

The MG is set to a radius of 5 tiles from the aiming point.

They were. But it shouldn't matter. If the soldier being suppressed is behind the soldier doing the shooting, it shouldn't matter if he's 1 tile or 10 tiles away, or if the target is 1 or 10 tiles in the completely different direction from them. They aren't being suppressed by anything.

That's the way the mechanics currently work, certainly, but I don't think that's the way they actually should work.

As things currently are, if you stack up at the UFO doors to charge in, the soldier opening the door can suppress his entire squad to his sides/behind him, if he fires off a burst at an alien standing near the door.

Edited by Kaguya
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I'm going to go with Gauddike and Gazz on this with there suggestion of doing suppression by bullet rather than fire mode. My reasons are as follows:

1. Balancing values for both single and burst fire is going to very time consuming and substantially increases the complexity of balancing the weapons. Looking at the stats as set so far, it simply looks like burst fire is twice as effective as single fire at suppression. A similar value would be achieved simply by having suppression tied to the bullet.

2. Having higher suppression values affected by armor means that there are instances when single shot firing a weapon will cause absolutely no suppression damage, but burst fire will suddenly be effective. For example if you have an alien with an armor of 20, the assault rifles will do no suppression when used in single fire mode, but will be able to cut through 20 points of bravery in burst mode. Depending on values you can end up with a weapon that is capable of suppressing a target without causing any damage to it.

3. The main benefit of burst fire of causing suppression is already taken into account of by the fact that you are firing more rounds/AP. For example, against an alien with an armor of 10 three shots of suppression value 20 (by bullet) is the same thing as burst mode damage of 40 (by mode).

4. Because of armor, the scaling of single and burst fire per bullet will be different for each firing mode based on the target's armor. In theory, if the APs are low enough for a weapon and the alien's armor is low enough there might be instances where single firing the weapon would be more effective at suppression (the parameters for this to occur would have to weird, but it is possible). Lets say experimental weapon X does 35 suppression damage in single fire mode and 60 in burst mode. If the AP for single firing is 10 and 30 for burst mode, if the alien has an armor of 10 single firing three times is more effective at suppression.

I have taken some liberty with weapon values to emphasize possibilities with the current system that are absent if one uses the by bullet method.

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Does suppression have a maximum range right now? I seem to recall that was being discussed.

Because an easy fix for the "suppressing people standing behind the shooter" thing would be to introduce a minimum range as well and make that range equal to or larger than the suppression radius.

And I don't think that close-quarters combat is really the intended scenario for suppressive fire to be used in anyway.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Back from lurkmode (got sucked into D3 for a bit with friends, then work/apt hunting/etc kicked up). :)

I see someone Max_Caine pointed to one of my recaps in the old thread @ http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/2164-Proposed-Suppression-Model?p=26695&viewfull=1#post26695 I'd like to point to http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/1551-Suppression-Mechanics?p=25855&viewfull=1#post25855

Effects of being suppressed:

Pretty much everyone in the previous thread thought less AP was bad after enough pages. Playing around with limiting a player to sprint or prone w/ corresponding danger vs speed could work, but the diner dash framework makes rendering too intensive to implement stances. As mentioned earlier, it makes no sense to halve your APs if you are suppressed in the open, given there is no option to go prone.

* Reduced chance (or no chance) for the suppressed unit to reaction fire. (tunnel vision in target).

* Higher chance for suppressed unit to be reaction fired upon. (mimicking the inherant danger in moving from a suppressed position).

* Reduced shot accuracy and/or limiting weapons to the first aim level depending on fire modes. (again tunnel vision, unwillingness to expose oneself to aim well, this is a penalty for being in a suppressed position).

I'm not sure on mechanics, but 1 and 3 may be possible with a nerf to the reaction stat.

Reduced vision range would be nice, but non-critical. It makes it more dangerous to run if exposed w/ no squaddies around, and further reduces your ability to just trade shots from behind cover.

Suppression mechanic:

I disagree (unsurprisingly) with the current suppression system, though I can understand the appeal of its simplicity. I like the idea of a having a radius around the bullet path (this would inherently include impact), both the range of this radius and the intensity/value of suppression would depend on what weapon the bullet was fired from. These would not be changed by either single or burst fire, there would just be more or less bullets that would have a chance or not of suppressing. This would automatically fix range - a shotgun should not suppress a long range target at all despite it doing more damage than the armor the target may be wearing. Shots should not go wildly off unless they are a ways beyond beyond effective range. Scaling down bullet damage in full auto mode could be a nice gameplay balance if not entirely intuitive (less aimed than even a snapshot, so likely to just hit a toe etc?).

Heavy weapons would have a larger radius of suppression around their bullet paths, so would be better at suppression and more likely to overcome range/accuracy limitations, but those still do matter. Honestly when I first read suppression radius, this is what sprung to mind. If it can't be done in the current framework, oh well.

A non-binary mode would also be nice. This can be accomplished in the UI: either have an icon for full or and one for partially suppressed, or have an icon w/ a little signal bar or number etc next to it showing suppression level. It could just jump from light/partial/full or something, each one reducing an aim mode / reaction penalties.

update: whoops, yet another thread: I do like the partials idea @ http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/2256-Supression-Feedback?p=27999&viewfull=1#post27999

Edited by erutan
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Rather than icons I still like the idea of a second bar that ticks up the morale bar to show suppression in the same way stun damage was displayed in x-com:eu.

If the effects of suppression were % based and tied in with suppression % then you wouldn't need to know levels or specific cut off points.

A glance at the bar with a large amount of it greyed out (colours optional) would show that the trooper was being effectively suppressed and in danger so should probably use smoke, get into a better position etc.

I also do like the idea of suppression radius being calculated along the shot path, the main reason I suggest impact point is purely because it seems easier to implement.

There are already ammo types with area damage, adding suppression damage and giving the shots a separate area effect for that would be less complicated than other methods.

Probably including the current one :P

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