Omnipotent Aliens

Ok, tonight while I was playing, I encountered my first moment in Xenonauts that made me scream "bullshit" at the top of my lungs.

I was doing a corvette crash recovery. I had cleared the surrounding area, except for one pesky drone who was cornered in a farmhouse. Half of my team was covering the entrance to the corvette, and the other was engaging the drone.

I kept unloading on him but he kept darting behind cover. I noticed a door that could let me flank him from the outside of the farmhouse, so I snuck my best guy around the side and put him right in front of the door. I was going to open it next turn and finish him off. Well surprise! The drone darts out of cover, moves all the way across the farmhouse to the other side provoking reaction fire from all of my guys who wound it, it then opens the door and proceeds to fire full auto into the face of my best soldier killing him outright.

WHAT!? How did the drone even know he was there? There were no other aliens on the map apart from the ones in the corvette. Even if it did somehow magically know, why would it risk reaction fire to hover all the way across the farmhouse? How do drones even open wooden doors?

I was seriously annoyed, but played on. When i breached the corvette it really started to get ridiculous. Sebs just kept pouring out, I didn't even take one step inside. The sebs just rushed all outside and got mowed down by machinegun fire like sheep. But not before blasting a couple of the breaching team (who were hiding by the side of the doors) at point blank range as soon as they got outside.

How did the sebs know that my breaching team was on either side of the door (they could not be seen from inside the UFO)? Why did they abandon a defensive position at the end of the hallway to run into machine gun fire on the off chance that they could shoot something before they were mowed down?

I ended up losing half of my team, which should not have happened if the enemy didn't have wallhacks of some sort. I won't lie, I ragequitted hard. So what is the deal with this? How does the enemy seem to know where ALL of your men are as soon as they spot ONE of your guys?

Honestly, I think they know where all of your men are ALL of the time, even if they've seen one or not. The most obvious indicator of this is psionics, which can affect your troops the moment you hit the end turn button on turn one regardless of position. I've had drops I went three full turns from the dropship without visual contact or a from-the-dark reaction fire, and had pinpoint psi attacks against my troops every round, specifically the SAME trooper every round. Nothing more frustrating than losing troops to berserk fire before you've even made contact with a hostile.

So maybe there is a bug currently where the aliens can see all of the soldiers on the map? This would explain why the berserk psi power, which is supposed to be LOS only is affecting soldiers who are nowhere near aliens.

Maybe some testing code was left in/on? It's happened before.

Have seen similar things to this - the aliens do seem to have a knack for knowing where your troops are. I know that Gijs-Jan has said before that the aliens "use a lot of inferencing on where you are". Maybe this is a little to strong at the moment and making their guessing a little too precise?

Not at all, they share the same LOS as the same way that you percibe the game.

Late game is becoming annoying, the alien turns takes too much calculations...

Had some problem with drones as well, they keep firing on my men and hiding behind corners, infuriating me in the process.

Not at all, they share the same LOS as the same way that you percibe the game.

Late game is becoming annoying, the alien turns takes too much calculations...

That is the thing though... There were no other aliens outside the UFO. It was just one drone hiding in a farmhouse. There was no way that he could have seen my trooper on the other side of the door.

I just had a similar experience this morning: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/9767-V22-Experimental-5-Hotfix-Released!?p=107731&viewfull=1#post107731

?When i breached the corvette it really started to get ridiculous. Sebs just kept pouring out, I didn't even take one step inside. The sebs just rushed all outside and got mowed down by machinegun fire like sheep. But not before blasting a couple of the breaching team (who were hiding by the side of the doors) at point blank range as soon as they got outside.

How did the sebs know that my breaching team was on either side of the door (they could not be seen from inside the UFO)? Why did they abandon a defensive position at the end of the hallway to run into machine gun fire on the off chance that they could shoot something before they were mowed down?

I'm sorry, but this has me laughing. This is exactly the "aliens emerging" idea I advocated in another thread, and you deemed ridiculous. Oh, so they DID rush you, and they DID kill a few of your guys in the process, and that led you to ragequit? This is really just too funny

Agreed, in the course of a single battle, or even several battles, to abandon the smartest strategy (i.e. holding a superior defensive position) is foolhardy. However, when lengthened into the context of a war, consistently adhering to the same textbook approach, no matter how smart it may be when applied to an individual situation, actually becomes stupid because it gives your opponent the chance to plan the optimal response. Patton in WWII is a prime example. He routinely abandoned defensible positions to force-march his men often straight at the enemy, not giving them time to prepare and throwing them into complete confusion.

Sometimes craziness pays off.

I'm sorry, but this has me laughing. This is exactly the "aliens emerging" idea I advocated in another thread, and you deemed ridiculous. Oh, so they DID rush you, and they DID kill a few of your guys in the process, and that led you to ragequit? This is really just too funny

It made me ragequit because it doesn't make any tactical sense.

Imagine getting told to run down a hallway directly towards two machineguns with no cover. "Why?" you ask. "I don't know, if you make it outside just blast the first thing you see."

I SLAUGHTERED them. They really had no chance. The fact that they killed a couple of my guys in the process is beside the point. They could have killed more if they stayed in the UFO and made a fight of it. I was merely remarking on the point they seemed to know my breaching teams were stacked outside the door without having seem them.

It made me ragequit because it doesn't make any tactical sense.

Imagine getting told to run down a hallway directly towards two machineguns with no cover. "Why?" you ask. "I don't know, if you make it outside just blast the first thing you see."

I SLAUGHTERED them. They really had no chance. The fact that they killed a couple of my guys in the process is beside the point. They could have killed more if they stayed in the UFO and made a fight of it. I was merely remarking on the point they seemed to know my breaching teams were stacked outside the door without having seem them.

Let's not debate the tactics here please (this applies to everyone, not just legit1337). It's "unrealistic" if the aliens abandon a defended position and attack the assault team outside the UFO, and it's "boring and passive" if they just hold the defensive position and don't do it. Let's not derail the thread by discussing which is preferable.

If the aliens are apparently omniscient then there's an issue in the game that we should be trying to address. The aliens shouldn't know where all your soldiers are all of the time and the LOS change to the aliens in HF5 was made to try to address a potential cause for that issue.

Aliens should have some limited ability to guess enemy locations, but not to the level of wallhacks. Save games showing this sort of behaviour would be useful if anyone has any.

Sebilians are supposed to be aggressive to detriment of their use of tactics.

I thought the point of them was that they have regeneration, poor vision, high toughness and high aggression so are more likely to rush you and are more effective when rushing rather than tactical camping.

Which I also assume is the reason for their use of the reaper.

Yeah, but the point being made in the OP is that the aliens should have to know a unit is there before they rush up to it and start being aggressive.

Yeah, but the point being made in the OP is that the aliens should have to know a unit is there before they rush up to it and start being aggressive.

The Sebs can 'see' through smoke with no problem, perhaps the same coding is allowing them to see through walls. Perhaps we shouldn't try to change this as the Sebs are supposed to have good senses at shorter range.

The Sebs can 'see' through smoke with no problem, perhaps the same coding is allowing them to see through walls. Perhaps we shouldn't try to change this as the Sebs are supposed to have good senses at shorter range.

That is the thing though... There were no other aliens outside the UFO. It was just one drone hiding in a farmhouse. There was no way that he could have seen my trooper on the other side of the door.

There are a "Nearest Enemy" variable in the game, every turn that the drone look at you all other aliens are moving toward you. Even if the drone see you the first time they set that value and probabilistic search.

In this game is too silly win.... why you don't stay in alien's ufo door and keep the cycle of "Open/Close".

2x Heavy weapons and 2x Shields.... you can even win the mission with 4x soldiers... the game has a faulty mechanics, maybe you don't want to use it because you know is not fair.

Let's not debate the tactics here please (this applies to everyone, not just legit1337). It's "unrealistic" if the aliens abandon a defended position and attack the assault team outside the UFO, and it's "boring and passive" if they just hold the defensive position and don't do it. Let's not derail the thread by discussing which is preferable.

LOL, Chris is tired about tons of complains. Calm down pal we'r only talking about, looking for solutions to makes alien combats more diverse. I had lot of ideas, lot ot them suggested in the mod.

Hey Chris what about mixture of "EnemyInfluence", "Enviroment" and "Trepidation", I notice aliens retreat when they have fallen comrades. Only in some of my test aliens begin a battle outside and when 2 or 3 aliens fall, they retreat to the UFO interior.

But one great suggestion, fix the UFO doors... make them unable to open... destructible but, only aliens can open it. In classic XCOM doors are dangerous becaus you always has a chance that alien open the door and make point blank shot.

Here so far, aliens can't open it to shoot you in the face. That's the only significant AI problem currently I think. They have to "move" to the tile on the other side to open it, can't just stand, open, shoot.

Here so far, aliens can't open it to shoot you in the face. That's the only significant AI problem currently I think. They have to "move" to the tile on the other side to open it, can't just stand, open, shoot.

And is their door... I'm looking for a way to lock the door completly and only aliens can open it.

LOL, Chris is tired about tons of complains. Calm down pal we'r only talking about, looking for solutions to makes alien combats more diverse.

Yes, but you can talk about that in a different thread. This thread is about fixing a potential issue with aliens being able to see / know where your soldiers are at all times and I'd like it to stay on topic because it's an issue I'm concerned about too.

Yeah, but the point being made in the OP is that the aliens should have to know a unit is there before they rush up to it and start being aggressive.

Thank you for understanding my point.

Yes, but you can talk about that in a different thread. This thread is about fixing a potential issue with aliens being able to see / know where your soldiers are at all times and I'd like it to stay on topic because it's an issue I'm concerned about too.

So you do think this an issue then? I posted a bug report in the proper forum just to make sure.

Yeah, I think there is a problem there. Or more than one problem with similar symptoms. It's potentially hinting at a fairly fundamental bug in the game somewhere, which is why it concerns me.

There's a few potential culprits. The first is that the AI could be too good at guessing where your soldiers are. I'm not fully sure how the system works tbh, but I can't go telling GJ to fix it or change it unless we're sure it's actually a problem with the AI. I think the aliens are able to intelligently extrapolate based on previous position of your soldiers, which could cause problems if another of the potential bugs below are in action.

The second is that the UFO hulls maybe aren't blocking LOS properly. That's happened a lot in the past (because we swap the UFO interiors and exteriors out when you go inside), but obviously it only occurs around the UFO.

A third potential concern would be a general bug in the alien LOS code, which allows aliens to see through things they shouldn't. It's compounded to an extent by the fact that props that the player cannot see sorta don't exist in some ways. Perhaps aliens are able to see through walls before the player makes them pop into existence?

The fourth complication is alien squadsight, which we adjusted in the last build. Previously the aliens had visibility over the full area that an alien had seen in their turn from the start of their move to the end, which meant you could move into an area that the alien had moved out of at the start of the turn and the alien would get vision on you. Because of squad sight, the entire team would also have vision on you - even though you might never have seen any aliens yourself.

We changed alien LOS to refresh at the start of the player turn too, so that won't happen any more....theoretically. But psionic power spam is happening without LOS when it shouldn't be, and some people are reporting aliens are firing at distances that should be longer than the alien sight ranges.

Those issues could all be unconnected, but equally they could be hinting at a fundamental issue somewhere in our code that is providing the alien team more vision than they should have.

Yeah, I think there is a problem there. Or more than one problem with similar symptoms. It's potentially hinting at a fairly fundamental bug in the game somewhere, which is why it concerns me.

There's a few potential culprits. The first is that the AI could be too good at guessing where your soldiers are. I'm not fully sure how the system works tbh, but I can't go telling GJ to fix it or change it unless we're sure it's actually a problem with the AI. I think the aliens are able to intelligently extrapolate based on previous position of your soldiers, which could cause problems if another of the potential bugs below are in action.

The second is that the UFO hulls maybe aren't blocking LOS properly. That's happened a lot in the past (because we swap the UFO interiors and exteriors out when you go inside), but obviously it only occurs around the UFO.

A third potential concern would be a general bug in the alien LOS code, which allows aliens to see through things they shouldn't. It's compounded to an extent by the fact that props that the player cannot see sorta don't exist in some ways. Perhaps aliens are able to see through walls before the player makes them pop into existence?

The fourth complication is alien squadsight, which we adjusted in the last build. Previously the aliens had visibility over the full area that an alien had seen in their turn from the start of their move to the end, which meant you could move into an area that the alien had moved out of at the start of the turn and the alien would get vision on you. Because of squad sight, the entire team would also have vision on you - even though you might never have seen any aliens yourself.

We changed alien LOS to refresh at the start of the player turn too, so that won't happen any more....theoretically. But psionic power spam is happening without LOS when it shouldn't be, and some people are reporting aliens are firing at distances that should be longer than the alien sight ranges.

Those issues could all be unconnected, but equally they could be hinting at a fundamental issue somewhere in our code that is providing the alien team more vision than they should have.

Time for a bug hunt.

As someone who has some coding experience, I feel your pain, I really do. I wish you the best of luck on finding out what is wrong, and that when you find it, it is fixable without having to rewrite massive chunks of code that could potentially break other things.