Build Time Balance Discussion

"Realism" is not a good argument. Games aren't realistic, and realism is often sacrificed for the sake of balance. Nobody wants to play a war game where you drive a truck for 5 hours, or dig a trench all day.

"Authenticity" however is a very good argument. Consider if a laser rifle took a month to build instead of the current amount of time. If that were balanced, would that be ok? Hell no. It doesn't make any logical sense. Sorry, but balance takes a back seat to common sense. It was why I had such a big problem with LMGs (a gun whose design purpose is LITERALLY sustained fire) having less ammo capacity than an assault rifle.

You can bend the rules, sure. But you cannot break them. The things that happen in the game have to follow some sort of understandable logic or suspension of disbelief is broken. Where that line is is debatable, but to trash on the OP for calling foul that a laser rifle takes longer to build then an aircraft strikes me as vindictive and narrow minded.

I actually happen to agree with some people here that laser weapons and wolf armor take too long to manufacture. If the game needs to be re-balanced for shorter build times on those weapons so be it, bring back overdamage or something to balance it out. But as it stands now my opinion is that it is too long.

I think it's only too long when compared to how quickly you build advanced aircraft like Corsairs, Maurauders etc.

Otherwise I'd think anything that keeps the workshops busy is kind of a good thing similar to how it would be bad if the research labs would have no projects for extended periods either.

Also forcing me to have evolving strike teams (aka where you only slowly replace equipment) feels right.

I guess you could reduce build times if you had consumables (e.g. ammo and similar) so that your workshops still needs to prioritize between different aspects of your base management

I have read this thread a couple of times and fail to see any comments I would class as vindictive or narrow minded, or anyone 'trashing' on the OP for that matter.

I see an exchange of views, some agreeing with the OP and some disagreeing.

Feel free to give some idea of how long you think makes sense to you for build times on infantry equipment and aircraft.

Looking at Max Caines numbers on the first page of the thread I don't feel that under 11 days to equip an 8 man squad with basic weapons is too long.

Maybe when coupled with the build time of 8 sets of wolf armour that may push it up to 20 days (as an estimate) to arm and armour a standard 8 man squad it feels like too long to some.

I wouldn't argue if those times were reduced a bit but I wouldn't like to see it go too low.

There's a lot of people arguing the realism point, and a few saying they don't have a concern with build time.

My question is this:

How would decreasing build time for weapons and armor affect game balance?

Ideally, once the bug is fixed, once made it never goes away, so really it's an alenium/money issue - and for a short period of time your unit's aren't fully equipped with the latest and greatest - but does that matter in the grand scheme of things?

The bigger issue is when you create a second squad, and need to outfit them. Suddenly your facing late game enemies, with basically equipped unit's - which is severely unbalanced toward the player. Or you plan ahead, and build the equipment early and it's a moot point anyway - Engineering in my experience isn't working 24/7 - it's really the money concern that holds me up - there's so much to spend money on, you have to balance what you need and when.

I have read this thread a couple of times and fail to see any comments I would class as vindictive or narrow minded, or anyone 'trashing' on the OP for that matter.

People essentially dismissing his argument completely out of hand without even considering its merit, with the reason of "balance comes before realism" doesn't fulfill that criteria?

Considering Max_Caine's numbers were based off of 2 fully staffed workshops. Yes, 2 fully staffed workshops should take a shorter time then 11 days to make 8 laser weapons.

But then again I opposed the overdamage-destroys-items removal. So my view of what "feels" right may be skewed.

Engineering in my experience isn't working 24/7 - it's really the money concern that holds me up - there's so much to spend money on, you have to balance what you need and when.

This is why - in my opinion - build times should not be decreased. Running 2 workshops for most of the game, I'm never in a position where my workshops are fully utilised. Partly that's due to resources, but its also partly down to not having things I want/need to build. Reducing build times would mean even more downtime, rendering engineers and workshops less important, and less competitive in terms of other options when it comes to spending your money. I'd much rather the game was encouraging me to build a third workshop than encouraging me to stick with one.

so i have done some messing around with unlimited money( well like 90 trillion) anyways, with that set up 1 full lab does not "feel" under powered this is on normal where as even with 2 full workshops the idea of keeping up with the things i need to build feels daunting; with me only pumping out exact load outs and i even skip jackal and buzzard, if something like the foxtrot gets a longer build time i would be very worried for my ability to even get aircraft in the air in time to fight the good fight without severe relations damage.

I would not mind the idea of reducing the build times of personal equipment base on difficulty, because i truly think the bottle neck will still be money other wise you can just build more workshops and reduce your build times that way

I would like to take a moment to point out skipping both the corsair and jackal armor seem to be very common choices people make, i don't want to call that a confirmation of any thing because its not; however it may be a symptom that workshops are a little strained.

* ! am assuming all changes people are thinking of are in the order of 10 or more man hours per item instead of something unnoticeable like 1-2

so i have done some messing around with unlimited money( well like 90 trillion) anyways, with that set up 1 full lab does not "feel" under powered this is on normal where as even with 2 full workshops the idea of keeping up with the things i need to build feels daunting; with me only pumping out exact load outs and i even skip jackal and buzzard, if something like the foxtrot gets a longer build time i would be very worried for my ability to even get aircraft in the air in time to fight the good fight without severe relations damage.

I would not mind the idea of reducing the build times of personal equipment base on difficulty, because i truly think the bottle neck will still be money other wise you can just build more workshops and reduce your build times that way

I would like to take a moment to point out skipping both the corsair and jackal armor seem to be very common choices people make, i don't want to call that a confirmation of any thing because its not; however it may be a symptom that workshops are a little strained.

* ! am assuming all changes people are thinking of are in the order of 10 or more man hours per item instead of something unnoticeable like 1-2

Essentially my conclusion in my hours of playtime. Although admittedly I did not experiment as much as you did.

Laser weaponry especially feels bad on that front.

I would like to take a moment to point out skipping both the corsair and jackal armor seem to be very common choices people make, i don't want to call that a confirmation of any thing because its not; however it may be a symptom that workshops are a little strained.

This is my belief as well - it comes down to resources as the limiting factor, which makes sense. The frustrating thing is that typically when you need to build this stuff, you're also needing to build a bunch of other things, so it delays everything and you suffer, but it doesn't feel like it's for a good, or believable, reason.

Keeping build times high does increase workshop usage, but it still ebbs and flows. the motivation to build more should come from wanting to do 2 or more things at once. It doesn't make sense to have 30 guys all working on building 1 small thing (given the scale of manpower for the game).

I'd actually be in favor of instituting a minimum build time, along with shortening it - basically limit how many guys can work on different projects. This forces you to consider how you need to divide your resources, and puts you in a position to build more at once - further allowing the player to put more strain on money and alenium - which increases the meta-game of managing those resources.

If I get a chance I will put together a small mod with reduced workshop times for people to try.

*edit* Found some free time.

I'd actually be in favor of instituting a minimum build time

maybe minimum is not quite the right word in my mind; i would however like to know if there is some ideal build time for most objects, by that i mean what Chris & Co would call the benchmark to build an item, so is 15 engineers per item the standard or is 30?, is multiple projects meant to be rewarded with less diminishing returns, or is that nuance not intended to do any thing other then put a choke point on manufacturing.

I can not float the extra funds to have more then one project going at a time, and when i try to i run the risk of them sucking up money before either are done and halting both projects, so i tend to just toss as many engineers as i feel i can afford into 1 project at a time; this seems like the only worth wile option at the moment, because your diminishing returns per are not big enough to warrant more then one project; at the same time your gains from spreading your self out yield almost no benefit, which to me seems a bit of a shame given the diversity of choices that effectively end up less choice and just prioritized lists, or skipped all together.

if any one knows would it be possible to have projects front load the deduction of funds so any time a project that gets started i would not have to worry about any other projects effecting the funding of others, but still leave me the ability to halt a project and takeaway its unused funds to keep the ability to resume later, so in essence give each project its own bank account; sounds too complex so might be a wasted thought.

Quick and rough edit of the manufacturing times.

All infantry weapons are 50% faster to build, aircraft and ground vehicles are 25% faster to build, vehicle weapons take the same amount of time as their infantry equivalent.

If anyone wants to give that a try and let us know how it feels compared to the current set up then feel free.

Just download the file and put it in the xenonauts/assets folder.

As usual back up your old manufactures.xml file so you can easily undo the changes later.

*edit* File was broken, will try again later maybe.

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My two cents in case the devs want to gauge people's opinions.

I think that while it is odd that a scratch built aircraft takes the same time as a laser gun, I agree that it is the Aircraft build time that needs to be increased, not laser gun/wolf armour decreased. In the OG, interceptors needed constant ammo purchases/builds, and any weapon upgrades had to be manually built, with ammunition built separately. And when they got shot down, you had to suck it up and spend another £500,000 to get a new one. And that's not even mentioning how the upgraded interceptors all required Elerium as fuel, so you couldn't just fly the Avenger out after every UFO you saw. With air combat in Xenonauts being more risky and happening more often, some of these shouldn't apply. Having upgraded aircraft require Alenium to run would be crazy, as the lower tier UFOs stop spawning after a while, so there is no need for lower tier interceptors. And having to rebuy/build any aircraft that are shot down would be a pain too, as with the more advanced air combat means the old tactic of sitting at max range where the Aliens can never hit you and firing Plasma beams/Avalances no longer works, so every air combat has the possibility of a destroyed aircraft.

But even so, Xenonaut Aircraft are a lot less of an investment that in the OG, with Free Refills of Ammo and Auto Weapon upgrades, and a brand spanking new aircraft free of charge if it get's shot down. One way to balance this would be to increase the build time of new aircraft significantly, so you need to have build your Corsairs/Marauders BEFORE the big boys show up, as waiting until the last minute would mean having to stave off a few waves using only Foxtrots/Condors. Another way would be to have a fine for recovering destroyed aircraft, as no matter how skilled an engineer, he will not be able to create a brand new aircraft from a burnt out hulk of metal.

Some of this information is wrong. X-COM aircraft weapons did not require ammo outside of the starter ones. The manufactured laser/plasma weapons did not take much resources to build at all. I never remember having trouble equipping aircraft.

The resources and time to build the craft themselves was often the pain.

Personally I think aircraft build times are too short in xenonauts, and the infantry weapons/armor build time are too long.

Some of this information is wrong. X-COM aircraft weapons did not require ammo outside of the starter ones. The manufactured laser/plasma weapons did not take much resources to build at all. I never remember having trouble equipping aircraft.

Fusion launchers required manufacturing ammunition. But the Plasma Beam aircraft weapons were so good (actually, probably better than the Fusion Launchers) that this was largely irrelevant. Indeed, the Plasma Beam is pretty much the reason why air combat in the OG was utterly meaningless.

Yeah it was mostly fast beelining to Plasma beam and even your measly interceptor can take out all but battleship. I only ever built avenger, of all other buildable ships because of this. It's fascinating that proper balance makes so much difference.

You raced to plasma because it was quite easy to get (not counting the Elerium to build) plus the laser with it's crappy range could only allow you to take on scouts, while Avalanche could allow you to even bring down Large UFOs.

TFTD changed a bit tech race and the DUPs didn't have the range but still the Gauss Cannon was crap to build anyway.

I'm not going to make any large-scale changes to the manufacturing mechanics at this point of development, but I don't mind altering relative manufacturing times.

The reason why manufacturing is so time-consuming now is to ensure that engineers have something to do and that workshops are useful, so I don't really want to shorten the production time for the weapons / armour. I might consider upping the manufacture times on aircraft though.

I'm not going to make any large-scale changes to the manufacturing mechanics at this point of development, but I don't mind altering relative manufacturing times.

The reason why manufacturing is so time-consuming now is to ensure that engineers have something to do and that workshops are useful, so I don't really want to shorten the production time for the weapons / armour. I might consider upping the manufacture times on aircraft though.

Why?

I agree that aircraft building time is too short and needs the bump to be longer. But as many people have pointed out, the limiting factor on workshops is never resources or money, it is ALWAYS build time. Why exacerbate a problem? 2 fully staffed workshops should be able to do more than .8 laser rifles a day IMO.

Why?

I agree that aircraft building time is too short and needs the bump to be longer. But as many people have pointed out, the limiting factor on workshops is never resources or money, it is ALWAYS build time. Why exacerbate a problem? 2 fully staffed workshops should be able to do more than .8 laser rifles a day IMO.

If the limiting factor on production is time rather than resources/money, doesn't that mean that you can just build another workshop and hire some more engineers and solve the problem?

Regarding laser rifles, why is 0.8 laser rifles a day such a terrible number? That allows you to build a squad's worth of weapons in ~15 days at most (depending on the size of the squad and adding in some excess for precision/scatter laser which I think have higher build times). That's 2 alien waves during which you're still building equipment, which likely equates to 2-4 missions depending on how much air-striking you do and air coverage you have. That seems pretty reasonable to me, bearing in mind that you'll get some of those weapons in time for these missions as well.

No one seems to have tested or provided feedback on the quick mod I put up with reduced manufacturing times for infantry weapons.

Is it that there is limited interest in that route?

I can try again with normal infantry construction times and increased aircraft construction times if that would be preferable.

I would prefer to keep the vehicle construction time lower though if possible to encourage their use.

I find it quite discouraging to have to rebuild them when they are destroyed if it takes too long.

*edit* Is there any interest in extending the indestructible status of aircraft to ground vehicles so they are not outright destroyed but can be repaired?

If the limiting factor on production is time rather than resources/money, doesn't that mean that you can just build another workshop and hire some more engineers and solve the problem?

Regarding laser rifles, why is 0.8 laser rifles a day such a terrible number? That allows you to build a squad's worth of weapons in ~15 days at most (depending on the size of the squad and adding in some excess for precision/scatter laser which I think have higher build times). That's 2 alien waves during which you're still building equipment, which likely equates to 2-4 missions depending on how much air-striking you do and air coverage you have. That seems pretty reasonable to me, bearing in mind that you'll get some of those weapons in time for these missions as well.

1 Lab is enough for the first 2-3 months of the game.

By the same logic 1 workshop should be enough to meet manufacturing needs for that period. As it stands now you need at least a workshop in each base, plus another one in each base when you start manufacturing laser/wolf. That is 4. 6 If you have 3 bases by the start of month 4.

Otherwise there is an imbalance between workshops and labs. Perhaps you SHOULD need more workshops then labs, but having bases full of nothing but workshops just to "break even" seems a little dumb.

No one seems to have tested or provided feedback on the quick mod I put up with reduced manufacturing times for infantry weapons.

Is it that there is limited interest in that route?

Have not had the chance yet.

1 Lab is enough for the first 2-3 months of the game.

By the same logic 1 workshop should be enough to meet manufacturing needs for that period. As it stands now you need at least a workshop in each base, plus another one in each base when you start manufacturing laser/wolf. That is 4. 6 If you have 3 bases by the start of month 4.

I've never found cause to build more than a second workshop any time before the beginning of January (what, month 5?). At that point, I'm stretching my manufacturing capability; I'm also usually stretching research capacity as well though so its a toss-up between which I build. So six workshops seems an absurd amount; I've no idea what I'd do with all that manufacturing power!

I can only assume there's a massive difference in how we approach the game. I only run with a 15-soldier squad in my main base and 2-3 manufactured planes across three bases (2 Foxtrots and a Corsair when they pitch up). I can only assume that you (and other people unhappy with build-times) are running with a lot more than this; it's all I can think of that explains what you'd do with all those workshops.

I guess the issue is, then, what kind of play-style should build-times be supporting? Obviously, I'm happy with how things are at the moment - it's quite possible to be on top of the game using this 'lean' approach and I don't see the need for massive amounts of soldiers and equipment. But I guess if the intent is to support a different kind of game to that, then I don't have any reasons to object any longer.

http://www.filedropper.com/manufactures

Quick and rough edit of the manufacturing times.

All infantry weapons are 50% faster to build, aircraft and ground vehicles are 25% faster to build, vehicle weapons take the same amount of time as their infantry equivalent.

If anyone wants to give that a try and let us know how it feels compared to the current set up then feel free.

Just download the file and put it in the xenonauts/assets folder.

As usual back up your old manufactures.xml file so you can easily undo the changes later.

I will be trying this out starting today. I don't think reducing build time of ground vehicles and aircraft is necessary, however. I actually think it's pretty well balanced where it's at for those. Possibly it could be longer, but right now foxtrot comes up with an acceptable padding to when larger ships start showing up.

Edit: I actually restored the vehicle and aircraft build times to see how just the weapon mod works.

I have never had a huge problem outfitting my first squad with laser - yes it's slower than I'd like, but the progression of enemies scales up gradually as you get your squad equipped. It's the second squad that is a lot tougher, due to needing to build other things at the same time when you equip them - plus the disappearing equipment bug causing some additional heartache which highlighted this (basically trying to equip 2nd squad AND re-equip 1st squad)

But because of the way the enemies ramp up, I also don't think allowing for a faster build time will significantly impact gameplay balance. You might, for a time, be slightly better to deal with your enemies, but no more so than later for the same type of craft (Scout, Corsair).

I've never found cause to build more than a second workshop any time before the beginning of January (what, month 5?). At that point, I'm stretching my manufacturing capability; I'm also usually stretching research capacity as well though so its a toss-up between which I build. So six workshops seems an absurd amount; I've no idea what I'd do with all that manufacturing power!

I can only assume there's a massive difference in how we approach the game. I only run with a 15-soldier squad in my main base and 2-3 manufactured planes across three bases (2 Foxtrots and a Corsair when they pitch up). I can only assume that you (and other people unhappy with build-times) are running with a lot more than this; it's all I can think of that explains what you'd do with all those workshops.

I guess the issue is, then, what kind of play-style should build-times be supporting? Obviously, I'm happy with how things are at the moment - it's quite possible to be on top of the game using this 'lean' approach and I don't see the need for massive amounts of soldiers and equipment. But I guess if the intent is to support a different kind of game to that, then I don't have any reasons to object any longer.

You sort of need a second fully staffed workshop in order to produce laser/wolf with any kind of speed. Even with two workshops going at full capacity you are still looking at 16-25 days (depending on loadout) to fully equip a squad. And I usually have 3 squads spread across 2 -3 bases by the beginning of december. So, averaging 20 days a squad, that is 2 months of build time, just to equip my men with lasers/wolf. That is not even counting the time spent on building aircraft, hunters, and jackal armor. Even with 4 fully staffed workshops you are still looking at a month or more of build time just to equip your troops.