My Thoughts on Xenonaut

Limiting equipment with engineering won't help anyways, because it is easy to manufacture equipment right now (as it should be).

As I've written in an earlier thread about shields, it is easy to set up manufacturing of specific equipment. Building an additional workshop at one of the bases is cheap and another 15 engineers will take only 75k per month. Then you will have to pay for grenades which can't really cost too much or take too long to manufacture - they are expandable equipment after all and making them costlly either in money or manhours is a direct statement to players - do not use this item. It just adds tedium to the game, which frankly is not a solution at all.

Best would be to reduce their damage, either directly or by increasing armour on aliens troops - afterall aliens already have access to super alloys, so high temperature resistant armour can't be too much problem for them.

In similar vein, disabling fusion variants of grenades and rockets could be a solution for endgame grenade spamming. AFAIK, rockets are superseeded by singularity cannons so no real reason to have them upgraded 4 times (Alenium-Plasma-Fusion - Singularity Cannon) instead of 3 (Alenium- Plasma - Singularity Cannon). I do know that singularity cannons are much less versatile - you need a soldier in predator armour and can't stun, but stunning in endgame isn't on my priority list and there are better tools (electroshock grenades) to do that job.

By the way, are fusion grenades in lore stated to be mostly thermal in effect or they produce both a shockwave and a ball of plasma, like a normal nuke would?

Edited April 17, 2014 by Beltorn

But they are close combat - soldiers with strength of 60 can throw about half screen which is general a little further than shotgun range.

Yeah, and that's about two times further than you should be able to throw one.

Best would be to reduce their damage, either directly or by increasing armour on aliens troops...

I totally disagree with this. Making them less accurate, so direct hits are rare at all but the closest ranges and reducing splash damage will have the same effect, but will also allow the player to have the satisifaction of occasionally blowing an enemy to kingdom come.

Then they would be totally useless - because at that range I would prefer to use Auto Fire.

Then they would be totally useless - because at that range I would prefer to use Auto Fire.

They would still be useful if the direct hit damage was powerful and the enemy was behind cover of some kind OR there was a group of enemies. I'm not saying they should completely miss all time. They land close enough to do splash damage most of the time, but grenades landing right in the tile you aim for should be less frequent. Besides, if Chris nerfs the damage because of grenade spam they going to be useless anyway, IMO. Edited April 17, 2014 by StellarRat

Then maybe if any kind of nerf makes them useless, they aren't that OP after all. In OG you also could just win by throwing alien grenades and most enemies except mutons I think would just die and you could throw quite far and quite accurate.

In the same manner you could just pack only rocket launchers and forget about any other weapon.

Edited April 18, 2014 by silencer

StellarRat, what are your thoughts on discarding the fusion upgrade? And how much do you want them to scatter - 1-4 tiles?

First off I like to say I'm glad to be able to participate in a cordial forum online. It is a rare thing in the many games I've played.

Thanks for the feedback, it's always useful to hear from new players.

Firstly, would you mind letting us know if you play on V21 Stable or V22 Experimental? Also are you playing Normal or Veteran difficulty?

It's also worth noting that your weapon balance paragraph rests on the premise that grenades are overpowered, which is useful feedback but only to an extent. Why don't you try a playthrough without using them instead? If we nerf the grenades then most of what you've said quite possibly would not apply any more.

Played on V21 Stable. Normal mode initially.

When I first played, I didn't use grenades much during my first few crash sites even though I armed my men with it. It was only after I got frustrated with having to reload constantly when basic tech weapons missed or failed to kill that I decided to load an alien with 3 grenades every time when ensuring a kill was important.

I think he needs introduction to Warrior/Elite type of aliens where grenades aren't that powerful.

I'm currently at operation end game. I just give the androns 2 plasma/fusion grenades.

Ironman Mode with Grenades

So I went on ironmade mode on insane difficulty.

The only real difficulty I see in that mode was that... I built my base in North Africa and I get tons of UFO spammed in the American continent. Nothing I can do about it. That's something that should be changed because punishing a player for circumstances beyond his control isn't quite fair.

Everything else that comes into the Europe - Middle East - Africa segment was shot down and decimated. I made sure I had 6 hangars and as much foxtrots as I could starting out (once researched).

On Grenade Spamming Efficiency at Higher Difficulty

I had 6 men with Shields and Stun Batons, 2 men with Sniper Rifles but all of them loaded up with grenades, smoke, stun and explosive on a chinook.

Who cares about return fire? Shield protects me, Smoke reduces enemy accuracy and I don't worry about smoke affecting my accuracy because I'm throwing grenades. Eventually I realised that grenades started hurting my income (to the extent that air-striking was more profitable), so I brought stun batons. Blow aliens up in the open and when in the UFO, go police brutality on them. There isn't a need to worry about insufficient progression.

I rotated 2 full core of 8 men (16 soldiers top), shot every UFO down over land and took everything that I could.

That ran into a problem when I first met Androns because I didn't had any effective weapon apart from my grenades which just makes me think... okay load as much grenades as you can.

The problem is that grenades don't really miss much, and their damage scales well with your research whilst also requiring no investment to upgrade. So I can see how grenade spam might break the game. I might give it a try and if it feels OP then I'll just reduce the damage scaling on advanced grenades.

The problem with grenade efficiency is not because of grenades but because your ranged weapons are not up to the task. The player is faced with a choice of shooting at say a Sebillian which has pop up around the corner within grenade throwing distance. Assault Rifle isn't going to kill him and even if it does, by the time you're done shooting, you're exposed in the open and if he survives, return fire and good luck to you.

That's why throwing a grenade and running to cover is optimal.

Terrain:

Weapons:

I agree that more weapon variation would have been nice but I don't agree with your assessment of some of them.

Shotguns for example are great damage up close and have a modifier to the users reflex stat making them better at avoiding and making reaction shots.

When breaching that is a useful combination.

The carbines you mention were replaced by shotgun type weapons a few builds ago because the shotguns were seen as more useful.

There was talk of bringing a true carbine type back in later tiers but I don't know if that is being done.

...

Any other suggestions on how grenades could be made more balanced with the other weapons?

Note to Gauddlike: I read that on the forums and I did arm a soldier with a shotgun but I proceeded to throw grenades instead because I could ensure a kill.... the best solution in breaching is still to "smoke up" and proceed to use explosive/stun grenades or stun batons etc. Or let the Shield guy get all the aggro then the rest clean up.

I like to stress that you should NOT nerf the grenade. It is the effective range of weapons and their respective uses that needs to be considered, not grenades.

If engagement distances between Aliens and Operatives occurred at a greater distance, grenades will occupy a niched spot in providing high firepower with slight inaccuracy when aliens close in or in specific circumstances such as tossing grenades around corners, overhead etc.

Thereby the player will get to evaluate between shooting from afar with rifles and sniper, risking exchange fire etc vs navigating terrain and coming close to grenade a position.

Using grenades in real life is very dangerous because it's difficult for the thrower to escape the blast radius and you have to get very close to the enemy. Normally they are thrown when thrower can immediately get behind cover or targets location will shield the thrower (behind a solid wall, through window, round corner, etc...)

The game has modelled grenade use correctly actually... when suppressed, a person should be able to toss a grenade, smoke or explosive depending on the situation and that is a real life tactic as well. The blast of a grenade is subject to many elements such as the terrain. It is mainly an issue if you don't hit the deck. More over, the grenades simulated here appears to be offensive grenades not fragmentation (or defensive grenades) as evidenced by their small blast radius.

Stun Grenades

They seem abit useless in high difficulty. I popped about 4 stun grenades on a single sembillan in one of my missions and I failed to knock him out. The gas was so thick, I can't even see anything in it.

On Weapon Variety

The main aim of any military unit is to be armed to deal with the greatest variety of scenarios possible. If I went with shotgun/carbine builds, I am gimped at range. If I went Rifle + Grenades, I have both long range, short range covered with the added bonus of burst fire.

Terrain:

Drop ship:

That useless drop ship also allows you to carry more troops than the others which makes it useful to me.

The drop pods are not the most useful feature and still need work but I think dropping your troops next to the enemy ship so you don't have to bother with half the ground combat would be an incredibly bad idea.

Good in real life, bad in a game.

Alien AI:

GJ has done a good job improving the AI so far but I would also like to see it switch around a little more so you don't know what they will do next.

In a previous build aliens acted as you suggest, hunting down and swarming the player.

People didn't like it so it has been changed and that change is still being balanced.

Crash sites:

Maybe some of your concerns will change when you are not playing on normal mode.

Veteran and above will be balanced for people with experience of this type of game while the lower difficulties make the enemies significantly weaker.

You should really be forced to consider the danger of the mission when thinking about airstriking or attacking on the ground.

If you are not then it is a balance issue.

What would you suggest as a way to increase the danger level of the missions you have played?

Dropship - I agree. I use it for carrying 16 troops and to reach crash sites faster.

AI - That's a bad idea. Right now when the aliens outside the UFO are killed. I just get everyone to march up to the front door of the UFO, breach and clear... like it is a training mission and disregard fire and movement.

Crash Site - At the insane difficulty... Airstrike actually gives me more money because I blew everything up with grenades... until I used the stun baton tactic. Then it is back to a matter of convenience again...

To increase the danger of the mission as mentioned in my post... give aliens more intelligence by setting them to go on missions and be ruthless. Go suicide bomb, position themselves in multiple ambushes, get them to spring out all at once in one turn to mow down the player etc.

The only danger I felt was the "Massive" UFOs that could mind control + cause soldiers to be filled with dread. I used air strike on them until I eventually realised that I cannot capture an alien leader unless I took on such a mission. Completed one with 2 soldiers dead = ( however I think that is a problem more so with balance than with actual... risk that the player can control.

In closing... I like to say that throwing a grenade accurately is only difficult only when you're in a prone position...

[ATTACH]3375[/ATTACH]

Here's a save file of that perfect situation I am describing where a player chooses between using a grenade or a rifle. Given that situation, would you choose to move all you guys awkwardly in front and try to shoot that sembillan down? Or would you rather drown it in a flurry of grenades? (I used 2 grenades in that situation). Remember even if you opt to hide away, he can chase after you and still kill you... reaction fire may also not work for you etc.

Perfect Situation.sav

Perfect Situation.sav

I'd double the grenade explosion radius, make splash damage lower and fall off faster and make throwing them less accurate.

A cheap though effective tactic against berserk and mind control is to drop weapons at the end of a turn. it costs 0 Tus and if a soldier berserks he/she won't spend any Tus on shooting an will be immediately available. And if they are a victims of mind-controll, they won't pose any danger. Also you still get bravery points this way.

On money: you get around 200k $ for each massive ship, so taking only 90k for airstriking is rather limiting.

@afriend - and what if you replace grenades with Rocket Launchers? More range, better explosion, hits most of the time. You see this also could be abused. You've noticed that grenades destroy items so you prefer to earn 50k for Aistrike, but with little more work you could earn twice that when using normal weapons which aren't crap at all. It is suppose to be hard at the start, but surely once you get all your soldiers worked up and weapons on par with aliens everything is better?

I also have to disaggree on the Opness of grenades. Just because one player thinks they are an optimal strategy for him doesn't mean they're op.

It's good that the game allows for multiple strategies.

As the OP allready said, he got into money problems because of his grenade spamming, which is why i rarely use them.

Crashsites fuel the xenonauts operation by giving a good amount of money.

Grenades may be good in tactical combat but using them cripples your strategic war against the aliens, which is how it should be.

In my opinion the grenade balance is exactly the way it should be.

This ^

I haven't used grenades all that much so far save for flashbangs, smokes and stun grenades. I feel that the explosive grenades are a bit tricky to use properly but they have their uses in blowing up tough enemies. Maybe it's the Steel Panthers player in me but I prefer to suppress the enemies and then just shoot them to shreds at close range. Also the ground combat missions yield significantly more money than airstrikes if you don't wreck the alien equipment.

I do feel that the aliens could be a bit more proactive. I'm not sure if rushing players at the landing site 100% of the time would be a good idea but the aliens could try to help their comrades outside of the crashed UFO, go out after a waiting a couple of turns or in some cases just stay inside. I can imagine that non-combatants would like to stay in the safety of the UFO, but soldiers/guards should probably be a bit more proactive.

In most strategy games you can use a simple one-sided strategy to win. There is no thing like balance, using single things in a massive way is mostly 'I win'.

8x RPG? I win.

8x MG? I win.

8x Grenades? I win.

But, nerf them because of it's possible that way?

The problem with grenade efficiency is not because of grenades but because your ranged weapons are not up to the task. The player is faced with a choice of shooting at say a Sebillian which has pop up around the corner within grenade throwing distance. Assault Rifle isn't going to kill him and even if it does, by the time you're done shooting, you're exposed in the open and if he survives, return fire and good luck to you. I like to stress that you should NOT nerf the grenade. It is the effective range of weapons and their respective uses that needs to be considered, not grenades.

If engagement distances between Aliens and Operatives occurred at a greater distance, grenades will occupy a niched spot in providing high firepower with slight inaccuracy when aliens close in or in specific circumstances such as tossing grenades around corners, overhead etc.

I think this is kind of what I was saying. Compared to the effective range of the firearms the the grenades are insanely accurate and have much longer range proportionally then they should have. We're just looking at it from opposite ends. So, you can either shorten the grenade range or you can lengthen the firearms range so the ratios are closer. Part of the reason for the rilfes and grenades to be so mis-matched is that maps aren't really the right scale. People thought the grenades "looked" silly when you couldn't throw them very far, even through with the range compression on the map it was closer to the right distance compared to a rifle. The drawing scale of tiles is 1.7 meters per tile if I remember right. So, it should be possible to toss a grenade about 20 tiles, but it should also be possible to easily hit targets with the rifle from 117 tiles away (200 meters). The sniper rifle would probably hit 100% of the across the entire map. So, GH compressed all the ranges by about a factor of 10 so range mattered, but the grenades weren't compressed enough because it looked "silly" to the players for a grenade to only go 2- 4 tiles even through proportionately it was the right distance.

If the scales were correct proportioned, in the situation you described, the troops would have had a 100% chance to hit with every round even on burst fire. Logically you chose the grenade because it's much better than it should be comparatively due to the compression being off.

Edited April 18, 2014 by StellarRat

AI - That's a bad idea. Right now when the aliens outside the UFO are killed. I just get everyone to march up to the front door of the UFO, breach and clear... like it is a training mission and disregard fire and movement.

...

To increase the danger of the mission as mentioned in my post... give aliens more intelligence by setting them to go on missions and be ruthless. Go suicide bomb, position themselves in multiple ambushes, get them to spring out all at once in one turn to mow down the player etc.

Not sure why you think allowing the aliens to change their AI to react to the situation instead of being permanently locked into one mode is a bad idea.

Your suggested options don't really help with the situation you describe in the first section either unless the aliens can switch modes.

If aliens always charge you sit and wait for them, when they are dead you move up and wait for the next set.

If aliens always run out of the UFO when they get attacked you set bait and mow them down as they walk out.

If aliens can try charging but when it doesn't work out they can decide to fall back and ambush, then maybe fall back to defend the dropship you have to adapt your tactics as they adapt theirs.

As I said previously, I rarely bother with grenades, I would rather set up a squad with a balanced weapon loadout and play the game.

If GH decides to implement the new realtime FoV, they could maybe compensate it by upping the viewing distance to... say 20 tiles. This could allow for a bit longer effective range for weapons and that could differentiate grenades nicely from them. Then just decrease grenade accuracy and splash damage and up their blast radius and call it a day.

If GH decides to implement the new realtime FoV, they could maybe compensate it by upping the viewing distance to... say 20 tiles. This could allow for a bit longer effective range for weapons and that could differentiate grenades nicely from them. Then just decrease grenade accuracy and splash damage and up their blast radius and call it a day.

I like this solution very much. Especially the expanding of grenade AoE, while reducing splash damage. The very small radius of the explosive grenades feels very awkward to me, so I've stopped carrying them mostly. If they were more for AoE damaging (and killing on direct hit) I think I'd use them more often.

I read and agree with too much points review here. Weapons in the game need a complete review and changes, specially the grenades. I know that it will sound repetitive, but all players that want to make a real contribution, please test XNT - ITD mod. This mod is made taking in consideration all the opinions recopilated in the forum and let make a interesting analysis about the game and their reach.

In my opinions all weapons lacks of their main element:

- Rifles miss to much and if you spend all your fire upon an enemy hardly get killed.

- Explosives deal good damage but his radius of effect is far to consider it as a explosive.

- In general accuracy system is absurd, if you have uncovered at 12 meters full rifle round would impact about 3 times or so on.

- All the AI needs to be reevaluated.

I hope you guys give a chance to test a different build, because is there to hear your opinions.

I find the item destruction already preempts me from using grenades excessively. When facing a dangerous situation I will use grenades to neutralize the biggest threat but against most other situation a combination of single shots seem to work fine. Admitedly I play on normal but to me that should be the most balanced gameplay.

Thus far I only went out all grenadier style when on a terror mission where three heavy drones and tons of red Androns attacked one flank in droves. That were three soldiers who threw about four grenades each to kill the tanks and a couple of the Androns which came too close (they were also mainly a breach team aka had no weapons for mid range and couldn't stay out of cover to shoot at their targets with all the heavy weapons and snipers being nearly cut off from them).

I only earned 150k for that mission (compared to ~250 for a carrier or a cruiser) but given the threat level I found it worthwhile. I essentially sacrificed money to ensure my soldiers could survive the onslaught.

@tacticaldragon,

I'm sure everybody is already aware of your mod, so feel free to stop adverising it in every post you make. No hard feelings, but you spam the same thing in every thread.

@tacticaldragon,

I'm sure everybody is already aware of your mod, so feel free to stop adverising it in every post you make. No hard feelings, but you spam the same thing in every thread.

Apologies if I'm aware of that and I feel ashamed. What happens is that I read each and every one of the comments from the community and translated in the mod, the expansion is not product from my team, is the product of the contribution of analysis of all community members.

Apologize and I'm keep the mod ads to the proper section.

Thanks Skitso

What about a simple rl solution? Imho in rl the soliders dont throw greandes at everythign simply because they are to hvy to carry more then 2-3 and prolly to expensive compared to bullets.+ i think a grnade is pretty short range compared to gun fire.

Edited April 21, 2014 by FireStorm1010