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Sigh... no, we don't, and you know we don't, so stop being disingenuous. We use dogs to sniff for bombs. We use them as sentries. We even use them to intimidate and guard prisoners. We don't train dogs to take part in actual combat.

Perhaps not open battlefield combat, but for subduing fleeing or armed suspects, etc... I would definitely call those "combat situations". If a police dog takes down a suspect with a gun, you would say that the dog has not been in a "combat situation"?

By your own logic they should exclusively use robots, because they can do everything better. Also using your logic, Reapers can be remotely controlled by more intelligent creatures using psionics. Their technology is so good, if they want to find some way to make Reapers act tactically, they can. You're defeating your own argument. The only reason you think your solution is the only viable one is that you're not really thinking about it.

They do use robots though. Androns, and they are the elite of the alien's soldiers.

However there are certain things they cannot do, and they are not suitable for all combat situations.

I agree with you, the aliens have good enough technology to uplift the reapers into sentience. But they haven't for some reason. We must put on our suspension of disbelief goggles. Perhaps they realize that uncontrollable reproductive cycles make them not viable for this purpose.

However, suggestion that a reaper is as smart as a human, or even a seb stretches suspension of disbelief. They would make such better soldiers, that sebs and caesans would be redundant. Androns serve their purpose, but they are robots. They cannot think and act independently like sebs, caesans, and other biologicals can. Name one thing that a seb/caesan could do that an intelligent reaper couldn't? And don't say things like operate technology, because interfaces can be designed around their physiology.

Please don't discourage him, Crusherven. He is providing a lot of amusement at the moment.

I fail to see what is so amusing.

The idea that a reaper is an intelligent creature is ludicrous. It would violate the in-game lore, and is a huge logic gap.

Science fiction is cool because anything can happen so long as it can be explained logically. There is no logical reason that the aliens would NOT use reapers as soldiers if they were just as intelligent as other biological sentients. Therefore reapers are not intelligent. What is so hard to understand?

To paraphrase the argument:

Me: Reapers should not be using advanced tactics, they are nothing more than weaponized animals.

Crusherven: Animals can be trained to act intelligently.

Me: But they cannot be trained to think intelligently, and independently.

Crusherven: Well, then who says they are animals, they could be just as smart as humans and caesans etc...?

Me: Uhh, simple logic. If they were as smart as sebs/caesans they would be the line troops. Their physical prowess far outstrips anything the sebs and caesans have, and any physiological difficulties can be explained away by the setting.

Crusherven: You're just not really thinking about it.

Me: Because it doesn't make sense.

Edited by legit1337
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However, suggestion that a reaper is as smart as a human, or even a seb stretches suspension of disbelief.

Who said that they were as smart as a human/Sebbilian? As in outright stated, no possible-through-inference-of-words.

Science fiction is cool because anything can happen so long as it can be explained logically. There is no logical reason that the aliens would NOT use reapers as soldiers if they were just as intelligent as other biological sentients. Therefore reapers are not intelligent. What is so hard to understand?

Considering how quickly a Reaper population may exponentially expand, I'm probably going to with the explanation that it's simply not economically feasible to uplift every single Reaper. Unless they did it before the invasion (which means that Chris would have to change the backstory to have this happen) I'd think they'd rather focus on getting that giant armada actually doing something rather than sitting up in orbit twiddling their thumbs (if they had any). Besides, having an expensive uber-trooper kinda defeats the purpose of effective disposable cannon fodder...might as well just send in hordes of Androns.

Edited by Commissar Pancakes
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Who said that they were as smart as a human/Sebbilian? As in outright stated, no possible-through-inference-of-words.

Nobody, although the use of military tactics and target prioritization talked about earlier imply a near human intelligence.

Considering how quickly a Reaper population may exponentially expand, I'm probably going to with the explanation that it's simply not economically feasible to uplift every single Reaper. Unless they did it before the invasion (which means that Chris would have to change the backstory to have this happen) I'd think they'd rather focus on getting that giant armada actually doing something rather than sitting up in orbit twiddling their thumbs (if they had any). Besides, having an expensive uber-trooper kinda defeats the purpose of effective disposable cannon fodder...might as well just send in hordes of Androns.

For an alien society that has the resources to mount an invasion of a planet light years away, this seems unlikely. Why waste resources on inferior soldiery such as sebs/caesans? Sure, you may need numbers to have a viable occupation force but the reaper's reproductive cycle ought to take care of that problem quite nicely.

Edited by legit1337
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For an alien society that has the resources to mount an invasion of a planet light years away, this seems unlikely. Why waste resources on inferior soldiery such as sebs/caesans? Sure, you may need numbers to have a viable occupation force but the reaper's reproductive cycle ought to take care of that problem quite nicely.

From the way I see it, Reapers have the intelligence levels of apex predators, such as lions or wolves. Not exactly a great occupation force for guarding checkpoints or vital installations. And though they are intelligent enough that they know how to ambush their prey, I don't really see them learning how to avoid the black-exploding-stick thingies that us humans tend to carry without dying.

And besides, can you imagine the utter logistical nightmare on training, equipping, and recording every single Reaper in the field? Every single deployment would mean countless of casualties just because they are assaulting a prepared position with firmly entrenched solders, not to mention the untold thousands of newborn Reapers that will inevitably spawn from when they ravage the population centers.

Even then, they aren't that great at extended combat, given how horridly fragile they actually are. It only takes a few shots from an assault rifle to take one down, so if they aren't deployed en-mass, they're going to be incapable of viably taking strategic positions. Even if they do claim it, how do you get them to stay there? Mind-controlling Psions? The humans will probably quickly learn who the leaders are and assign them to be priority targets.

Edited by Commissar Pancakes
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The idea that a reaper is an intelligent creature is ludicrous. It would violate the in-game lore, and is a huge logic gap.

Science fiction is cool because anything can happen so long as it can be explained logically. There is no logical reason that the aliens would NOT use reapers as soldiers if they were just as intelligent as other biological sentients. Therefore reapers are not intelligent. What is so hard to understand?

It can also be claimed that the normal forces are not intelligent either, given what we find out in the 'Alien Interrogation' research. It is obvious that the leaders want to be in complete control of their armed soldiers.

The Reaper is a biological WMD that has to work on an autonomous basis as it otherwise need to carry a massive sackful of radio controls to hand out to each new Reaper. On that basis, they could be considered to be 'more intelligent' than the alien foot soldiers. They could equip Reapers with weapons, but that would be like adding iron bombs to a thermonuclear device, just in case you would want to use it as a conventional weapon. Possible, but a waste of time, resources and money.

What concerns me is not whether or not the reapers have human level-intelligence, but why are they in play? They are the ultimate weapon, after all. One or two dropped in remote areas would create an army that would lead to the extinction of humanity.

My thoughts would be that the Reapers are deployed as terror weapons so that the authorities know what the ultimate weapon is. It is as much directed against them as to the general population "Do you want to be wiped out by this?" kind of threat.

From the way I see it, Reapers have the intelligence levels of apex predators, such as lions or wolves.

Some lions have shown themselves to be very intelligent, especially the ones that learned to hunt humans. They were the basis of the film, "The Ghost and the Darkness."

Edited by Skybirduk
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As far as I know most hunting predators have the ability to prioritise targets.

They rarely hunt anything that can harm them unless they have an advantage and often isolate and pick off the wounded.

They don't tend to charge straight at anything that moves.

Use of cover and ambush techniques is not really a human military specific action either so I see no reason why reapers wouldn't be able to do this.

My cat can sneak around the garden quite well although he is old and has arthritis.

My personal feeling would be that it should be possible with enough technology to train a creature, even one with a basic level of intelligence, to recognise certain objects.

We lowly humans can do it by judicious application of electric currents, or even just ringing a bell to reinforce a desired response.

I imagine if a race could manipulate genetic code or work on a cellular level they may be able to isolate the reactions they want and turn these reactions into a kind of genetic memory or instinct to be passed down to any offspring they may create.

It may take some training time, unless this can also be made quicker with high enough technology devoted to it.

Show images of a machine gun soldier and cause a fear reaction, show a rifle armed soldier and create hunger etc.

Record changes in brain cells and create a cell to insert this into genetic code in future generations.

Suddenly you have a cunning animal that thinks of vulnerable troops as food/hosts and stronger enemies as threats to be avoided or attacked only when the situation is in their favour.

They don't need to be able to fly a starship to do this, just some base instincts.

Enough technobabble can resolve most problems in science fiction.

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I imagine if a race could manipulate genetic code or work on a cellular level they may be able to isolate the reactions they want and turn these reactions into a kind of genetic memory or instinct to be passed down to any offspring they may create.

There may even be two kinds of Reapers. You could have terror mission reapers, with nothing in the way of experience, and their job is to run around and scare people.

Then you have the Doomsday Reaper. It is well trained and it's ancestors will have been involved in previous planet-wide exterminations

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so this debate on reapers kinda has me thinking of vampire earth. anyways the books had a creature call reapers the short of it was they where sub-human intelligent, but could be mind controlled at range for any fine tuned action there master desired. when left on there own they would still stalk prey, however with a far hunger oriented focus. no charging machine gun nests when theirs a big juicy cow that cant fight back. not that any of that applies to this game just words for the sake of words

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From the way I see it, Reapers have the intelligence levels of apex predators, such as lions or wolves. Not exactly a great occupation force for guarding checkpoints or vital installations. And though they are intelligent enough that they know how to ambush their prey, I don't really see them learning how to avoid the black-exploding-stick thingies that us humans tend to carry without dying.

Which was exactly my point and what I have been trying to say from the beginning.

If they were intelligent enough for such things there would be no need for caesans/sebs.

As far as I know most hunting predators have the ability to prioritise targets.

So what you are saying is that a wolf has the mental capacity to choose between a guy with a pistol, and a guy with a machinegun as a target because he knows the guy with the machinegun could kill more wolves?

It can also be claimed that the normal forces are not intelligent either, given what we find out in the 'Alien Interrogation' research. It is obvious that the leaders want to be in complete control of their armed soldiers.

There is a difference between a genetically wired deference to authority, and not being intelligent.

What concerns me is not whether or not the reapers have human level-intelligence...

But this is what we have been discussing.

When I said that reapers should not be intelligent enough to use military tactics (such as flanking, coordinated attacks, feints etc... NOT ambushing, as that is instinctual to apex predators and should be fair game), people told me I was wrong. The reasons cited were that "animals can be trained to do such things" and that "who knows, reapers could be just as intelligent as caesans/sebs", which is utter bollocks and I've spent most of the last two weeks trying to explain why.

Edited by legit1337
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When I said that reapers should not be intelligent enough to use military tactics (such as flanking, coordinated attacks, feints etc... NOT ambushing, as that is instinctual to apex predators and should be fair game), people told me I was wrong.

What you are calling military tactics are also the tactics used by pack hunters, such as lions, hyenas and wolves. If they can do it, Reapers should be able to as well. Seeing as even crocodiles can be trained, if Reapers can't be taught, they would have to be on a lower level than that.

It's not only intelligence which is the issue, it's the ability to be trained which some animals do better than other. That's why some dogs fit into some areas of work. Raw intelligence itself is not the only factor, there is experience and knowledge as well. Given the way that these creatures reproduce, there would be a high possibility of them having a genetic memory.

As the reapers are a perfect army in the fact that they make themselves bigger as the enemy shrink in size, why wouldn't their controllers 'uplift' them to a greater intelligence?

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What you are calling military tactics are also the tactics used by pack hunters, such as lions, hyenas and wolves. If they can do it, Reapers should be able to as well. Seeing as even crocodiles can be trained, if Reapers can't be taught, they would have to be on a lower level than that.

It's not only intelligence which is the issue, it's the ability to be trained which some animals do better than other. That's why some dogs fit into some areas of work. Raw intelligence itself is not the only factor, there is experience and knowledge as well. Given the way that these creatures reproduce, there would be a high possibility of them having a genetic memory.

As the reapers are a perfect army in the fact that they make themselves bigger as the enemy shrink in size, why wouldn't their controllers 'uplift' them to a greater intelligence?

When do lions and hyenas use flanking (not including "mobbing up" on prey) when confronted with resistance? When do they initiate feint attacks to draw enemy attention away from an area and then attack there? When do they show coordinated movements outside of the normal "pack hunter" routine? When have you ever seen a wolf dive behind some rocks when getting shot at? (If it even realizes it is getting hurt it would probably just run away in a straight line).

You do not because it never happens. You are attributing these animals with intelligence and abilities they do not have.

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When have you ever seen a wolf dive behind some rocks when getting shot at?

I didn't know that creatures that wolves normally hunt carry firearms. I think that we had better call National Georgraphic and have this filmed.

When do they initiate feint attacks to draw enemy attention away from an area and then attack there? When do they show coordinated movements outside of the normal "pack hunter" routine?

You mean like when jackals work in a group with some using fake attacks to lure a mother rhinoceros away from her baby while other run in and make attacks at the baby?

You mean like when wolves attack a herd of Bison, pretending to go after the young, but actually tricking the herd into sacrificing an older male for an easy kill?

You mean like when lions use fake attacks to lure an elephant away from the herd so that they can hunt it?

Maybe you should tell them they can't do it, after all, they must be wrong...

Anyway, what's next? Are you going to draw a clearly arbitrary for your benefit between this tactical behaviour and more intelligent tactical behaviour?

Edited by Skybirduk
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So what you are saying is that a wolf has the mental capacity to choose between a guy with a pistol, and a guy with a machinegun as a target because he knows the guy with the machinegun could kill more wolves?

No that was your definition, not mine.

I also never mentioned wolves specifically.

I said that hunting animals could select targets based on their own set of instincts.

The example I used was selecting a wounded animal as a target rather than a healthy one.

If you had read the post you would see that I then went on to suggest that this natural behaviour could be linked to an unnatural set of parameters using alien technology.

In game lore only has to follow the natural evolution of Earth to a certain extent.

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When have you ever seen a wolf dive behind some rocks when getting shot at?

Have you never hunted? If you shoot at an animal, it's going to run and hide. Certainly I've seen a coyote react to a near miss, and this was from several hundred yards.

Edited by crusherven
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Crusherven, The original text to which the quote refers to involves wolves hunting. Have you ever seen the natural prey of wolves with rifles?

I doubt he actually meant that--but even if he did, one method for hunting wolves is using a game call to get the wolf to think you're a dying animal. When they get close, you take the shot--but if you miss, they'll disappear in a hurry. So from the wolf's perspective, I guess the answer is "yes."

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Feel free to continue the discussion, but please leave the personal insults out of it.

I have been watching my Ps and Qs don't worry.

No that was your definition, not mine.

I also never mentioned wolves specifically.

I said that hunting animals could select targets based on their own set of instincts.

The example I used was selecting a wounded animal as a target rather than a healthy one.

If you had read the post you would see that I then went on to suggest that this natural behaviour could be linked to an unnatural set of parameters using alien technology.

In game lore only has to follow the natural evolution of Earth to a certain extent.

We were specifically talking about prioritization in a military capacity.

Linking instinctual parameters to military ones seems like an awful lot of work when simply elevating their intelligence would be easier.

I didn't know that creatures that wolves normally hunt carry firearms. I think that we had better call National Georgraphic and have this filmed.

Stop being facetious please. You know what I meant, and one of my buddies hunts wolves and moose in Alaska.

You mean like when jackals work in a group with some using fake attacks to lure a mother rhinoceros away from her baby while other run in and make attacks at the baby?

You mean like when wolves attack a herd of Bison, pretending to go after the young, but actually tricking the herd into sacrificing an older male for an easy kill?

You mean like when lions use fake attacks to lure an elephant away from the herd so that they can hunt it?

Sources please. I have never heard of this kind of behavior, and the woman who raised me was a zoologist. Granted, her specialization was in chimpanzees... That by no means makes me an expert, but in volunteering at the local zoo every summer in my teenage years I've picked up a few things.

Anyway, what's next? Are you going to draw a clearly arbitrary for your benefit between this tactical behaviour and more intelligent tactical behaviour?

When you can prove that the behavior in question stems from intelligence rather than instinct.

A pack of wolves hunts together as a team to take down prey. Not because they are smart enough to say "Hey, if we work together we increase our chances of success. Let's try it out guys!", but because they are spurred on by natural instinct to do what feels right.

Have you never hunted? If you shoot at an animal, it's going to run and hide. Certainly I've seen a coyote react to a near miss, and this was from several hundred yards.

Yes it will run away in a straight line, exposing itself to getting shot and hide. Because it understands it is getting hurt, that is all. It would have the same reaction to anything that could hurt it.

It doesn't understand "taking cover" as soon as possible to minimize exposure to enemy gunfire, because it doesn't understand guns or projectile weapons. It doesn't zig-zag when trying to run away to cause the shooters to miss because it doesn't understand WHAT is hurting it, only that it is being hurt. It doesn't have the intelligence to comprehend those kind of tactics.

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