Shields and their effect on combat

I'm really not sure that combat shields are appropriate from a balance and a realism point of view. However, besides that, I also feel they lack any sort of explanation as to how exactly they work. I'll get to that at the end.

With pistols getting a massive reaction fire bonus (meaning even less death) and their damage being sufficient to kill most aliens in two shots, there's no reason not to equip at least half the squad with shields. Against plasma rifles.

Then, if a pistol is not sufficient, you can switch to grenades or C4 to mop up any androns or out of reach aliens.

Usually, most aliens will fight you 1vXenonauts, occasionally with multiple aliens. However, in almost every case the shield is capable of blocking lethal shots, meaning less dead Xenonauts. By the time it's your turn, you'll always have enough TU to re-equip your shield (because you brought two), and enough Xenonauts to blast the alien to bits or at least suppress them (except vs Androns, who require different tactics).

The consequence is that playing with shields, you'll see maybe 1 dead Xenonaut every 10 or 20 missions on Veteran. In comparison, I usually saw 1 dead Xenonaut every other mission without shields. Naturally, my snipers don't have shields, but they are usually not in the line of fire and can mostly hide behind my shield-bearers (though at least the shield doesn't block 100% beyond the user) or just very far away.

Now, with regards to tooltips: It was my impression, though many hours of playing, that if you face an alien with your shield, it will always block every shot (nvm the many shots that miss or miss without notification) until it is broken. This was proven wrong to me just recently when one of my units had a perfectly functioning shield, but got shot in the face. I'm okay with that. But I certainly wasn't expecting it, given that hundreds of other shots never ignored my shields from the front. So a tooltip explaining the mechanics of shields would be nice, particularly for newer players. If I have somehow missed this tooltip, I apologize.

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree. I've always been uneasy about combat shields, partly because the idea of alien weapons being outright stopped by them (when even the best armour in the game can't do this) seems silly and partly because the few times I've used them they've seemed excessively effective.

But that said, it doesn't bother me too much. I like that the option is there, and it's easy enough just not to use them.

I think I also just discovered a possible reason for why shields are particularly overpowered.

If you take a machinegunner (who shoots 10 shots) and put him next to a guy with a shield (95% hit chance) and you unload a burst on him, he takes 0 damage. The shield is destroyed (usually), but every shot after the shield is destroyed is an automatic miss. Similar effects are seen when obliterating obstacles.

I suspect this also counts for aliens, who are fond of bursting. Whether it explains the snap/normal shots missing, I don't know.

In my hours of playing, maybe 40 missions total, I've had four or five soldiers kneeling behind shields, facing straight at the alien, be gunned down anyhow. Granted, normally the shield blocks/absorbs the incoming damage, but that's proven not to be foolproof in my experience

In my hours of playing, maybe 40 missions total, I've had four or five soldiers kneeling behind shields, facing straight at the alien, be gunned down anyhow. Granted, normally the shield blocks/absorbs the incoming damage, but that's proven not to be foolproof in my experience

This can easily be seen when assaulting an alien craft. I generally block the entrance with shields, with marksmen and heavy weapons right behind them. Numerous times, I've seen return fire bypass the shields and kill my hunkering solders.

i hate shields, by this i mean i think they suck. the places where they are useful in breaching small rooms you can do with shotguns and smoke easier and cheaper in my mind, but more the one way to skin a cat is nice. for the longer range work via say terror missions your neutering your fire power SO much. for what amounts to mobile cover( something smoke does cheaper). by using pistols as your main weapon your forced to rely on short range combat, in which case i think the shotgun is just better.

** i am playing the experimental build which put a range Nerf on pistols and reduced reaction mod of shotguns and pistols down to 1.5 instead of 2 so that might explain varied mileage some what **

your machine gun test sounds like it might be worth checking on the debugger and by that i mean some one who knows what there trying to read. i set up test and face to face the shield will let a non com casein(god am i bad at alien race names) take a face to face 10 round burst but shoot him from the back and its auto death. did the same test useing friendlys but used the editor to give a non com a shield just in case it was because i was targeting the ground. i would copy/paste the whole log but its a mile long and the test is easy to set up

Shield is too strong at current form of the game because AI refuses to put their 100% block chance into account and do not walk few step around to circumvent it. Also, the fact that shield absorbs all damage despite having only ~1 HP compounds the problem as well (I seriously think slashing shields HP is good idea to account for this feature).

AI can aim and shoot at the soldiers crouching behind the shields, but it does not change the fact that exposed shield-bearing soldiers can frequently survive facing an alien with an full AP unscratched.

I am also concerned about lack of lethality in game because I liked old XCOM's formula of minimum 1 causality per mission (unless you happened to be skilled and notably lucky), but that goes into personal preference category and is whole different topic.

Just to note, Chris has been talking on one of the balance threads about removing the reaction fire bonus from pistols when the pistoleer is carrying a shield.

This can easily be seen when assaulting an alien craft. I generally block the entrance with shields, with marksmen and heavy weapons right behind them. Numerous times, I've seen return fire bypass the shields and kill my hunkering solders.

Still, if there's a 20% chance of bypassing shields, that's still 80% fewer deaths.

Isn't it a 100% chance to block from the front 45 degrees at the moment? If shield guys are getting shots bypassed, then the shots are coming from an angle where they're not certain to absorb hits.

Maybe it's time for shields to not fit in backpacks. You can still get more shields than you're intended if you're really dedicated, but a) it's a pain in the bum to set up and b) it's a pain in the bum to make use of.

In my view, shields are there in place of the OG X-Com rookies you'd lose by scouting, so that you don't have to use a vehicle (with its +2 vision) to scout safely. I don't want to lose the 100% block from the front, though, as it was really lame to lose a scout because you failed the dice roll.

Back before the Great Alien Accuracy Nerf, shields only blocked 80% of the time to the front. At that time, if you carried a shield it wasn't a case of if your number would be up in a mission, only a question of when. That wasn't 80% fewer deaths, that was 20% more. To see what I mean, boost alien accuracy up a bit. There's a global modifier you can use.

I don't find shields over-powered in the slightest. I never feel the need to have more than 1 with me per mission and it has its very specific uses (generally walking first through a door). It useful having two shields in base missions and having one go off in each direction, if only to try and draw alien reaction fire. However, I don't think my shield guys have ever gone a mission where the shield hasn't been destroyed and they haven't taken at-least 20% damage and been near death.

Maybe it's time for shields to not fit in backpacks. You can still get more shields than you're intended if you're really dedicated' date=' but a) it's a pain in the bum to set up and b) it's a pain in the bum to make use of.[/quote']

I'd like to see this - carrying more than one shield is quite silly.

Alternatively, their weight could go back up. I can't remember why exactly the weight was reduced (possibly related to the weight of shield+armour being excessive?) but since the effect of being overburdened has been reduced through the % TU system, giving them a hefty weight again wouldn't be overly problematic I don't think.

Yeah i use shields extensively as my open field scouts, always take 2 per dropship and they are not OP at all. Hell i'd like to see 2 versions of the shields with a lighter one being the standard and a special heavy one for when you know your facing powerful aliens in tight quarters.

The best thing ever was having my shield guy open a door to see 3 androns and a disk just chilling in front of the alien ship, he survived thanks to a heavy throwing some smoke on him after he was at 7/82hps after the round of rapid fire weapons. Its for situations like this that the shield exists, unless you make humans and aliens share the exact same sight range you need mobile cover or your just asking to lose soldiers.

You can cheese with everything so don't be surprised that something is OP if your taking the time to exploit it.

Shields went down in weight because you could have a shield, a pistol aaaand.... not even armour. That was it. Since then their weight has yo-yo'd like a body-concious method actor. In fact, the last time their weight was altered was to increase it.

It's a fair point, shields are a bit OP if abused. Ideally we want a way to nerf them without ruining their utility for people who don't abuse them and use them situationally. Here's my thoughts:

1) It's an excellent idea to make shields too big to fit in the backpack. Either they go in the soldier's hand, or they go on the ground. Therefore a soldier can only take one to battle...or two if they want to dual-wield shields for some reason.

2) The reaction fire modifier for a soldier with a combat shield is going to be set to the lower value of the two weapons, so pistols won't get their bonus if you're also using a shield.

3) The overdamage effect needs to be added - so any excess damage not stopped by the shield is applied to the soldier. Also the bugs with burst fire need to be fixed if they do indeed exist.

4) We'll also add better signalling for what happens in-battle when a shot hits the shield. It needs to display white damage numbers to show the damage absorbed, and not show the bullet hitting the ground below the unit's feet.

The best thing ever was having my shield guy open a door to see 3 androns and a disk just chilling in front of the alien ship, he survived thanks to a heavy throwing some smoke on him after he was at 7/82hps after the round of rapid fire weapons.

...why didn't you close the door...?

...why didn't you close the door...?

Because that would be unbelievably rude? Geez.

...why didn't you close the door...?

I couldn't for some reason i thought it was because he was standing in the doorway but he had 6 TU and i was frantically trying to close the door but it didn't close so he instead flipped around was his TU. He was 1 tile in front of the door to not actually in the doorway but i figured he needed to be out of the doors arc to close it?

I think that shields is a nice and cool addition of the game, but as one of the players says, the lethality on this hage is near inexistent. Inaccurated aliens, no real threat of alien explosives, mid and later game armor takes tons of damage, medkits easy cure a lot.

In other hand carry pistols to combat is lowering fire capability, but they can throw granades in quick slot.

Personally I think that a simple solution is the best solution, just shield wearing units can throw granades easy, they become a piece focused on defense, and then you will pay that cost. To use a granade they need to put in hand and use it.

Chris, soldier wearing 2 shields is silly hahhaha

EDIT/ Or rise %TU cost for quick granade slot for shields.

Maybe it's time for shields to not fit in backpacks. You can still get more shields than you're intended if you're really dedicated' date=' but a) it's a pain in the bum to set up and b) it's a pain in the bum to make use of.

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I think it'd be nice if you could load gear onto the Charlie/Shrike/Valkyrie like in X-COM & in the charlie and shrike there'd be like a wall mount of just a pile of gear you could go through to say have spare shields spare ammo spare weapons & whatever else you load, and with the Valkyrie it'd drop like a box or a drop pod with whatever else you have and just make another pile.

It seems like if you make shields unable to be carried by backpack and go with the equipment storage it would fix a part of shields being OP.

That is a lot of coding to fix the problem though.

I don't find shields over-powered in the slightest. I never feel the need to have more than 1 with me per mission and it has its very specific uses (generally walking first through a door). It useful having two shields in base missions and having one go off in each direction, if only to try and draw alien reaction fire. However, I don't think my shield guys have ever gone a mission where the shield hasn't been destroyed and they haven't taken at-least 20% damage and been near death.

Congratulations, you have just suffered 2 less deaths per mission that by all accounts you should have suffered. This is the exact type of OP I was referring to. (Just in case I am coming across as rude: That's not my intent. I am just of the opinion that X-Com games requires deaths, especially at the veteran and insane level, and shields eliminate this risk almost entirely).

All my shield guys go on missions and usually return unharmed. Sometimes 1 shield less, and it would definitely make shields less OP if they couldn't have one or two backup shields in their backpack, but they are most definitely unharmed and not dead, despite soaking up to 160 damage (which would kill three Xenonauts), and even more shots (due to what appears to be a bug).

Isn't it a 100% chance to block from the front 45 degrees at the moment? If shield guys are getting shots bypassed' date=' then the shots are coming from an angle where they're not certain to absorb hits. [/quote']

Yes, I thought so too. I'll have to test out something with a corner and terrain prop, because I had a Xenonaut facing isometric east (diagonal) from a rocky outcropping, with a shield facing towards an alien that shot him twice and bypassed a fully functional shield.

Well, perhaps working excess damage and reduced shield HP - because shield HP greater over health of single soldier is ridiculous, more especially when it comes to upgraded assault shields - might be good enough starting point before trying out other changes.

Better yet, AI that accounts for the shield angles.