Psi Powers, Berserking - any strategy to use?

I've been playing the V21 stable candidate, and had a lot of incidents of soldiers going beserk and shooting other soldiers - presumably through psi powers, as this happens during alien base mssions where no freindly deaths have occurred and lots of aliens have died, so not an ordinary morale issue.

As far as I can see, there is basically no strategy to deal with this. Have I missed something?

Personally I find this very annoying. I can understand that things should be hard - but in most cases there is something you can do to respond to difficult problems. Battlefield tactics, prioritising the rght research, choosing appropriate weapons, etc. But for psi attacks, this is all irrelevant - they just happen regardless of your actions. Problems that have no possible counter-measure (even if it's challenging to implement) really destroy my enjoyment of the game.

From a gameplay point of view, if we are going to have random deaths that we cannot do anything about, why don't we just have soldiers randomly exploding from time to time? It would be more entertaining and would have the same effect on gameplay as the beserking incidents from psi attacks currently do.

Troopers with higher bravery are less likely to be affected by psionic attacks from the aliens.

There are two aliens that can induce a beserk state psionically, and they belong to one race, and they only ever appear as one of their type in any mission which features their race. That's it. So in a base mission, there's exactly one alien which can induce beserking, provided you hit a base of the correct race. You say "lots of beserking" in alien base missions. Which race do you face?

I did notice that in the last build a ceasan base appeared right near my own base in the first 4 days.

When I assaulted it I got hit by berserk every turn right from the start so it did feel like a lot.

I think I only lost one soldier to it and otherwise it had no noticeable effect so it was more confusing than dangerous.

Max, I am getting the frequent beserking with Caesans. I seemed to get two caesan bases in a row, which made it very noticeable. The beserking seems to be something new in V21, compared with V20 Stable, In v20, when there was a Praetor, I would get the "so-and-so is unnerved", and they would lose movement points. But I don't recall having soldiers berserk unless there had been deaths of either soldiers or local forces/civilians. When attacking Caesan bases now though, I get frequent beserking withoout any injuries or deaths.

That'd be it then. Only Caesan officers and leaders have the beserk power. Most obvious solution is to ensure that it's line-of-sight. Something to mention in the balance, methinks, so I'll go do that now.

EDIT: I have a sneaking suspicion that psychic powers can be currently used from squad sight, not just the users line-of-sight, so I've asked for that to be scaled back.

Max, would you be able to elaborate on what you mean by "Most obvious solution is to ensure that it's line-of-sight"? Not sure what you mean here - is this about a tactic I could use, or a possible change in the game to how this attack works? The attacks I have been getting have occurred from the other side of a closed door - although I couldn't swear that they didn't happen after opening and closing the door and allowing the alien to see my soldiers.

EDIT: I have a sneaking suspicion that psychic powers can be currently used from squad sight, not just the users line-of-sight, so I've asked for that to be scaled back.

I've been playing with a mod that grants all Caesans psionic attacks. I've had many turns when I've been targeted by psionic attacks even in the absence of having been spotted by alien units, so it seems like psionics can be used at-will. (Could be a bug, though?)

dmholt, let me expand on "most obvious solution is to ensure that it's line-of-sight".

"The most obvious solution to making psychic attacks less unfun is to ensure that psychic attacks are line-of-sight attacks so you can kill the psychic."

The suggestion of line of sight only certainly seems like a good idea to me. However I guess there's no guarantee it will change, so I'm curious as to how others have been handling the psi attacks. I was playing the experimental build before the stable candidate for V21, so I don't know when the new behavious started, but I assume by now a few people must have come across this. I can't really see what I can do expcept for ruthlessly pruning my soldiers for high bravery from day 1, or just accepting that by the time the big ships come I'm going to lose 2 or 3 soldiers on any Caesan mission. Am I just unlucky?

dmholt, let me expand on "most obvious solution is to ensure that it's line-of-sight".

"The most obvious solution to making psychic attacks less unfun is to ensure that psychic attacks are line-of-sight attacks so you can kill the psychic."

The problem with LoS psionics is that, with the exception of mind control, their impact is fairly small. I'd be far more concerned about having my soldiers shot at than (possibly) panicked and it would be relief whenever the AI did not shoot at me in preference of a psionic attack.

That would be because their power is currently balanced with their ability to be used from outside of line of sight.

To weaken them in one way opens the door to strengthen them in another.

kabill, you may be a lot better at this game than me, but I don't make an exception for mind control, and the impact of beserking for me has been major. I have been trying a Caesan ground mission, and each time so far I have lost 2 soldiers fairly early on by one being mind controlled and shooting a buddy. I can't imagine how many soldiers I'd have left by the time I reached the UFO - not many I think. Also, in base missions where I often end up with soldiers close togther, I have lost a couple of soldiers over 2 to 3 turns just from beserking. So for me there is no way I would say the impact is small.

I would much rather be shot at - that can often be survived. And of course, and this is the key point to me, there are tactics you can apply that will reduce your chance of getting shot, like using cover etc., which to me is the whole point of the game. With psi attacks I have come up against an attack that I cannot do anything about and that is decimating my squad to the point where I would have to undertake the final mission with mostly rookies. This is basically a game killer for me.

That would be because their power is currently balanced with their ability to be used from outside of line of sight.

To weaken them in one way opens the door to strengthen them in another.

I agree, yes (indeed, I almost wrote this). But I'm not sure there's a lot you could do to make the existing powers better while the alternative (adding new abilities) would likely take resources which are unavailable at the moment.

kabill, you may be a lot better at this game than me, but I don't make an exception for mind control, and the impact of beserking for me has been major. I have been trying a Caesan ground mission, and each time so far I have lost 2 soldiers fairly early on by one being mind controlled and shooting a buddy. I can't imagine how many soldiers I'd have left by the time I reached the UFO - not many I think. Also, in base missions where I often end up with soldiers close togther, I have lost a couple of soldiers over 2 to 3 turns just from beserking. So for me there is no way I would say the impact is small.

Sorry, yes, they can have a significant impact. My putting aside of mind control was simply because 1) its fairly rare and 2) I appreciate that it's very powerful (c.f. XCOM 1994). Berserk is troublesome if your soldiers are grouped together tightly (although I've found it fairly unreliable and sometimes doesn't seem to do anything. Possibly related to weapon type, since it seems to call snap-shots and LMGs can't take snap-shots). Fear is problematic if you're already suffering from morale issues (not so much if you're not, though).

But if you had LoS psionics, fear would be worthless while berserk and mind control would pretty much boil down to the AI trading its own shots for some shots which might be closer-range or circumvent cover (but also might not). It would render both abilities marginal.

All this said, I'd have no problem with psionics moving to a squad-sight model rather than simply being able to target anyone at any time. That would allow psionics to function in a support roll like they do at the moment, and provide an opportunity to deal with them tactically, by staying out of sight or only exposing soldiers you can afford to lose/who have a high Bravery score. But LoS only would kill them, I think, since they wouldn't really offer much if any advantage over just shooting.

Just wanted to point out your second quote is incorrect as it has my name but it wasn't my post.

Sorry, yes, copy-paste error. Edited now, thanks.

Well I guess that's it for me with Xenonauts. Clearly I am in a minority with having such major problems with the psi attacks, but assuming the psi attacks will not get weaker over time I can't really see it being possible (for me) to finish if I lose at least few soldiers with every Caesan mission I have to do. I could ignore the Caesan ground missions, but I'd still have to deal with the bases and of course the final mission. I did consider going back to the beginning and making a point of building a high bravery squad, until I noticed that the most recent soldier to come under alien control was one of my "bravest" at 65.

I'll probably check this thread a few times to see if anyone has suggestions for tactics to counter psi attacks, so feel free to make any suggestions - if there's anything that looks feasible I might have another try.

At this time, there is only one "tactic" I can think of to counter psi attacks. Do not let your units "reserve" time units for a snap shot. But this opens up it's own host of problems naturally. So, if you rely on reaction-fire during the Caesan turn, you may want to have extra smoke grenades, and use those to protect your troops during a Caesan turn while having no TUs available to be used for reaction fire.

Thankfully, you won't need to use these tactics against Androns nor Sebillians since neither have psionic troops.

Ziggarius, thanks for the suggestion: leaving units with no TUs does work to counter beserking, but it doesn't help with the issue of alien control which is what really caused me the most grief. Once a soldier is controlled by aliens, they get to make a full movement at the start of your turn, and generally manage to kill another soldier as well as being lost to you themselves. By the the second time this happens in a mission before I even get to the UFO, I have lost all hope of completing the mission.

Ziggarius, thanks for the suggestion: leaving units with no TUs does work to counter beserking, but it doesn't help with the issue of alien control which is what really caused me the most grief. Once a soldier is controlled by aliens, they get to make a full movement at the start of your turn, and generally manage to kill another soldier as well as being lost to you themselves. By the the second time this happens in a mission before I even get to the UFO, I have lost all hope of completing the mission.

this may not be ideal for you, but if pisonics alone are killing the game for you. i would suggest editing the min/max bravery recruitment stats for all your soldiers to 100. this wont remove the ability's but will effectively reduce frequency, so when it does happen it might still kick your teeth in but i will be less likely to ruin the playability of the rest of the game for you. personalty i use a base line of 70 and till get berserk/panic happen but not all the time, but no mind control as of yet i just might not be to that point yet( just downed my first carrier as we speak. i do this largely because there is no real way to level bravery unlike all the other stats

my thoughts on pisonics them self i dont mind them being squad sight but i would like to see them have a reduced effective range. by that i mean my sniper can shoot some thing like 30 squares, but push it past that even with a clear line of sight damage starts to drop off. how codeable that is i have not the slightest but even something as simple as a bravery buff if your targets further away then 60 tiles would be nice.

quiescat, that's a helpful suggestion. I've also seen somewhere a discussion about editing a file to increase the TU cost of psi attacks to make them unlikely or impossible. Strangely enough, I feel reluctant to change game configuration files, while I'm quite happy saving all the time and going back to replay if something happens I don't like. :-) However I'll probably try something like this at some point and play through again - a break from Xenonauts first might be an idea.

At this time, there is only one "tactic" I can think of to counter psi attacks. Do not let your units "reserve" time units for a snap shot. But this opens up it's own host of problems naturally. So, if you rely on reaction-fire during the Caesan turn, you may want to have extra smoke grenades, and use those to protect your troops during a Caesan turn while having no TUs available to be used for reaction fire.

Thankfully, you won't need to use these tactics against Androns nor Sebillians since neither have psionic troops.

That's interesting, and explains a lot (I was wondering why berserk produced quite varied results).

As a thought about dealing with mind-control: consider equipping soldiers with less powerful weapons. Caesans aren't massively tough compared with other races, so lower-tier weapons will be reasonable against them still. And if you're primairly losing soldiers to 'friendly' fire, reducing your own weapon damage is likely to have a positive net effect overall. (Going for lots of pistol + shield soldiers might help, since the shields might mitigate some MC damage too.)

EDIT: Shotgun/carbine weapons might work, too. While they're effective against unarmoured aliens (e.g. Caesans), they're poor against armour and have a short effective range. This means that, in the event of mind control, they're 1) they're less likely to hit your soldiers and 2) unlikely to cause wounds against them even if they do. Wolf armour should provide ample protection against a laser carbine and minimise 'friendly' fire incidents (until armour degredation kicks in, anyway).

Wow, I'd understand the "realism" of removing PSI powers from humans, but I figured there would be some sort of counter like a dampening field. Something along the lines of "After researching a captured alien, our scientists were able to measure a wave form of energy emanating from the alien's brain. A method of disrupting this energy has been discovered which can be attached to the inside of a soldier's helmet to provide protection from distant manipulation. However, to make it portable, the size and power of the helmet may not protect against a directed attack from close proximity"....or some such.

Psionics aren't meant to be so powerful you have to utterly gimp your soldiers so they don't kill each other. Bear in mind they've only been working for a couple of builds, if that, so they've not had time to find the correct balance equilibrium like stuff that has been in the game longer has.

Psionics already use squad sight, but we can change some of the more powerful abilities to be based on direct LOS...or give them more limited range. But if that's the case, I think powers like fear should not require any LOS (not even squad sight). It's cool to have the X-Com 94 approach where your units are being attacked from the darkness, it's rather panic inducing.