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Ground Combat Balance - V21 Stable (Hotfix)


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Only Light Drones have machineguns, though. The Medium and Heavy drones are more like cyberdiscs.
Well, maybe only the Lt. ones then...I've noticed quite a bit of moaning scattered across various about suppression in general since the v21 Stable came out. Maybe the whole topic needs review including what the Xenonauts can/can't do in that regard. Perhaps it shouldn't have as much effect on TU even when it does work. I think anyone should still be able to get off at least a snapshot even if suppressed. I think TU reduction caused by suppression is removed AFTER the TU cost to fire for weight is load is calculated, so if your guys have extra weight on them they aren't capable of firing at all. That seemed to be what happened to my guys as I recall. I couldn't even fire back even with a snapshot. I thought suppression was supposed to affect movement and reaction fire, but not totally disable your troops. The aliens wouldn't suffer quite as badly since they are never overweight and some of them don't even suffer suppression effects to begin with. Also, you might consider range, smoke, and where the bullets actually land for suppression. As someone else pointed out it makes little sense for someone behind 100% cover (like a high wall) to be suppressed by enemy fire (although I understand it might be a bit to late sweeping changes to the actual mechanics.) Edited by StellarRat
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This really shouldn't be happening, the only way the AI can use psionics on you is if you are visible by some alien, or if you don't move at all.

I'm sure I'll see this happen again, when I do, I'll make a save file for you guys and upload it.

The way I've seen it happen is the psionics don't get used until I've been spotted. Once I've been spotted my entire squad is 'vulnerable' to being hit with psionics even if all the aliens outside of the ship are dead.

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I think anyone should still be able to get off at least a snapshot even if suppressed. I think TU reduction caused by suppression is removed AFTER the TU cost to fire for weight is load is calculated, so if your guys have extra weight on them they aren't capable of firing at all. That seemed to be what happened to my guys as I recall. I couldn't even fire back even with a snapshot.

I've never had issues being able to shoot after a soldier is suppressed. Suppression should reduce your TUs to half their maximum. Since no (none-heavy) weapon has a snapshot cost above 50% of a soldier's base TUs it should never be the case that you can't shoot after suppression. So if you couldn't shoot at all once suppressed, I suspect this is a bug.

EDIT: Just did a quick test and I can't see anything wrong. Even when I overburdened my soldiers they were getting the proper number of TUs when suppressed and could still take shots.

As someone else pointed out it makes little sense for someone behind 100% cover (like a high wall) to be suppressed by enemy fire (although I understand it might be a bit to late sweeping changes to the actual mechanics.)

I think this depends on the context. If a unit is around a corner or something similar, I think it's reasonable for them to be suppressed by shooting near them (in real-world terms, you're shooting to keep the target in cover where they're safe). But if it's just someone on the other side of a wall with no chance of being hit or whatever, fair enough. I'm not sure it would be easy to code a distinction between the two, though.

Edited by kabill
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I've never had issues being able to shoot after a soldier is suppressed. Suppression should reduce your TUs to half their maximum. Since no (none-heavy) weapon has a snapshot cost above 50% of a soldier's base TUs it should never be the case that you can't shoot after suppression. So if you couldn't shoot at all once suppressed, I suspect this is a bug.

EDIT: Just did a quick test and I can't see anything wrong. Even when I overburdened my soldiers they were getting the proper number of TUs when suppressed and could still take shots.

I think this depends on the context. If a unit is around a corner or something similar, I think it's reasonable for them to be suppressed by shooting near them (in real-world terms, you're shooting to keep the target in cover where they're safe). But if it's just someone on the other side of a wall with no chance of being hit or whatever, fair enough. I'm not sure it would be easy to code a distinction between the two, though.

I'm pretty certain I couldn't fire at all. Try loading up your guys with all LMGs and rocket launchers then stack up as much ammo on each as they can carry and still have around 25 TUs remaining. I can't retest this easily as I was on Ironman mode and don't have a save to start from.
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I'm pretty certain I couldn't fire at all. Try loading up your guys with all LMGs and rocket launchers then stack up as much ammo on each as they can carry and still have around 25 TUs remaining. I can't retest this easily as I was on Ironman mode and don't have a save to start from.

Sorry, didn't mean to say you were wrong (was about to edit to make that clear). But it doesn't seem to be an issue with suppression in general (in my test I had soldiers down to 28-30ish TUs) so perhaps is something to do with Light Drones? I don't know.

Although, now I think about it: when you were on that mission, were all your troops armed with Rocket Launchers/LMGs? If so, that's the problem: none of these weapons have an attack using less than 50% TUs, so when suppressed you can't fire them.

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Although, now I think about it: when you were on that mission, were all your troops armed with Rocket Launchers/LMGs? If so, that's the problem: none of these weapons have an attack using less than 50% TUs, so when suppressed you can't fire them.
Yes, they were all carry either rockets or LMGs. I always take all heavy weapons on terror missions. I wonder it that's a game mechanics problem or not? Should any weapon ever be totally unable to fire it the operator is suppressed? Doesn't seem right to me. I think the LMG and rocket launcher both should have a snap mode that allow fire under 50% of TU's even if it's inaccurate.
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Yes, they were all carry either rockets or LMGs. I always take all heavy weapons on terror missions. I wonder it that's a game mechanics problem or not? Should any weapon ever be totally unable to fire it the operator is suppressed? Doesn't seem right to me. I think the LMG and rocket launcher both should have a snap mode that allow fire under 50% of TU's even if it's inaccurate.

Personally I'm ok with it. In terms of 'realism', I'd argue that a rocket launcher isn't something you can (or should!) fire haphazardly. LMG there's a better case for, but you'd have to overhaul the whole weapon to make that work (not impossible, by any means, but it would go against the recent changes to LMGs), In terms of game balance, I'd argue it's a good thing to discourage mass deployment of heavy weapons. And in any case, you'd only need a few soldiers (armed with precision rifles?) to snipe down light drones which are causing issues for your heavy weapons soldiers.

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And in any case, you'd only need a few soldiers (armed with precision rifles?) to snipe down light drones which are causing issues for your heavy weapons soldiers.
Actually, in my case, soldiers with sniper rifles wouldn't have helped. I was pinned down by a drone that was using squad sight. I NEVER actually saw the drone just fire coming out of the darkness. My guys were all dead by fourth round. Five were killed by the drone fire and the remaining three were killed by a Reaper that entered the Chinook from the side door. I had no hope of escaping it because I had no TUs to run or to fire due to the suppression. Probably would have lost the remaining three to the drone in another round or two anyway even without the Reaper attack. It's nearly impossible to escape a drone once it starts firing. You can't move very far after that. Smoke won't help either. The volume of fire will wound your men every turn regardless of cover or smoke due to the high ROF and the fact that misses have a fair chance of hitting other soldiers. The suppression seems to be 100% effective from what I can tell. Out of eight men in Wolf not a single one was unsupressed for the entire four rounds. Any groups of soldiers that get attacked by two light drones are certainly doomed.

In my other encounter with a light drone, I had men with laser rifles and Wolf. Four guys were pinned down behind some crates for four rounds. I got lucky and one guy on the far edge of the group was unsuppressed for a round and managed to destroy the drone with a snapshot. In that encounter I lost three out of the four soldiers and certainly would have lost them all had they not had the crates for cover.

One other point: From a mathematical standpoint doubling the radius of suppression for a weapon increases the area suppressed by a factor of 4x not 2x. It's a squared relationship, circular area = 3.14 R^2. Since the game is played in two dimensions that is a HUGE increase in effectiveness for a weapon. A 4 radius suppression affects 50 tiles, 3 radius = 31 tiles, 2 radius = 12 tiles. In real life, the weapon would need to also fire 4x the ammo to be match up to the area i.e. be four times a powerful.

Edited by StellarRat
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It sounds like it might be a problem with spawn points on a map considering you were being murdered almost out of the gate. Next time you're on that map take a screenshot so we can work out which one it was. Drones have their own set of spawn points, it may be that they were placed too close to your dropship.

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@StellarRat: Fair enough. It sounds like a particularly unpleasant situation to have been in (Reapers are horrible at the best of times).

What might actually avoid something like that happening is setting the range of the drone weapon to sight range or lower (say, 15 tiles?), since weapons don't suppress beyond their range. At least that way you always have a chance to retaliate rather than being pinned down out of the dark (night missions excepted, I guess).

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It sounds like it might be a problem with spawn points on a map considering you were being murdered almost out of the gate. Next time you're on that map take a screenshot so we can work out which one it was. Drones have their own set of spawn points' date=' it may be that they were placed too close to your dropship.[/quote']Yes, that too, but I think the effectiveness and radius of light drone suppression is mostly the problem.
Edited by StellarRat
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What might actually avoid something like that happening is setting the range of the drone weapon to sight range or lower (say, 15 tiles?), since weapons don't suppress beyond their range. At least that way you always have a chance to retaliate rather than being pinned down out of the dark (night missions excepted, I guess).
That probably wouldn't have helped me too much either since we had all heavy weapons, but it would help if you had someone with light arms. What I'd really like to is the chance of suppression being less than what appears to be 100% (like 50/50). That way your guys could sprint out of the area a few at a time. A decrease in radius to about half would be my second choice, and the other suggestions would follow.
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This really shouldn't be happening, the only way the AI can use psionics on you is if you are visible by some alien, or if you don't move at all.

Gijs-Jan, this does not appear to be the case for me. Of course I can't really prove it, as from the way they shoot you from out of sight aliens can clearly see you when you can't see them, so I can't be sure when they can see me. It certainly appears to me on some of the missions I have attempted that once the psiuonic attacks start they don't stop, regardless of how I move and hide my soldiers.

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That probably wouldn't have helped me too much either since we had all heavy weapons, but it would help if you had someone with light arms. What I'd really like to is the chance of suppression being less than what appears to be 100% (like 50/50). That way your guys could sprint out of the area a few at a time. A decrease in radius to about half would be my second choice, and the other suggestions would follow.

I'm not keen on introducing chance to suppression because I don't want those bloomin' aliens to get off so easily, and changing the rules for us will change the rules for them. There's a lot of uncertainty in the game, what with chances to hit and a +/- 50% damage range and what-have-you, and in this crazy world I like having something to depend on. I don't think I'm alone there - count up the number of "flashbangs are bugged" posts over the last few beta feedback threads.

I think the suppression radius nerf will be enough. For those who don't know, soldiers regenerate 25% of their suppression HP per turn. This means it's very easy to chain suppress (and be chain suppressed) - if your suppression HP is low then any punk can keep you pinned down. Your poor soldiers were up the creek because with a suppression radius of 4, that drone could pin down everyone forever. When it's 2, one or two might be able to limp away.

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I'm not keen on introducing chance to suppression because I don't want those bloomin' aliens to get off so easily' date=' and changing the rules for us will change the rules for them. There's a lot of uncertainty in the game...I think the suppression radius nerf will be enough.[/quote']Your solution is the easiest one to implement obviously. That and/or a reduction in drone sight and shooting range. I'm not sure exactly how the suppression calculations are done, but it seems to me that some soldiers would be too brave/crazy to easily be suppressed. Also, being suppressed in Xenonauts is a little wacky because the "normal" action of someone that is suppressed is to scramble for the nearest cover and/or hit the dirt. In Xenonauts there is no "dirt" to hit so to speak because there is no prone postion to decrease the chances of being hit. The best the can do is crouch and that's not really too safe if you have no cover to crouch behind you'd be far better off running for the nearest available cover.
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Your solution is the easiest one to implement obviously. That and/or a reduction in drone sight and shooting range. I'm not sure exactly how the suppression calculations are done, but it seems to me that some soldiers would be too brave/crazy to easily be suppressed.

A soldier's bravery stat dictates how much suppression damage they can endure before being suppressed. So some soldiers are too brave/crazy to be easily suppressed (depending on what you define as 'easy').

Regarding the point about reduced sight range, I meant it as a solution to not being able to shoot your suppressor at all, not specifically with regards to not shooting with heavy weapons while suppressed. There should be *some* kind of solution to being suppressed: not being able to shoot with heavy weapons is one thing (you can solve that by bringing fewer heavy weapons) but not being able to shoot because the target is out of sight range is another (not as much you can do with that).

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Regarding the point about reduced sight range, I meant it as a solution to not being able to shoot your suppressor at all, not specifically with regards to not shooting with heavy weapons while suppressed. There should be *some* kind of solution to being suppressed: not being able to shoot with heavy weapons is one thing (you can solve that by bringing fewer heavy weapons) but not being able to shoot because the target is out of sight range is another (not as much you can do with that).
Yes, I fully understood that. Also, if I would have brought a vehicle of some type with me I probably could have dealt with the problem.
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The debugger is saying I am hitting, but there is no 'grunt/buzz' or movement from the alien, and no apparant damage? I just "missed" 3 95% shots and one 88%, even though the debugger says hit shot.

00047042	51280.48828125	[408] AI turn took 43.750000 sec	00047043	51285.28125000	[408] UpdateTilesLitMap(TRect) took 0.000000 sec, processed 12 objs	00047044	51285.28906250	[408] ICharacter::SetLOSFOW() took 0.000000 sec.	00047045	51285.30078125	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047046	51285.30078125	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047047	51285.30078125	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047048	51285.30078125	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (3.605551) - weapon range (10)) / weapon range (10) )	00047049	51285.30078125	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.930000	00047050	51285.30078125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.930000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047051	51285.30078125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.740000) )	00047052	51285.30078125	[408]   weaponAccuracy (81.000000) = weaponAccuracy (65.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047053	51285.30468750	[408]   unmodified accuracy (81.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (81.000000)	00047054	51285.30468750	[408] Damage for unit:	00047055	51285.30468750	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (10) / max(weapon range (10), dist. to target (3.605551)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047056	51285.30468750	[408]   normal damage (48) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.080000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047057	51285.30468750	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (1.160000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047058	51285.30468750	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.730000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047059	51285.30468750	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047060	51285.30468750	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047061	51285.30468750	[408] short range hit bonus (28.733) = (5 - dist. to target (3.606) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047062	51285.30468750	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) = (unitAccuracy (81.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (28.733)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047063	51285.30468750	[408] Random number (70) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) => hit shot	00047064	51285.30859375	[408] >>> End calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047065	51285.30859375	[408] CTileBasedSceneRenderer::SetNightForAllTiles_Human(TRect) took 0.000000 sec	00047066	51285.30859375	[408] CTileBasedSceneRenderer::SetNightForAllTiles_Human(TRect) took 0.000000 sec	00047067	51285.33593750	[408] UpdateTilesNightMode(TRect) took 0.125000 sec, processed 12 objs.	00047068	51287.01953125	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047069	51287.01953125	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047070	51287.01953125	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047071	51287.01953125	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (3.605551) - weapon range (10)) / weapon range (10) )	00047072	51287.01953125	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.930000	00047073	51287.01953125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.930000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047074	51287.01953125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.740000) )	00047075	51287.01953125	[408]   weaponAccuracy (81.000000) = weaponAccuracy (65.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047076	51287.01953125	[408]   unmodified accuracy (81.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (81.000000)	00047077	51287.01953125	[408] Damage for unit:	00047078	51287.01953125	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (10) / max(weapon range (10), dist. to target (3.605551)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047079	51287.01953125	[408]   normal damage (50) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.130000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047080	51287.01953125	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.580000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047081	51287.01953125	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.970000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047082	51287.01953125	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047083	51287.01953125	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047084	51287.01953125	[408] short range hit bonus (28.733) = (5 - dist. to target (3.606) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047085	51287.01953125	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) = (unitAccuracy (81.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (28.733)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047086	51287.01953125	[408] Random number (29) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) => hit shot	00047087	51287.01953125	[408] >>> End calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047088	51294.85937500	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047089	51294.85937500	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047090	51294.85937500	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047091	51294.85937500	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (4.472136) - weapon range (30)) / weapon range (30) )	00047092	51294.85937500	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.880000	00047093	51294.85937500	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.880000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047094	51294.85937500	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.760000) )	00047095	51294.85937500	[408]   weaponAccuracy (131.000000) = weaponAccuracy (105.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047096	51294.85937500	[408]   unmodified accuracy (131.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (131.000000)	00047097	51294.85937500	[408] Damage for unit:	00047098	51294.85937500	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (30) / max(weapon range (30), dist. to target (4.472136)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047099	51294.85937500	[408]   normal damage (60) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.350000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047100	51294.85937500	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (1.110000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047101	51294.85937500	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (1.390000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047102	51294.85937500	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047103	51294.85937500	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047104	51294.85937500	[408] short range hit bonus (18.334) = (5 - dist. to target (4.472) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047105	51294.85937500	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (123.134) = (unitAccuracy (131.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (18.334)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047106	51294.86328125	[408]   chanceToHitTargetTile > max value => chanceToHitTargetTile = 95.000000	00047107	51294.86328125	[408] Random number (33) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (95.000) => hit shot	00047108	51294.86328125	[408] >>> End calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047109	51299.77734375	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047110	51299.77734375	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047111	51299.77734375	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047112	51299.77734375	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (4.472136) - weapon range (30)) / weapon range (30) )	00047113	51299.77734375	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.880000	00047114	51299.77734375	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.880000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047115	51299.77734375	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.760000) )	00047116	51299.77734375	[408]   weaponAccuracy (81.000000) = weaponAccuracy (65.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047117	51299.77734375	[408]   unmodified accuracy (81.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (81.000000)	00047118	51299.77734375	[408] Damage for unit:	00047119	51299.77734375	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (30) / max(weapon range (30), dist. to target (4.472136)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047120	51299.77734375	[408]   normal damage (64) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.430000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047121	51299.77734375	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.810000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047122	51299.77734375	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.870000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047123	51299.77734375	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047124	51299.77734375	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047125	51299.77734375	[408] short range hit bonus (18.334) = (5 - dist. to target (4.472) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047126	51299.78125000	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (83.134) = (unitAccuracy (81.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (18.334)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047127	51299.78125000	[408] Random number (30) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (83.134) => hit shot	

All of these shots apparantly hit, but the andron made no noise, no movement, and I don't think it took damage?

I moved this here also since this is on the stable version. Not sure if bug. Probably.

ACTUALLY; it died one laser pistol shot later. So the problem isn't balance, it's me thinking I'm missing because it's not indicating a hit.

Edited by lifehole
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Thanks. Hmm. So this is on an Andron - what colour (i.e. what rank) was it?

I suspect it's something to do with the androns having so much armour that they are being hit and not taking any damage. However, repeated hits will reduce its armour to the level where it starts to take damage and then dies.

If that's the case, we need to show sparks and a "deflection" noise when bullets are fully absorbed by armour. It should say "RESISTED" above the unit's head, but that won't appear on Veteran. Are you playing on Veteran?

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Yes, I'm playing on veteran. I couldn't tell the difference between a miss and a hit, and I have never played on normal before. It was the soldier rank Andron, I think; atleast according to lore+.

When no noise is produced it just seems like a miss to me, since I've never played on anything but veteran I guess it's impossible to tell the difference if the bullet is scattered on the same tile (pointblank) either way.

So basically, yeah I think it is the androns having high armor values and stuff like laser pistols not doing enough, but it was impossible for me to tell between miss/resist on veteran. Thanks; maybe add a 'deflected' noise as you said.

Edited by lifehole
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FYI guys there is a new experimental build out and a new balance thread to go with it, but I am going to leave this thread here for a time to allow discussion of the ground combat balance as a whole rather than just focusing on the latest experimental's changes.

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