Opinions from a player new to TU combat mechanics

Hello dear players!

First some short introduction about me:I never played any of the original X-Com games. My introduction to the series was X-Com: EU (2012). I played EU and the EW expansion for a total of 500 hours and I enjoyed it a lot. Naturally curious about origins of the series and learning about Xenonauts I decided to give it a try.

My knowledge of Xenonauts mechanics is frankly quite limited having played it for two days. I am sure that there are lots of details that I am not yet aware of so feel free to correct me.

I believe that the developers hope that Xenonauts is interesting not only for the diehard original xcom players, but those new to the genre are also finding it fun and worth of their time.

I bring you to the table the opinions of someone devoid of OG nostalgia while being heavily biased from X-Com EU experience. I do not know how open are you to criticism and how this commmunity usually handles threads like these. But i will try to write into a respectful manner as I understand that creating Xenonauts was a difficult endeavour.

I like everything about Geoscape/strategic layer offers. Only one question though: what is the point of scientist allocation to simultaneous research projects? Does every extra scientist add the same amount of research points as the rest? I suppose it's a linear progression, correct? If this is true than splitting scientists between two projects will always be a strategically wrong choice. Why not just first focus all your effort on one project, reap its benefits, then focus on the second one?

Battlescape: this is where i believe Xenonauts will have trouble attracting new/EU players.

The devil here is time units mechanics. I understand that most of you would argue that Xenonauts tries to be faithful to the original game and that time units were an integral part of OG, but you have already introduced stuff of your own like Riot Shields, Suppression, Cover. Therefore, it's not a carbon copy of OG, it represents your own vision of the game, therefore it's open for criticism. I noticed that you already have trouble balancing TU with all those discussions about % based TU costs for weapon shots instead of fixed TU costs.

I understand you cannot/don't want to remove TU from the game. OG players are probably loving it and they hate the 2 action systems from X-Com EU. I don't want to talk about which one is more realistic as this would be opening a can of worms.

Why turning your soldier costs TU? What are you trying to achieve with this? Make combat more realistic? What is the point of TU reserve if my snap shot will require 21 TU to shoot instead of 20, just because some alien is a few degrees to the East of the soldier's field of view? This adds complexity to the game but does not add depth. The tactical decision making doesn't become any more fun because of this. Why is TU cost per angle so severe? You are basically charging 1 TU for every 45 degrees, right? It makes the movement and shooting planning even less fun. It transforms the battlescape into a Time Unit Accounting mini-game.

When I am paying 20 TU for the soldier to snap shot, I am paying for him to take the gun, aim it into the direction where alien is and shoot. Why do you factor extra cost for aiming just because the alien is a few degrees to the other side? Xenonauts soldiers seem to suffer from some severe neck/torso pain that makes turning while moving difficult?

I believe that many new players will find the TU movement costs quite high. My soldiers are too slow if they want to have a reaction shot available. While breaching light scouts I am not always able to reach the back aliens with a shotgun to the face. Speaking of which, why is a shotgun to the face not enough to guarantee a caesan kill? (about that later)

HIDDEN MOVEMENT. Is there any explanation why you cannot just teleport anything that is outside my soldiers' field of view? Why do I have to endure these painfully slow turn times? This is such a no brainer that I really have nothing to comment here. I am not asking you to replicate the stupid teleport bugs from EU, but do something for your players!

Searching for the alien craft. As I read, you were several thousand short of kickstarter funding for the motion sensor. Let me tell you in all my honesty, searching randomly for the alien craft is NOT FUN. I would like some general direction hint towards which i should advance. Hell, even Firaxis recognized this issue and gave us at some visual hints about alien location, their maps are generally built in such a manner that you know in which direction you should advance. The pacing is just no really there.

RNG for the sake of RNG. There is a reasonable amount what I consider a healthy Random Number Generator experience. Planning arround RNG aim/damage takes a solid effort. I think some of the combat things could have their effects, parameters more on the predictable side. We like random, we need random, but we don't want too much random in our games. Why flashbangs are so unpredictable, sometimes they supress, sometimes they do not? Oh do some species/rank aliens have different HP? Is this true? If yes, why? Isn't aiming, weapon damage not enough RNG to make the game difficult?

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Finally, I really don't know If I did a good job at explaining my feelings in this post. What I basically wanted to share with you are my concerns for Xenonauts attracting new players that never played original X-Com. And I believe that battlescape will feel broken for many new players and thus ruin their experience. They will enjoy geoscape, they will enjoy planning bases, downing UFOs, but they will not find the battlescape fun.

Please notice, I have nothing against xenonauts being a difficult game, because this is what players expect from an xcom remake, but it's important for you to understand that we want the game to be difficult because of the difficult decisions we are forced to make but not because of the RNG, Micromanagent and other chores we are forced to endure.

I don't want to criticize you guys. But I just cannot get EU combat experience out of my head. Even if some of you might call it streamlined but it does offer this fun combat decision making I struggle to find in Xenonauts.

I will refrain from giving suggestions and asking for massive gameplay overhauls. I only want to point you to some of the issues many players like myself might have with Xenonauts when it is released.

Hey welcome! Constructive criticism is always welcome here!

2. While the Hidden movement screen may be a tad...expansive...it does also provide a hidden benefit towards completing a level: how many aliens are left. Many-a X-COM veteran have used this to great effect as it can tell them when to be cautious and when to start playing a bit more aggressively. I do see your point, however.

3. While some indication of where the aliens are would be nice, the fear of what is lurking behind the next corner is important, especially to old X-COM veterans. This, plus the old map doodad randomization of the original game, is what created a tense atmosphere that sometimes made us change our undergarments.

4. Enemy HP maximum is based upon species and armor, not RNG. You can't expect a starship commander to have the same piddly armor as a lowly scout pilot, now can you? Or how the Sebillians, a species that were created to be shock troops, have the same amount of HP as the lanky Caesans, the Gigantism-suffering cousin of the Greys?

As for the flashbangs...there's currently a bug with them, if I remember correctly...

Edited original post.

Ok, so the HP does depend on alien rank. The keyword is "maximum". So it does vary among the same rank same aliens? How can a new player identify these ranks? And how much HP they have? I don't like guessing which caesan will take more to kill, the one with the blue t-shirt or the one with the red t-shirt.

X-Com EU is more verbal on its combat parameters and potential outcomes, thus it presents the choice for the player to decide. In Xenonauts I don't really have the impression that I am fully aware of the choices that I make and their potential outcomes.

TUs or action points aren't simply a matter of X-Com nostalgia. They're a staple mechanic used by a lot of turn based games and are generally associated with the genre. Jagged Alliance is another famous classic that sort of entrenched this mechanic as a something to look for in TBS games.

Gameplay-wise the main idea is that TUs allow you to fine tune your actions and maneuvers to do "just the thing" you want when coordinating your squad. Players who are used to it typically don't feel the "accounting" you describe, it just flows intuitively or they get used to it after a while.

For example, Jagged Alliance 2 had different movement costs for walking, running, crouching, crawling and then a sneaking variant for each of those plus different costs for turning when standing/crouching/crawling plus different lines of sight and sound levels for all those states also depending on different kinds of cover, terrain, camouflage, time of day, equipment. Oh and there was also swimming, vaulting over low cover, climbing on top roofs, all with their own action point costs and other factors. Plus stuff like weight, morale, wounds, it goes on.

For players who enjoy that level of gameplay EU2012 feels kinda empty and a game like Xenonauts/X-Com falls somewhere in between.

Having said that it's probably true that Xenonauts need more balancing in terms of firing vs. movement costs and such to make sure all weapons are useful and needed tactical options aren't restricted.

It's a similar thing with UFO searching. Having an arrow point where to go takes away tension and the sense of risk and exploration where you nervously wonder what awaits you whenever you open a door or expose a soldier to take a peek. It's a generational gap I guess.

Xenonauts does make an earnest effort to compromise and appeal to newer players and is in many ways streamlined compared to the old X-Com (believe me) but it mostly caters to an old school core. It is what it is.

Edited original post. Ok, so the HP does depend on alien rank. The keyword is "maximum". So it does vary among the same rank same aliens? How can a new player identify these ranks? And how much HP they have? I don't like guessing which caesan will take more to kill, the one with the blue t-shirt or the one with the red t-shirt.

This is something you learn playing the game. The autopsies should tell you about each of the aliens and their different ranks. For example a Caesan non-combatant (red shirt) is weaker than a Caesan guard (blue shirt). You'll also notice aliens wearing armor and such.

I'll have a look at Jagged Aliance. Which version do you recommend to try? May be i will look at Xenonauts with different eyes after that experience.

I absolutely agree with a lot of your points, having played EU/EW to death also. Yes, in comparison, this game drags, and all things considered I'd definitely have to give the nod to EW for sheer fun factor.

However, in Xenonauts' defense, you can do a lot of things in this game that you can't in EW. Only being able to carry two items max in the Firaxis game is rather silly. You can't pick up anything off the ground, or leave anything for others. The advancement of your skills based on promotions, instead of actually developing them in combat, is less meaningful and rewarding. Aerial dogfights require next to no input on your part. The whole system of gene mods, mechs, and double-tap archangel snipers is way overpowered. Etc.

In short, this game compared to EW is like comparing Call of Duty to Panzer General. It all depends on what you're looking for, comparatively fast-paced action or more hard-core simulation. Xenonauts is going to require a lot more thought, patience, and perseverance. I would agree that it is much more of a niche game, and is not going to appeal to new TU players, or expand the potential market like Firaxis did.

Having said that, though, I am still enjoying playing it. If the transition from EW is too dramatic, and you're finding Xenonauts just too slow-paced, I might suggest that you try UFO:Extraterrestrials Gold, which I've also played to death, and feel that it strikes a balance between this game and the new XCom ones

I'll have a look at Jagged Aliance. Which version do you recommend to try? May be i will look at Xenonauts with different eyes after that experience.

Um, I hate to say this, but if the pacing and micromanagement of Xenonauts is a bit tedious for you, then you definitely do not want to try Jagged Alliance. It's even more hard-core than this, IMHO

May be I will just go more extreme way and try JA before I come back to Xenonauts. If people tell that TU is more like a simplified version, than I am really curious to see how much more extreme this can be in other tactical games.

I am not going to argue about EU geoscape as that layer is more of benchmark checking. Get X satelites in month Y. Build Generator Z days ahead and get N engineers so you can build on day T a satelite uplink and so on.

The general EU player consensus is that many would be happy to take the OG geoscape and combine it with the EU battlescape.

The general EU player consensus is that many would be happy to take the OG geoscape and combine it with the EU battlescape.

THAT would be the monkey's taters. Having multiple bases to develop and defend, and lots of alien bases to assault, without going through the launch-satellites frenzy, and then having EW's tactical battles underpinning it all, would be bliss

THAT would be the monkey's taters. Having multiple bases to develop and defend, and lots of alien bases to assault, without going through the launch-satellites frenzy, and then having EW's tactical battles underpinning it all, would be bliss

If it had both larger maps and a wider variety of them I'd definitely be returning to EU. The fact that the aliens could all pretty much be found in the vicinity of a small restaurant like they only wanted the Clam Chowder special was downright silly in my opinion...

I'm surprised no-one answered Autoclaves' question on scientists. The answer is no. Unlike engineers, each new scientist added to a research project adds fewer man hours to a project than the last and the total figure is kept deliberately vague. If you add more scientists to a project when it has the "Excellent" rating, they do positively contribute to the research project, but not as much.

Double post, because I only just thought of this.

I find it interesting that Autoclave thinks that each alien has a randomly determined amount of HP -they don't. Each class and each racial type has a fixed amount of HP. The confusion probably stems from the fact that while all weapons do a fixed amount of damage, a random modifier of up to 50% either positively or negatively is applied to the damage value when determining actual weapon damage so each time a shot hits any target that shot will do a psdeuo-random amount of damage. On base damage alone, a shotgun will always kill a Caesan noncom or guard (provided two pellets strike the noncom or all three strike the guard), however once the modifier is applied a shotgun may or may not kill a guard, depending on whether the RNG are looking favourably. However a shotgun is more likely to kill a guard then say, a rifle, because the pellets mitigate any spikiness in the damage modifier.

Thank you for answering my scientist question, man i wish there was a complete and thorough guide on every game mechanics for the new players. Collecting information it bits by bits is like playing D&D without reading a rulebook.

That's because the rules are still under revision. It's possible to pin down the mechanics as we now know them, but Chris or Aaron may be struck by inspiration and decide to change a mechanic (TU usage is a good example - for almost 5 years everything had a fixed TU cost, now it's a hybrid of a percentage-based and fixed-cost model, which can be altered back to a completely fixed cost). So until the game is released, everything is still up in the air.

Autoclave, thanks for the opinions. Are you playing V20 Stable or are you on the Experimental branch and playing V21 Stable? You'll probably find the soldiers a bit more mobile in V21 because we've tweaked the TU system a bit and lowered fire costs overall.

As people have pointed out already, the game's fairly hardcore but not super hardcore. That's the problem with an X-Com remake - we can't stray too far from the subject matter, and indeed XCOM 2012 has kind of forced us more into the "faithful" remake category because they've already done the "updated" remake.

I can see why you might find a lot of the things in your post irritating, but they were mostly important components of the game we're trying to recreate. Plus, hopefully when you get used to the way TUs play you'll enjoy the game more. Or maybe TUs are just not for you? They're pretty old-school these days, but then most of the people buying the game are after old-school

There will be a proper manual available when the game releases too.

Thanks for sharing your view, it is always interesting to see another side.

These are a few of my own feelings on the systems you mention, not saying they right or important, they are just mine.

I felt the 2012 remake had very little depth but was ok for something to spend an hour or so playing, no reason to go back to it though once I put it down.

I think it is very telling that I didn't even finish it when I have logged several hundred hours on each of the older games.

It is not because it is a bad xcom game either, I just found it an uninteresting game no matter what name it has.

The TU system would have added much more control over the characters rather than the inherently limited two action system.

It has nothing to do with realism (turn based cannot be realistic by definition) but a lot to do with control.

Planning the use of your TU is important, if you will not be able to reach an enemy with your shotgun then you need to change your plan, maybe advance part of the way and drop smoke, send in a shield user to distract the enemy, throw a frag grenade or whatever.

TUs give you far more options than just move and shoot or move twice, although it does have its own unique set of limitations.

I can understand it taking a bit of play time to get used to this system though if you are used to thinking of your tactics in relation to a different set of limitations.

Turning takes time, it may not be much time but that is why it is represented by a low TU cost.

With no TU cost a soldier effectively has 360 degree vision as you can spin them on the spot to see anything in any direction with no penalty or drawback.

This is a peculiarity of turn based combat as your enemies will just stand there and watch you do it.

It also makes little sense to me that it would take exactly the same amount of time for me to aim at a target standing directly in front of me as it would to aim at a target standing directly behind me.

The TU cost is how much it takes to raise your weapon and fire at an enemy, it doesn't take into account the TU cost to advance into range or to turn to face the target.

It leaves those functions up to the player as those costs will be different in almost every situation.

If you are reserving TU for a reaction shot then you are by definition moving more slowly than someone who is not.

Think of someone advancing cautiously with their weapon ready to fire compared to someone who is running flat out.

This was the same in xcom 2012 I believe?

If you moved once then went to overwatch or fired a shot you were moving a lot slower than if you moved twice if I recall correctly.

Exploration and atmosphere lend a lot of tension to this type of game, maps that actively point you in the right direction and have nothing to see in any other do nothing for me.

I feel that some of the current maps in Xenonauts are a little too streamlined and mono-directional but there should be enough variety that these come as a refreshing change when they do occur.

The fact that the aliens are also present out there somewhere and actively performing some function, like killing civilians, even when you have no idea where they are lends yet more tension.

In xcom/Xenonauts finding an alien when there are civilians around is great, you can now intervene and prevent them from killing them.

In xcom2012 finding an alien when there were civilians around was disappointing as they were now able to attack them.

The hidden movement phase could do with speeding up though, it takes too long as it is.

I agree that there is possibly a little too much variation on damage from weapon shots at the moment, I would personally tone it down from the 50-150% but I haven't really tested that it is just a feeling.

If you decide to try Jagged Alliance 2 also use the v1.13 mod, it makes the game much more playable for me.

Thank you for your replies. I am playing the latest stable steam version, the one which you get when you buy the game.

Gauddike we do belong to different focus groups, i can respect that, for some reason i missed the tactical games in the 90s. The only thing i remember playing was commandos, the real time tactical squad stealth.

I just believe that something can be done about TU to make them more fun while keeping their core principles. But i cannot express myself simply because i am no game deigner.

EU combat feels like navigating a probability tree which by itself is very fun. Here is a typical probability tree navigation in EU:

1. Do I take my chances and shoot at the alien behind the cover? Chance to hit is X. I need a crit to kill him, chance to crit is Y. I am in cover, but if I miss, he will have Z chance to hit me back.

2. May be i should leave my cover, flank the alien and get a guanrateed kill, but i am exposing myself to be killed by aliens in the fog. I don't know if there is anybody hiding there, should I risk it?

3. May be i stay in cover on overwatch? That alien still will have the same chance to shoot me like in pt.1 but if he will try to move he will be out of cover and I might have a higher chance at hitting him, although that will not be a crit.

4. May be i should just hunker down and guarantee that i will survive his shot, it looks like he will be unable to flank me in one move, and see if my chances in next turn will be more favorable.

And if you end up dead, you will always ask yourself why didn't you pick the other part of this decisional tree. This loop constantly provides interesting choices and reinfoces the fun experience of the game. This is how we EU tactical newbies feel.

I am struggling to experience the same thing in Xenonauts, this decision making process, I know that these choices are also here as well! but they are just somewhat hidden and not so well presented to the player.

The secret of experiencing this fun element is hidden somewhere among TU, RNG and necessary information for decision making. May be knowing the hit percentage is not enough? May be we also need to know the damage spread and the alien hp upon deciding to take a shot so we can better understand the choices that we have?

HIDDEN MOVEMENT. Is there any explanation why you cannot just teleport anything that is outside my soldiers' field of view? Why do I have to endure these painfully slow turn times? This is such a no brainer that I really have nothing to comment here. I am not asking you to replicate the stupid teleport bugs from EU, but do something for your players!

Methinks you have answered your question already . You say "no brainer", but you are well aware how "trivial" it was to fix the damn thing in XCOM2012. I bet Firaxis has good developers, so apparently it is not that easy as one can imagine. Also, a lot depends on engine and weighting costs vs. benefits. I would rather to have a safe mechanics in place.

@Autoclave I think it is just a case of finding it easier to consider your options when you are so used to the systems behind those options that you no longer need to even think about them.

In those same situations I was constantly thinking why can't I run into range, fire off a shot then duck into cover or why can't I drop a smoke grenade to provide me cover, run forward a little and then drop more smoke to cover the friendly who is stranded in the open.

The available options felt more limited but that was ok because that was what the game revolved around and the enemy had the same limitations

It was other design decisions I just couldn't get away with.

The constraints of the two action system were (ahem) alien to me while the TU system is one I have been used to for many years, although with some variations between the games using it.

I much prefer the more varied options available to me under the TU system but that could be more to do with my familiarity as any kind of superiority in the system.

Its kind of like why I prefer driving Fords over Vauxhalls, the latter are decent enough cars and they both do basically the same thing but they just don't feel right.

The headlight switch is in the wrong place, they don't have cup holders where I expect them and so on.

In general I have found that a lot of players who enjoy the TU based games are quite resistant to having too much information presented to them.

Enemy health bars and so on are considered almost cheating.

Should you know that the next hit will definitely kill the enemy or should you need to weigh your decision to fire with a backup plan on how to get out of the situation if they survive?

Gauddikke, you have given me some interesting answers i never thought of. I will still probably have difficulties enjoying the xenonauts battlescpe, but at least i recognize your aeguments. I guess you cannot make everyone happy. Every dev needs to decide who their focus group is.

So, a few words from me:

If you want some really complicated game based on TUs, try Jagged Alliance 2 with 1.13 mod. Sometimes, the another extreme can be more appealing than the middle ground.

As for the hidden movement, you can't teleport the enemy units around. Why? If the enemies are teleported, chances of your units reaction firing are next to zero. And as you know, reaction fire is a very important thing in this kind of games.

The 1TU cost of turning your head around? I think it's because you do need a minimal amount of time to turn your head around to check your surroundings. If every unit could see everything around them, flanking and moving out of sight to avoid enemy fire would be impossible.

The two actions per turn mechanic was also very confusing for me, since you were very limited in your options by that. It was also quite illogical. You can move and shoot, but you can't shoot and move? I know it's for balance and to make the mechanics very strict and less RNG based, but it takes away some fluidity from the game.

I also respect your opinion, since I really liked the 2012 remake, but I also liked the old games as well. To me, they only bear the similar name and turn based combat. Everything else is totally different.

So, a few words from me:

As for the hidden movement, you can't teleport the enemy units around. Why? If the enemies are teleported, chances of your units reaction firing are next to zero. And as you know, reaction fire is a very important thing in this kind of games.

I guess what Autoclave had in mind in just smarter mechanics behind the scene. In theory if in none of your units has line of sight to the enemy unit and alien has no intention of getting there, then you could just teleport the alien to a given position. It would be an optimization of an algorithm, not a change in game rules.

I am pretty sure that animations are sped up or not used for moves outside of the players vision.

That is a basic teleport system without compromising the inner workings of the game.

There was a discussion a long time ago where Chris mentioned they were looking into it at least, I am only assuming that it worked and was implemented.

The game engine is old and creaky, I wouldn't be surprised if it was incapable of working much faster without changes to the code that Goldhawk do not have permission to make.

Yeah, the animations that are out of sight and sound range pass instantly already. But it's useful to have the hidden movement screen because it builds tension and helps you work out what enemies you're facing from the sound effects....although it's not always to everyone's tastes. Anyone remember when it was a full-screen pop-up?

After a quick mod I made a year ago, I don't even remember the window popup anymore.