Opinions from a player new to TU combat mechanics

....It's a generational gap I guess.....

....TUs are just not for you? They're pretty old-school these days, but then most of the people buying the game are after old-school

Oh my, oh my.... Thank you for pointing out that we are those crazy people who, while the rest of the industry will have moved on to perhaps some 4D holographic virtual reality, will still be hunting sprite based games as grumpy old men on ancient pentium computers you won't be finding elsewhere than a dusty attic in the 2030s. Yeah man, we're old school even now.

Yeah, I heard Nirvana on the oldies station yesterday. Good grief. I've gone from cutting-edge to obsolete

For me coming from xcom 94 I liked the 2012 version but only 1 base and the very cut down geoscape made it very linear and the small amount of maps and no base defence didn't help as well, but I did like the graphics and the battlescape apart from the teleport bug that really frustrated me.

I feel they missed a chance to fix the geoscape with the expansion and make it less linear, I just wish they made the geoscape like the 94 version or is this game, for me the 94 version and this game feels more alive because of the geoscape and having the option for more bases, At least we got a base defence in the expansion.

It is like anything you will get used to the TU system like people got used to 2 actions in 2012, I myself like the tu system more as I think it gives you a larger scope to do things in 1 turn.

I have put just under 100 hours into 2012 so I do like it, but that nothing to the older x-com games, I am still trying to hold off on this game until it is released but it is getting hard as I want to play it, I find with certain games once I start playing I cannot stop until I burn myself out that game, 94 was the same.

I find it incredibly fascinating to read this thread and see how different people view the two systems. Me, I'm personally a fan of the UFO:Aftermath-style control system which is pseudo-turn based pausable real time. It always made the most sense to me, but not everyone is a fan of it.

That being said, I love both the old UFO Defense and XCOM2012 versions, but for different reasons. They're similar, but entirely different style of games. Both have advantages and disadvantages, in my mind.

That being said, I absolutely find the less information, fine-tune control style of X-COM/Xenoauts to be far more gripping and tense, and thus more exciting to play, than the more action/arcade style of XCOM2012. The new one does, however, have a much more fluid pace and quicker descision making. But on the other hand Xenonauts provide you with a much deeper and less rigid descision tree.

As an aside I really like the method UnderRail uses.

It is a turn based RPG in the style of the Fallout 1 and 2 if you haven't seen it.

Currently in alpha but there is a demo and early access.

The turn based combat uses a TU like system but there are two different types of points.

Movement Points can only be used for movement as you would expect.

Action points can be used for any actions, including attacking the enemy, reloading, moving or whatever.

This means offensive actions can be skipped in favour of more movement but movement cannot be skipped in favour of more offensive actions.

This is something like the system I would like to see used instead of the percentage system but I think it might be a bit late for Chris to consider it.

It combines the better balance of the percentage system with the flat costs of the old system.

So for example all soldiers would have 50AP and 50 MP to start with but could increase their MP as they level.

This gives them bonus movement without affecting how many times a turn they fire.

If they choose not to fire they can use the AP they have saved to move further or save it for reaction fire.

The scout armours can give bonus MP without affecting the offensive capabilities of the soldier while Predator armour could give bonus AP to increase offensive power without affecting movement much.

Effectively this has a very similar function to the current percentage system but in practice feels much simpler to use.

The difference in how much movement is possible after firing is also much more noticeable as you always have some MP left because shooting cannot use it.

I'll have a look at Jagged Aliance. Which version do you recommend to try? May be i will look at Xenonauts with different eyes after that experience.

You can get it drm free on GOG: http://www.gog.com/game/jagged_alliance_2

Or if you prefer Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/1620/

It's almost universally considered the best turn based tactics game but it does have a lot of micro management on the strategic side and I can't guarantee you'll like it so don't be angry with me if things go sour.

Similar to X-Com is has a strategic management side where you have to handle income, expenditure, hiring people, training militias, protecting captured territories, repairing equipment, providing medical treatment , acquiring new equipment, etc.

It also has excellent characters, voice acting, funny cut scenes and a story that's told through gameplay and in-game events rather than movies. It's a pretty sand boxy experience that doesn't hold your hand or point you in a specific direction (except at the beginning). A lot of things are left for you to discover.

If you do play it don't use any mods at start, get acquainted with it first.

I'll have a look at Jagged Aliance. Which version do you recommend to try? May be i will look at Xenonauts with different eyes after that experience.

Even though it's old, it's awesome! If you like detailed squad level combat. Be prepared to get sucked in. You will most likely get your a$$ kicked the first couple times. I put some hints on the Off Topic site that might be helpful. Only $5 on GOG when I got. Make sure to get JA2 with 1.13 not an earlier version.

It's genuinely excellent. But play it without 1.13 first, and when you play 1.13 turn off the massive counterattack option.

It's genuinely excellent. But play it without 1.13 first, and when you play 1.13 turn off the massive counterattack option.

I will second the bolded part in particular.

I am a veteran of turn based games of this type and have played JA several times over the years and I still hate that option.

It feels like the only way to beat it consistently is to know all about it and exploit the game systems rather than beat it with tactics, planning, or luck.

I don't want to be the party pooper here, but I couldn't stand JA. The inventory and ammo management systems were incredibly tedious and frustrating, and this is coming from a guy that's been playing TU games for 25 years and loves complex, detail-heavy simulations like Harpoon. I would strongly NOT recommend JA

Shun the party pooper, shun him, shunnnn.nnn.nn..n.

Thank you all for your kind posts and for being so helpful.

As I said, I only wanted to share the feelings of a person new to tactics genre.

As you probably know, when Firaxis were developing the gameplay concept for EU, they initially wanted to use time units. However, many other developers outside of the project didn't like it. The reception was so negative that Mr. Solomon had to scrap a full year of development.

Comercialy wise that probably saved them from failure. Thanks to it, many new players like me bought the game and felt the instant fun. It's like from the very second you start playing you are being bombarded by choices after choices after choices.

You know.. feeling so addicted to this sort of frequent decision making gameplay i ended up playing ... Hearthstone.

It's the same game of numbers and RNG, and the second I start playing it, it's choice after choice after choice. Entertaining.

PS: Oh and.. I got some sort of weird Jagged Alliance remake (back in action) part of another game pack on steam. I learned quickly that it has nothing to do with previous versions

PS2: I did played fallout 1, fallout 2. I did enjoy them! Although they DO have action points, something about that gameplay felt fun. I like that leveling in fallout is not just some stats but also perks. Which is kind of a horizontal progression that gives you more choices rather than a pure vertical one.

PS3: Does Xenonauts combat offer more choices as your research progresses or it is just more powerful guns with better armored soldiers?

Edited March 20, 2014 by Autoclave

You get more options as you are generally able to do more.

Your better soldiers should be able to move further so flanking is easier ad so on.

They don't really gain any new abilities though, apart from jump packs which are part of one of the armour types.

I haven't played Back in Action, it is another game I was put off from by the reviews and will only pick up when it is on a good sale.

You guys will be interested in this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2079547763/jagged-alliance-flashback/

I don't want to be the party pooper here, but I couldn't stand JA. The inventory and ammo management systems were incredibly tedious and frustrating, and this is coming from a guy that's been playing TU games for 25 years and loves complex, detail-heavy simulations like Harpoon. I would strongly NOT recommend JA

I was a little annoyed with the logistics side of the game until I found the button on the map that let you view every item on the ground in spreadsheet style and I figured how to use the character inventory management functions on the strategic screen. Using those two screen hand in hand makes handling the load outs pretty easy.

I was a little annoyed with the logistics side of the game until I found the button on the map that let you view every item on the ground in spreadsheet style and I figured how to use the character inventory management functions on the strategic screen. Using those two screen hand in hand makes handling the load outs pretty easy.

Well, pooh, I didn't know about the "spreadsheet" button, maybe that would've made a difference. But it was just the whole unnecessarily burdensome way to do what should've been simple things. The game made you jump through endless hoops.

Let's say soldier A has a gun. That gun takes (I can't remember exactly) 7.62mm ammo. He's running low. Nobody sells it, at least that you've found yet. Your only choice is to backtrack to that schmuck in the first city (was it called Drassen or something?) or scrounge some. You hear a promising rumor. The shopkeeper in city 3 sells ammo if you do something ridiculous like get a porn tape for a butch lesbian that's bothering him. You fight your way into town, find this tape, get rid of the lesbian, only to find out he doesn't sell the ammo you're short on. Back to scrounging. The guy that needs the ammo doesn't have good lockpicking skills. So he and the rest of the squad stand around while the character that does have this skill methodically works his way through a drab and lifeless series of buildings. Maybe, eventually, he stumbles across a single clip hidden in a medicine cabinet over somebody's toilet. So he now makes his way back to the squad. The guy that's short on ammo doesn't have any room left in his backpack. You sort through it and finally decide you can give a couple of things to soldier B to free up some room. You make this trade, and after 40 minutes and 900 mouse clicks you are now enriched by a single clip of ammo.

I wanted to pull my hair out!!! My God, just sell me some friggin' ammo! I don't care if it's realistic to run short, I don't care if your soldiers should have limited inventories, I don't care if only some should be able to unlock doors, this is torture! Yes, maybe I missed something, yes, maybe I should suck it up and just have soldier A carry a crappy gun, yes, maybe I should've gone to another town, yes maybe a lot of things, but as a player I should've never been put into such a frustrating situation. It's just NOT any fun. And that is only one example of the game's mind-numbing micromanagement overkill. I was waiting for them to put a TU cost on moving your eyeballs or taking each individual breath.

JA, no thank you

Edited March 20, 2014 by dpelectric

JA, no thank you

It sounds like the realism level was just too much for you. That's OK.

I'm the kind of gamer that mods in realistic weapons, lighting, diseases, and must eat, sleep, drink water, keep warm, and set up camp in Skyrim though, so maybe I'm a little over the top. LOL.

You do have to micromanage everything in JA2. The only thing you don't have to worry about is feeding and watering your mercs and diseases. They do give you a lot of help on mechanics but you still have to execute them. I have learned that it's very important to pick weapons that use common ammo or you will be running back to your supply point quite often, but generally, if you pick common ammo (9x19mm, 5.56 mm, 7.62 mm, 12 ga) you can usually find more than you need on your victims. You do have to turn on "drops everything" in the settings though, otherwise you won't find nearly as much stuff on the dead soldiers.

Edited March 20, 2014 by StellarRat

Ammo was never really that much of a problem, you always find some after battles and the lesbian quest is just something you do in the way and take advantage of the merchant while you're in the area. Sometimes you send a couple of guys back to the airport or use a chopper or the ice cream truck or better yet hire some cheap mercs to act as mules. No idea why things got so complicated for you.

You do have to turn on "drops everything" in the settings though, otherwise you won't find nearly as much stuff on the dead soldiers.

Lol, well, I don't think I knew about that, either. Maybe if I would've played JA with all the little tips you've been mentioning, it wouldn't have been such a frustrating experience for me