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Ground Combat Balance Discussion Build V21 Experimental 1!


Chris

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I'm not sure I'd trust the accuracy reduction in gas_gc.xml. Someone (Kabill?) showed that it wasn't actually working; while the accuracy that shows up on screen changes' date=' and the aliens believe there's an accuracy reduction, you could fire through and hit 'em just fine. They'd still fire reaction shots, which would travel through the smoke with normal accuracy, but as long as you were behind enough tiles of smoke for the fake accuracy reduction they wouldn't actively fire.

[/quote']

So, I just did some testing with 4x accuracy modifier for both humans and aliens and put smoke at 50% accuracy reduction. The posted accuracy is correct and you aren't going to hit often at 2-3%, but it is easily exploitable because if you target behind the alien you will most likely hit them.

I did notice something in the update that I do like: the accuracy formula now applies the 95% max cap off after the cover penalty and close combat bonus so having over 95% actual accuracy helps you hit the targets behind cover, which is nice for sniper rifles.

Also, my laser rifles start at 9/12 ammo now, so I'm guessing either my updater missed the weapons.xml or someone changed it in the _gc.xml and forgot the other one.

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-Oh boy, are the shields crap. They should be something like normal 120 and assault 250 or something.

-Alien superhuman accuracy kills all the fun from the game

-Aliens seem also strangely passive again, they just reserve TU's for reaction fire. That combined with the uber accuracy is a deadly combination that doesn't do any favor to this game.

So far the most fun I've had with Xenonauts was V20 stable with Chris' balance patch 2. Aliens were active and it really felt that they tried to kill me. They made mad rushes out of the houses gun blazing and I really needed to be ready to reaction fire. (that worked also like a dream!) Hope we get it back soon...

Edited by Skitso
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-Oh boy, are the shields crap. They should be something like normal 120 and assault 250 or something.

-Alien superhuman accuracy kills all the fun from the game...

Why are we having to deal with Harridans and their sniper rifles of doom in October? With the new super accurate fire it's a bit much. I barely had a few laser rifles and a couple suits of Jackal available. I have to agree with Skitso, the accuracy is over the top in this build. Either the types and weapons of the aliens need to be backed down a notch or accuracy needs reduced (for both sides.) Also, the effect of cover has been reduced too much specially combined with the increased accuracy. It's made using cover not as "smart" as it used to be (aka using good tactics.)

Edited by StellarRat
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-Oh boy, are the shields crap. They should be something like normal 120 and assault 250 or something.

-Alien superhuman accuracy kills all the fun from the game

-Aliens seem also strangely passive again, they just reserve TU's for reaction fire. That combined with the uber accuracy is a deadly combination that doesn't do any favor to this game.

So far the most fun I've had with Xenonauts was V20 stable with Chris' balance patch 2. Aliens were active and it really felt that they tried to kill me. They made mad rushes out of the houses gun blazing and I really needed to be ready to reaction fire. (that worked also like a dream!) Hope we get it back soon...

Very little has changed in balance terms since V20 balance patch 2, combat shield nerf aside. The accuracy levels are identical.

(Just pointing it out because it's occasionally problematic for developers how opinions can change due to perceived differences as much as real ones.)

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So, I just did some testing with 4x accuracy modifier for both humans and aliens and put smoke at 50% accuracy reduction. The posted accuracy is correct and you aren't going to hit often at 2-3%, but it is easily exploitable because if you target behind the alien you will most likely hit them.

If you're shooting at something that isn't the alien you want to hit, your chance of hitting him is reduced by 75%. So even if you had 100% accuracy to the tile behind him, you'd only have a 25% chance of hitting the alien and a 75% chance of hitting the tile (if that makes sense). The accuracy formula was changed specifically to prevent that issue. Is it still happening?

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Very little has changed in balance terms since V20 balance patch 2, combat shield nerf aside. The accuracy levels are identical.

(Just pointing it out because it's occasionally problematic for developers how opinions can change due to perceived differences as much as real ones.)

Could it be some AI changes then? Seems like aliens are reserving for reactions way too much and that combined with super accuracy isn't that fun to be honest.

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Au contraire, I loved it! The initative based system, combined with random stats meant that I was paying attention to my reflex stat a lot more, and you could have cool stuff like bursting into a ufo, pistol in hand blazing away like a Real Action Hero. I'd think it would be super awesome if the initative-based system did make it in, because that in turn leads to modding possiblities like Alien-esque smartguns (with me, it always comes back to the modding).

EDIT: And you can very neatly make things like throwing smoke less attractive by giving it a negative reaction modifier.

EDIT 2: Ah, I can see why Chris wrote that post, I should have written "which feels a lot fairer" after me talking about the initative based system. Le sigh.

Edited by Max_Caine
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I loved the initative based fire. It made a lot more sense to me than the current/old system. I think it also helps the human player more than the aliens. Something we definitely need in this build specially with the Reapers and more deadly aliens.

Are you sure nothing has changed with the alien stats? You told us "Normal" was now "Veteran" and we should be playing Veteran now for testing. Are you sure the all stats were moved from normal to veteran? I could swear that we are seeing more advanced aliens, bigger alien weapons, bigger ships, etc...than I did at the same times on the old "Normal". It seems like the game is progressing much faster on the alien side to me. Also, I'm sure the fact the aliens actually take longer shots now is making a big difference too.

Edited by StellarRat
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Well, basically, you are seeing faster alien geoscape progression on vet than on normal.

The difficulty modifiers can be found in gameconfig.xml, and I've copy/pasted them into a spoiler here in case anyone wants to take a gander. The quick version is that for ground battles, the alien attributes multiplier is x0.8 on normal and x1 on vet (changed from x1 and x1.2 iirc) and alien weapon damage is x0.8 on normal (used to be x1 for everything except easy).

If you want to create your own custom difficulty, you can do that. And if you feel geoscape and ground battles should have their own difficulty selections - so you can play an easy geoscape with insane ground combat or vice versa - I'd back you on that.

<!-- DIFFICULTY MULTIPLIERS -->

<!-- The values for each are multiplied by these numbers -->

<alienTickerSpeedEasy value="0.75" />

<alienTickerSpeedNormal value="1.0" />

<alienTickerSpeedVeteran value="1.2" />

<alienTickerSpeedSuperhuman value="1.5" />

<ufoHealthEasy value="0.75" />

<ufoHealthNormal value="1.0" />

<ufoHealthVeteran value="1.0" />

<ufoHealthSuperhuman value="1.0" />

<alienAttributeEasy value="0.6" />

<alienAttributeNormal value="0.8" />

<alienAttributeVeteran value="1.0" />

<alienAttributeSuperhuman value="1.25" />

<alienWeaponDamageEasy value="0.6" />

<alienWeaponDamageNormal value="0.8" />

<alienWeaponDamageVeteran value="1.0" />

<alienWeaponDamageSuperhuman value="1.0" />

<!-- LOST CONTINENTS LIMIT -->

<!-- Game ends if more than this continents (depending on difficulty setting) are lost to aliens -->

<lostContinentsLimit>

<Easy value="7" />

<Normal value="6" />

<Veteran value="5" />

<Insane value="4" />

</lostContinentsLimit>

---

I honestly think the temporary absence of the initiative system is what's causing a lot of unhappiness in ground combat. Alien reaction shots, shields, these are all to do with scouting and assaulting. The sooner it comes back, the better. No pressure, ha ha. Ha.

Edited by Ol' Stinky
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Well' date=' basically, you [i']are[/i] seeing faster alien geoscape progression on vet than on normal.

I honestly think the temporary absence of the initiative system is what's causing a lot of unhappiness in ground combat. Alien reaction shots, shields, these are all to do with scouting and assaulting. The sooner it comes back, the better. No pressure, ha ha. Ha.

Well, thank God (or you) that someone actually answered my question.

Chris, is this the way it's going to stay? If that's the case, I think your "play at Veteran to test" recommendation is not right or you need to back the progression down in Veteran to what it was at "Normal".

No wonder I was so confused!

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Most of what I'm saying here applies to the first V21 though I did just do a few normal missions and take an alien base in V21 experimental 2.

Aliens I'm finding are back to being too passive in this build (I mean all of V21 inculding this new balance patch) compared to what I heard they were like in V20 with Hotfix 2 (I never tried V20 with the hotfixes). Their accuracy is far better and their reaction shots are consistenly lethal but they just don't move.

I played through a 'storming an alien base' mission and almost all of the androns were extremely passive. The last 2 androns, one of which was their leader (the purple one) literally just stood in the corner of the room and didn't budge an inch up til they were killed.

Yesterday I also had the aliens attack my base and I was a bit worried on account of only having 6 people at the base since my main 8 were off on a mission and I hadn't thought to equip them well as I didn't even consider getting attacked in October but after setting up my dudes and waiting for the attack 20 or so turns latter they never arrived so I had to go hunt them down and they were all just mingling in the medical ward next to their entry point.

Maybe aliens are more intelligent now since it's a wise idea if you're going to be camping in a room for 2 years to stay in ones with beds and medical supplies but I've got a sneaking suspicion they weren't playing the long game they were just idiots.

Anyway a few of them advanced a little bit after I'd been shooting at them for several turns but they mostly just stayed put letting me snipe and rocket them all which I'm going to do in bad situation even though it feels cheap since there's almost no counter to it due to them refusing to push forward but the alternative is stepping forward - boom boom reaction fire dead so you're pretty much forced into it...

....though to be honest I'd probably still snipe either way since even if something feels cheap I'll do it if it's the best thing to do, I abuse door open/closing too, I don't like it and think alien doors shouldn't be closeable and/or that aliens should get reaction shots on doors triggering but if it's in the game I think it's fair to utilise it unless it's clearly a bug and not a design choice.

So yeh all in all I don't mind the alien accuracy (though that could change vs more aggressive aliens) but the aliens are still way too passive for the most part and are sometimes nothing more than turrets in base missions.

PS: Does anyone know if you can actually be attacked and lose your base in an instant while your soldiers are off doing a mission?

I hope so even though that would very nasty for new players who may not even be aware their base could be attacked but if aliens only attack when there are people there to defend you could quite easily abuse that hovering your dudes around your base when you've only got 8 or less people to potentially defend. Knowing aliens could wipe the base while you're gone gives a good incentive to train up more dudes and give's you more to do/worry about.

Edited by Mutton
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PS: Does anyone know if you can actually be attacked and lose your base in an instant while your soldiers are off doing a mission?

I hope so even though that would very nasty for new players who may not even be aware their base could be attacked but if aliens only attack when there are people there to defend you could quite easily abuse that hovering your dudes around your base when you've only got 8 or less people to potentially defend. Knowing aliens could wipe the base while you're gone gives a good incentive to train up more dudes and give's you more to do/worry about.

They can attack when the chinook's out, but I had a few wounded soldiers back at base, so I don't know if it skips to base destruction or not. I don't see why it wouldn't.

I'm thinking base attacks should probably be telegraphed because they can end the game in one fight. Let's face it, no-one's probably going to recover from a destroyed main base. Then again, I might be biased because it happened to me. ):

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They can attack when the chinook's out' date=' but I had a few wounded soldiers back at base, so I don't know if it skips to base destruction or not. I don't see why it wouldn't.

I'm thinking base attacks should probably be telegraphed because they can end the game in one fight. Let's face it, no-one's probably going to recover from a destroyed main base. Then again, I might be biased because it happened to me. ):[/quote']

One thing I've considered is to bring up the squad inventory screen when base invasions start so that the player can choose the soldiers to fight (So the player can opt to use a healthy rookie over a heavily wounded vet) and tweak their loadout prior to the start of the combat. This would cut down on the tedium of having to constantly tweak the loadouts of inactive soldiers, but you'd still be vulnerable to attacks while your core team is out. I'm not quite sure how I feel about announcing attacks, though, despite having my base attacked once in a similar situation (Seven underarmed and armorless defenders).

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If you're shooting at something that isn't the alien you want to hit, your chance of hitting him is reduced by 75%. So even if you had 100% accuracy to the tile behind him, you'd only have a 25% chance of hitting the alien and a 75% chance of hitting the tile (if that makes sense). The accuracy formula was changed specifically to prevent that issue. Is it still happening?

The thing is I have a 1% chance of hitting any given object in the room because of the smoke accuracy loss. But, if I target a square with my 1% hit chance behind an alien I then have a 75% of my accuracy chance to hit the alien.

Although, if you are intending to have a 25% of your accuracy chance of hitting a target instead of the tile, it appears that the NoTargetPenalty in the config.xml should be set to 0.25 instead of 0.75. I was wondering what that property did and decided to check it out when you mentioned the 75% chance which didn't sound right at all from accuracy numbers I had been seeing and swapped it to 0.25 and now the numbers look right.

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One thing I've considered is to bring up the squad inventory screen when base invasions start so that the player can choose the soldiers to fight (So the player can opt to use a healthy rookie over a heavily wounded vet) and tweak their loadout prior to the start of the combat. This would cut down on the tedium of having to constantly tweak the loadouts of inactive soldiers, but you'd still be vulnerable to attacks while your core team is out. I'm not quite sure how I feel about announcing attacks, though, despite having my base attacked once in a similar situation (Seven underarmed and armorless defenders).

I agree about having a prep screen for base attacks.

It'd be infuriating to a new player if their base got completely wiped out so unexpectedly. How about this compromise: aliens will make a bee-line for your base on easy and normal, even generating an alert of some kind, but on veteran and insane the aliens are as sneaky as they are currently.

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