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Geoscape Balance Discussion V20 Experimental 4


Aaron

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The current balancing pretty much forces you to research in certain path, at least on higher difficulties. Getting to lasers and upgraded fighter craft took me a long time, which leads into a spiral of doom: you are unable to shoot down most UFOs, you lose funding. Trying to counter the enemy air superiority by spending in additional bases with fighter craft will effectively sabotage your progress as you won't have the money to hire more scientists.

Now, the original was also like this to an extent. I'm sure by playing it "smart" the game experience will be radically different. Still wish there wasn't such a huge difference depending on what initial techs your research.

Also, the base defences are essentially useless. Two lasers get the landing ships to what, 83%? On the other hand, the aliens never attack your defenceless satellite bases.

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Damage caused by base defences should also injure/kill the aliens inside the invading craft. Have you not seen a difference in crew size between non-damaged and a damaged (by base defences) UFO?

UI Suggestion: The amount of damage caused by base defences is listed. Could the degree of harm caused to the crew be listed as well? It doesn't have to be class-specific, but something like "light casualities among invaders" or "5 casualties among invaders" - something along those lines to indicate that base defences are doing something other that damaging the UFO.

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The current balancing pretty much forces you to research in certain path, at least on higher difficulties...
Good games usually have many possible paths to victory. That keeps them fresh and replayable. A great example is Civilization which has four distinct and equal victory conditions (Cultural, Diplomatic, Conquest, and Technology) and many, many ways to achieve any of them. I will admit that I haven't got far enough into any game so far to tell if I'm on the right path because usually a bug or new release derails me and I'm going to save playing through final scenario for the full release. As far as forcing a player down a certain path: If it's true the balance needs to tweaked somehow so that isn't happening, IMO, but I haven't gotten far enough in any game to judge whether or not that is in fact the case for me anyway. Edited by StellarRat
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Two laser batteries (assuming both hit) would get a landing ship down to 62.5%, which should kill about a third of the assaulting crew. It takes around 7 batteries to have a reasonable chance of killing an assaulting UFO.

The air combat is in a weird place where if you're good at it, it's completely viable to go pure Condor and then transition to Marauders once you unlock them (I'm not actually sure if it's possible to consistently beat Interceptors with Condors, even with the current free weapon upgrades). This frees up a ton of money because Condors are stupidly cost effective. But if you're not good at the air combat it's extremely punishing.

Max, that's a great suggestion.

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Damage caused by base defences should also injure/kill the aliens inside the invading craft. Have you not seen a difference in crew size between non-damaged and a damaged (by base defences) UFO?

UI Suggestion: The amount of damage caused by base defences is listed. Could the degree of harm caused to the crew be listed as well? It doesn't have to be class-specific, but something like "light casualities among invaders" or "5 casualties among invaders" - something along those lines to indicate that base defences are doing something other that damaging the UFO.

While interesting information how is it helpful to game play? You'll have to deal with whatever size assault force gets inside your base anyway, right?
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Landing ship and cruiser missions are still way too valuable to bomb, especially if I want to expand quickly.

More bases + more interceptors = more coverage + better rating = more money + more funding = win.

With 6 bases and a total of 22 interceptors, a lucky wave that hits all over the place can net me over a $million in missions and airstrikes, or about 1/3 that if I just do airstrikes. That's roughly a difference between replacing another Condor with a Corsair and building another base with 2xcondors+foxtrot.

I don't think it's right. Expansion is too easy and too profitable. There is too little risk involved, since aliens don't seem to attack satellite bases. And even if they did, the attack is a rare, all-or-nothing event which I can't do much about other than shooting down the attack craft. I think these would keep me from expanding too fast:

  1. Reintroduce the need to build new airplane weapons first
  2. Introduce need to produce researched missiles
  3. Make alien attacks on bases more frequent, introduce bombing raids against bases, possibly other sabotage
  4. (optionally) make base defense batteries fire upon UFOs in a small area around the base

The first two would mean more logistics involved in setting up a new base, as I'd need to produce the new equipment (should be quick and cheap) and send it to each new base, meaning it would need to have a place to store the equipment, then I'd also need to keep them supplied with missiles (or produce ammo on site).

The third and fourth points would give some more meaning to AAA batteries in a base.

Right now they either stop an invasion or don't (usually the latter), and then it's up to the soldiers at the base... Who are either not there or are just a bunch of rookies kept on site for exactly that kind of situation. I can't recall one time these guys had up to date equipment and much training, so any assault that gets through meager defenses will wipe them out anyway.

If I was to keep a solid base-defense force an each base, that would mean both manufacturing their gear, which is costly and requires me to do more missions than intended, and train then so they at least have around 70TUs, which also means doing plenty of missions to train future base defense forces.

I can think of three meaningful types of non-final attacks on xenonaut bases:

  1. Bombing
  2. Jamming communications
  3. Suppressing launches

1. Bombing would damage random base structures. Damaged structures would need between 1day to 50% their build time to repair.

  • labs/workshops stop their participation in current projects (calculated part of all project, round down)
  • storage denies access to items if all storage rooms were hit (current workshop projects continue, next must wait)
  • living quarters reduce living space, excess scientists/engineers are made unavailable, soldiers stay available
  • other facilities cease to function when bombed, eg. hangars can't launch craft, radars/defense batteries stop working

2.Jamming comms would make the radars stop working. After it stops (ufo leaves or shot down) it takes 1day to fix them.

3.Suppression makes launching craft impossible. Basically bombs missing main base but too close to launch craft.

All of these leave the player at a disadvantage they can easily recover from, and don't require keeping a solid base defense force at every site. Also these could serve as an indicator the aliens are about to hit a particular base, giving some time to prepare.

tl;dr expansion is too easy, doing missions is too profitable compared to airstrikes, yet it doesn't seem like we have mechanics that could address this at this point. I suggest adding something between not attacking player bases and attacking and destroying them, so attacks can happen more often. This would make maintaining remote bases harder and reduce pressure to expand quickly.

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I think I'll buff the defensive turrets a bit - I'll try increasing their strength by 50%. If they fail to destroy the UFO, the attacking force is reduced by half of the damage taken. So a UFO that takes 60% damage loses 30% of its crew (this prevents there being attacking missions with only a handful of aliens in it).

Ideally, the player shouldn't need more than 4 defence batteries in their bases to defend them. Five if they're behind in tech.

I guess the turrets might need a strength boost of more like 100% instead of 50%, actually...

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I think I'll buff the defensive turrets a bit - I'll try increasing their strength by 50%. If they fail to destroy the UFO, the attacking force is reduced by half of the damage taken. So a UFO that takes 60% damage loses 30% of its crew (this prevents there being attacking missions with only a handful of aliens in it).

Ideally, the player shouldn't need more than 4 defence batteries in their bases to defend them. Five if they're behind in tech.

I guess the turrets might need a strength boost of more like 100% instead of 50%, actually...

Shouldn't there always be a chance an assault might get through? I mean, if 4-5 turrets guarantees victory then base defense scenarios become irrelevent, right?
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The air combat is in a weird place where if you're good at it, it's completely viable to go pure Condor and then transition to Marauders once you unlock them (I'm not actually sure if it's possible to consistently beat Interceptors with Condors, even with the current free weapon upgrades). This frees up a ton of money because Condors are stupidly cost effective. But if you're not good at the air combat it's extremely punishing.

To be completely honest, I never quite bothered with the air combat. If you try auto-resolving all combats, even your end game craft with the plasma tech will get destroyed. Frankly I'd much rather remove the player participation from air combat completely and replace it with pilots whose skill improves (yes, this was discussed and I know it isn't going to happen). I'd have more fun juggling fighter aces and trying to keep them alive (rescue missions for downed aircraft in alien territory anyone?) than bothering with the air combat minigame for every damn UFO (UFO #150 on my current game...).

Auto resolve needs a boost, I am pretty certain a lot of people will be doing the same as I did. Player should we able to win in more desperate situations than the auto resolve AI, but the AI shouldn't be losing as much as it does.

Though the initial attempts at downing alien aircraft should be pretty desperate deal IMHO, with aliens shredding your fighters apart until you catch up to them in tech.

Now, regarding the satellite bases... Maybe there could be some other events that'd force the player to develop other bases as well? Like research accidents suspending your research capability, alien saboteurs killing your researchers etc. In this particular case carrot probably won't be viable.

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I always thought the feel of the early game air combat was spot on. You have to outnumber even a "light scout" 2 to 1 to come off with minimal damage. Very desperate feeling, but not too crazy. Haven't played past the first month though due to bugs so I can't comment on late game air balance. But imo early game is right where it should be.

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Defence turrets only have an 80% chance to hit. What I'm actually going to do is double their power and reduce their chance to hit down to 60%. This gives them an average boost in power of 50%, but if they all land hits then they'll be much more powerful than before.

Regarding excessive base expansion - maybe we'll increase the upkeep of the Command Center significantly. It's currently $25,000 per month but if that was increased to $250k or $500k then expansion becomes much more expensive.

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@StellarRat

The gameplay value of showing some indication of damage to the invasion force is twofold.

1) Firstly, it reassures the player they haven't wasted money on defences. As evidence, I can point to Haba, namely:

Also, the base defences are essentially useless. Two lasers get the landing ships to what, 83%?

Judging from the post (and Haba, please forgive me if I have misunderstood), all Haba knows is that defences don't do enough damage to an invasion craft to destroy it. Ergo, defences are useless. To use marketing terms, the player need post-purchase assurance that he hasn't bought a lemon. Or said player is highly unlikely to buy more defences, and post in scathing terms exactly what he thinks of base defences.

2) Secondly, it helps to judge the size of alien forces.

After several base invasions, the player is likely to start to form an idea of how many of what type he's going to face. This knowledge is inherant to someone who will do the same map (the base) more than once. With that learned knowledge, knowing that there are fewer crew members helps the player to judge how widely he should spread to locate ground teams, and how many there are likely to be in any team.

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Regarding excessive base expansion - maybe we'll increase the upkeep of the Command Center significantly. It's currently $25,000 per month but if that was increased to $250k or $500k then expansion becomes much more expensive.

Woah!

That sounds like 2-3 base max for gameplay.

Keeping in mind you cannot re-deploy the bases, I find this intresting.

4 base would be pretty ideal assuming the later aircrafts could fly far enough.

I gotta say that the aircrafts are also very expensive to upkeep! (the later ones atleast)

If this is implemented is it possible to build cheap radar only bases mayhaps?

Additional missions could be fun to clear out radar site to get it online again :)

Personally I liked the possibility to try to defend the entire world.

I assume the majority of players will try to play with 1 mainbase

and trying to build that base as good as possible.

In addition I think huge majority of players will be casual easy/medium difficulty players.

I have to say that when you change the difficulty to veteran or even harder

doing every mission sounds alot like luxery option.

The base cost upgrade could change the already hard difficult settings more extreme.

Losing a soldier becomes alot more easier and just single shots kills.

In general currently, you have to survive ~10 missions the get somewhat usable soldier.

I am sure you guys will choose the best of settings for the gameplay

but just wanted to say that I liked the balance. Surely tweaking it don't hurt.

Most of the gameplay is learning and I find it easy for new players to choose harder path instead of ideal.

Also in response for the 6base "is too easy" here is 14minutes video of my later gameplay on medium difficulty.

I personally have to say I strugled with the finance to keep all this up.

Gameplay was v19 stable and airstrikes were not available.

Also I had played most of the missions like hardcore fan would :)

I found the gameplay to be very entertaining, what I assume majority of casual players would expect.

In addition I would like to say that I did not afford to have any base defences to keep this all up!

Only one of my bases (other than mainbase) had 8man squad in order to fight back.

_All of my defences_ relied simply air defence, making this risky move.

After I got to this point of game, I was feeling quite victorious, but nonetheless quite a hard work to set it up. In addition I feel that this way of playing felt very comfortable, as personally I hated doing terror missions and alien base mission all the time. Avoiding them was slighty easier and because the game had opportunities to play it diffrently, I liked it more.

Edited by Tascruel
added link to 6 base setup
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Judging from the post (and Haba, please forgive me if I have misunderstood), all Haba knows is that defences don't do enough damage to an invasion craft to destroy it. Ergo, defences are useless.

Yup. After the eleventh base defence mission I started wondering why the aliens don't simply bomb the base instead of sending crews in...

Regarding the base costs, I think it'd be better if satellite bases were also at risk of attack. The costs of having to build defences and maintain several combat teams would do the same job better.

Also instead of having a straight increase in costs, maybe have each base raise the maintenance cost progressively? Not being able to afford the second or third base would be pretty fatal for several play styles.

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Regarding base defense scenarios, how do vehicles work at Xenonaut bases?

  1. Can I use them for base defense?
  2. How many can I use at once?
  3. Do they work with no soldiers present at the base?
  4. Do they have upkeep costs? (can't recall, don't use them in missions)

I never tried it, but in theory, a garage full of tanks takes only one square and might have a better chance of fending off an alien attack than a defense battery.

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1. Vehicles are present for base defense.

2. As many as you can cram into the hanger (3)? Seeing as how a base defense mission pretty much calls up every available trooper for battle, I don't see why all three vehicles (if you have them) wouldn't be used.

3. Probably not...it didn't work that way back in X-COM 93 either.

4. Once you purchase a vehicle, they don't have an upkeep. They're just another "solder" so to speak...

Anyways, isn't the whole shpeel with base defenses about heavily damaging the alien assault force before they breach the base (if the ship isn't shot down)? That way, even if the ship survives to drop off the invaders, they've been harmed while flying in.

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What about this:

Keep command centers as they are, because cheap throwaway radar posts are nice, and you're giving us 8 bases anyway which implies that it should be possible to build that many before the game is over.

Defense batteries are made 2x2 instead of 1x1 (still using the 1x1 square artwork and level layouts, just add some black space for padding), they have a high cost + VERY high maintenance, and they ALWAYS hit, dealing a variable amount of damage (70% to 130%). You make option to upgrade your base defenses, because better defenses cost more in maintenance.

Instead of damaging the ship, though, the damage is spread across the attacking aliens. The class of alien ship will reduce the damage by a certain percentage, so you will need better defenses to protect from the more imposing landing craft.

Essentially, instead of rolling the dice, buying a defense battery is now buying an insurance policy. The dice rolling is done at the geoscape level, for if you decide to leave an installation unguarded, because defense batteries are now so expensive (and large) that you cannot afford to build half a dozen of them at each base and live alien-free.

Example Calculation

We want each defense battery to damage an alien by an average of 25% after all is said and done (expected damage = ED = 25%). You would expect the player to have 2 defense batteries at his main base.

Assume aliens all have 100% health in their ship, and the ship protects them by a constant percentage from each battery hit (ship shielding = SS = x%). Note that each calculation is applied PER alien, and that each battery ALWAYS hits and the damage is applied as a percentage of the aliens MAXIMUM health.

So each battery level is paired with an equivalent alien ship type, and then ED/(100-SS) = how much damage each battery should deal as a percentage of the alien's max health.

Corvettes reduce battery damage by 50% (i.e., to 50% of nominal battery damage output). They match rocket tech, so rocket defenses must have a damage value to 50% of that of an alien. (25% /50% = 50%).

Landingships reduce damage by 60% (i.e., to 40% of nominal battery damage output). They match laser tech, so laser defenses have a damage value to 62.5% of that of an alien. (25%/40% = 62.5%)

Cruisers by 70%, Carriers by 80% (average 75%, match plasma tech), 25%/(100%-25%) => 100%

and Battleships by 90%, match MAG tech (25%/100%-90%) = 250%

That leaves us with the table...

Ship Type_______Tech Match_____Shielding Score (SS) in % of alien max health

Corvette________Rockets________50

Landingship_____Laser__________60

Cruiser_________Plasma_________70

Carrier_________Plasma_________80

Battleship______MAG____________90

Base Defense____________Raw Damage (RD) in % of alien max health

Rockets_________________50

Laser___________________62.5

Plasma__________________100

Mag_____________________250

Which we can use to calculate expected damages for unpaired technologies using the formula RD * (100-SS)

First the extremes:

Rocket Defense vs Battleship

50% * (100-90)% = 5%... so each alien is damaged (tickled, rather) on average by 5% per rocket battery.

Mag Defense vs Corvette

250% * (100-50)% = 125% ... so each alien is torn to shreds

And all the other combos

Ship Type.............Defense............ED (% of alien max health)

CV....................R..................25

CV....................L..................31.25

CV....................P..................50

CV....................M..................125

LS....................R..................20

LS....................L..................25

LS....................P..................40

LS....................M..................100

CR....................R..................15

CR....................L..................43.75

CR....................P..................30

CR....................M..................75

CA....................R..................10

CA....................L..................12.5

CA....................P..................20

CA....................M..................50

BS....................R..................5

BS....................L..................6.25

BS....................P..................10

BS....................M..................25

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