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My long, wordy suggestions on: equipment variety, troops, and the Cold War's effects


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I apologize to you, the reader, in advance. In lieu of breaking this into separate threads, I've made a single long one, which I'll do my best to roadmap and signpost for your sake. I've also bolded tangential suggestions and off-handed things that might be missed, but are suggestions nonetheless. Here goes.

--Recruitment Expansion and Impacts--

The one thing that has bothered me in both XCOM and Xenonauts is the sheer...pointlessness of the soldiers' backstories. Whether the fresh meat is Spetsnaz Alfa Group or a New York taxi driver, they both suck equally badly in their first operation. I know that's because the soldiers' backstories are (at the moment, anyway) just flavor text, something to make the soldier management screen more interesting. My question: why is that so? Why don't combat experience and current occupation have an actual effect on the quality of the troops we're bringing in?

The first and most obvious answer is balancing: given the choice between a regular old infantryman and a Navy SEAL, what would make me ever want a grunt over a professional badass like a SEAL?

My response: their current bosses are saying the same thing, ya know. At the moment, everyone on your roster is ex-special forces. We're in the middle of the First Inter-World War here, who in the human resources department of the Pentagon is letting all these commandos seek better employment opportunities elsewhere right now? Given how many black-ops types were recalled into active service following 9/11, you can better believe everyone who doesn't have great-grandkids will be brought back into service when the alien armada shows up.

Therefore, every distinguished recruit should be a fight to get. The national reputation thing, at the moment, only goes for funding and membership...but obviously a nation that thinks you don't care about it will be less enthusiastic with its employee roster than a nation whose capital you just saved from a terror attack. The better you treat a country, the more likely it is to offer up its best and brightest, plain and simple. Plus, it should go without saying that hiring better troops would cost more than hiring mediocre ones. You wanna save money? Go for the dishonorable discharges and the conscripts. You wanna save lives? Go for the Delta Force and the SAS.

At the moment, because I roleplay this game, hiring is actually more dependent on the person's name than any other factor...I try as hard as I can to only let Warsaw Pact troops into my USSR facility (damn West Germans, having the same-sounding names as their Commie brethren on the other side of the Wall).

Plus, the biggest thing of all...combat experience. I haven't noticed it having any effect on troops' behavior, maybe there's a slight correlational/causational thing in terms of their stats, but I feel like any combat experience would make a world of difference. Even if aliens are fundamentally different fighters than humans, the US Army is a fundamentally different enemy than rival warlords, but that type of prior experience gave our guerilla rivals the basic skills to fight against us.

No amount of training or prestigious postings can completely substitute for the feelings of being in combat. It's all psychological; you can't train a person to function at 100% when the bullets...lasers...plasma...deadly things are flying. It comes with exposure to all those elements. If you've faced death like that before, you know how better to do it again, regardless of whether you're up against the Viet Cong again or lizard people.

(Plus, I always have my Soviet troops who served in Afghanistan mow down the mujahideen in the Middle East as a matter of principle. Negative PR be damned.)

(Also, I think it would be an interesting little touch to have some of these super-secretive organizations, like Delta Force, SEALs, and Alfa Group, list combat experience as [REDACTED]. Just a small suggestion.)

--The Cold War--

Speaking of which, let's discuss the Cold War. Right now its only implications are in the Iceland write-up (good work on that, by the way, XCOM sure doesn't have much backstory other than a bunch of world leaders sitting around saying 'hey what if there are are aliens guys!' and then spending billions on the off chance Battle: Los Angeles just so happens to come true...that's probably why they never show their faces, so you don't find out who's enough of a crackpotvisionary to have set this up beforehand).

Anyway, it's the Cold War. If one looks back at UFO sightings from 1960 to 1990, the go-to rationalization for what was seen is "experimental enemy aircraft". Now there ARE aliens, to be fair, but the element of blame towards the other side seems to vanish remarkably fast. Even if it becomes clear rather fast that the lizard people in the flying saucers aren't just KGB operatives in funny costumes (never thought I'd say that sentence until now), the lingering suspicion that the other side is involved would remain, especially for the conspiracy theorists who were already speculating that one or both sides were colluding with extraterrestrials.

It wouldn't take much to make one side of the Iron Curtain suspect you of being overly partial to the other. I always make my first base the real-world Soviet testing site (and the Russkie Roswell) Kapustin Yar. Responding to breaches of Soviet airspace exclusively from a state airbase using mostly WarPac troops (again, I recruit in-universe) would piss off NATO to no end, and this is somewhat reflected in the funding. But it could go further.

Check the "Fickle World Leaders" box, and get ready to deal with politics while you try to save the world and unite humanity. Save Moscow and neglect the UFO over NORAD? Commie. Down the UFO and let Moscow burn? Pig-dog imperialist swine. You'd have to appease both sides if you wanted to keep them working together, and there would still be the crazies on both sides who claimed this alien invasion was all part of some diabolical plan. If you can't quite grasp it, here's a thought exercise...you're watching Glenn Beck on FOX News, and the headline is "Foreign Troops With Alien Technology Spotted on US Soil...Hours After Alien Attack. Combatants or Collaborators?"

Not to mention just how awkward it would be in the barracks if all but three of your guys are East German, Soviet, Czech, or Polish. Especially if that barracks happens to be in the heart of the Russian steppes. How to implement this well is rather beyond me at the moment; the one game I've seen try to do something in this vein is Zafehouse: Diaries, and in my opinion the prejudice system went a bit too far and became a gimmick rather than a mechanic. But the fact remains that even if the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it takes more than the Greys showing up to break down the barriers of ideology, race, class, gender, and languages and make all the soldiers of the world suspiciously homogenous and interchangeable on the battlefield.

--National Militaries and Expanded Roles for Them--

Another point is that if one cooperates with the national governments, they might be willing to chip in more than just a quarter million dollars every month. The BIGGEST thing that I HATE about the XCOM setting is that we are the ONLY people competent enough to do ANYTHING. It seems like, even though at the beginning of the game we have essentially the same stuff as anyone else, nobody can even touch the aliens but us. Other than the "local forces have shot down a UFO and are requesting Xenonaut assistance in securing it" event (speaking of which, I thought they said "assist", not "go take over that UFO while we wait off-map". I've seen ONE soldier in-game, and he ran away faster than a redneck with a shotgun did.

We are the unified command against the alien menace. Why can't we propose joint operations with the host nation? The F-17 is, after all, the F-16 with some modifications. Why can't we call up the USAF and ask for two F-16s to support our three fighters against the huge alien space ship, when it's obvious that those two could make a world of difference? Sure, it could break the game if it isn't balanced right. Doubling your squadron size for free is a dangerous line for this game to toe, but it's breaking the realism to expect me to believe my planes are the only ones on the continent.

Maybe in addition the the "autoresolve" feature, one could be made to pass on the radar contact to the nation's air force, who would have a lower chance of success than either manual or automatic combat resolution by your specialized jets. And if too many are lost, the air force would be understandably hesitant to cover for you. Not to mention the fact that if their airbases are attacked and destroyed those jets would be off the table, so you'd have to fight an uphill battle in order to defend those assets from a concentrated and high-powered enemy air and ground offensive.

Plus, I think the Army Special Forces model of warfare could come into play here as well. We can send our new recruits to train for ten days to get better at fighting aliens, why can't we send our seasoned veterans to train the local military in what they've learned? You'd lose those troops/pilots for an extended period of time, even longer than the crash-course rookie training, but at the end of those two or three weeks you'd have more competent locals who could down enemy UFOs more often, appear more often and fight more effectively on the ground, improve your reputation with their nation's government, and overall make your life easier. Again, this all ties back to the exceptionalism issue endemic to XCOM-style games; your combat troops and interceptor jets number in the double-digits, but somehow YOUR soldiers alone are all that stands between the world and its invaders. You know, not those huge militaries sitting on both sides of the Wall ready to steamroll each other. They're magically incompetent.

--Expanded Equipment Options--

--Weaponry--

Before I begin, I know, the suggestion has been made before. But I believe there is further merit to the idea than our friend Cold brought up, which I'll discuss here.

I understand the purpose of the unified human arsenal, since the Xenonaut organization (I get the soldiers are called xenonauts, but is the agency called "Xenonauts"? I don't know what the proper term is...just putting it out there, if someone could help me out here) is supposed to be a multinational group that brings together all the soldiers of the world (minus representatives of Central America, South America, Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and Australia, I might point out), but since all the soldiers we hire are trained with different weapons, there would and should be impacts in combat based on what they are using at the moment.

I can't quite go with the idea that a former VDV air landing trooper based in the USSR is using an M16A1 as his first choice of weapon, and I also can't imagine any reason he shouldn't get his first choice. Sure, it's practical reasons and nothing in-universe, but I think it would add more to the game than it would take in terms of work. First off, it wouldn't take too much; as noted before, the only serious changes that would need to happen would be reskinning. At present, you have six human weapons; M16A1 assault rifle, Beretta M9 pistol, Mossberg 500 shotgun, G3SG1 precision rifle, M240 machine gun, and SMAW/B300 rocket launcher (which hadn't been produced in 1979, but I'm not going to explode on y'all about it, just make that bad pun about it and move on). You also have all the files necessary for the AKM (except the weapon panel pic, by the way, which I assume you guys know about and are fixing, but I mention it on the off-chance it hasn't been caught yet) carried by the mujahideen in Middle East operations, and not magically transmogrified into an M16 when picked up by Xenonauts like I expected. This can go as far as you wish. You have seven and need only four at the moment...you have:

M16A1

AKM

M9

Mossberg 500

M240

SMAW

G3SG1

Now, all you would need is:

Makarov PM

PKM

RPG-7

SVD

Notably missing from that is a shotgun; the USSR did not field shotguns with its military forces, and the only issued Russian military shotgun today, the Saiga-12, was not developed until 1995. Therefore, the Mossberg 500 would be acceptable instead of going out of one's way to find an obscure Soviet counterpart that would in reality be more inaccurate than just giving them common Western shotguns.

The reason this is so important, in my opinion, comes down to your troops in the field. They are elite soldiers who have field stripped their issued weapon more times than you've opened your microwave. They've been trained day in and day out on the weapons their lives will depend on more times than they're officially authorized to say. Why, in the moment of crisis where every advantage humanity can get counts, would you make them switch out?

There would obviously be a penalty for a Czech paratrooper used to the PKM using an M240 for the first time in his life. Likewise, an American paratrooper used to an M16A1 would take a while to adapt to an AK. Issuing your troops what they're best with is an obvious bit of management of the type this game seeks to encourage; we read over accuracy and strength stats to determine whether or not this soldier should have a precision rifle or a machine gun; it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to give the RIGHT KIND of weapon too.

Base location would determine avaliabilty, as well. My base at Kapustin Yar would have endless AKs, but to have M16s they'd have to be sent for from my base over at Cheyenne Mountain, and vice versa. Bonuses are derived from familiar guns, detriments from foreign ones, and those detriments stay until proper battle experience or training is obtained (needless to say alien guns are foreign).

--Uniforms--

One final thing that bothers me; uniforms. The Xenopedia provides a pretty reasonable justification, to be fair; stuff like "we didn't use camouflage because we don't know if the aliens see like us" and "we left out bulletproof vests because aliens don't use bullets." Two things:

1) Aliens don't use bullets, but we certainly do. At the beginning of the campaign, easily 30% of my casualties came from friendly fire (bolded for contrast: On a tangentially related note, can we please have more detailed reaction-fire tools? Like, I don't know, "Don't endanger our own troops" like Fallout 2's follower settings? I've lost civilians, teammates, and subdued alien POWs each at least once because some dumbass with an MG got twitchy with it, and I only accept 80% or so of the blame for that, devs. Also, to go on a tangent from that tangent, currently the armed locals fire on stunned aliens like they're still threats. I've had to beat down a farmer with a riot baton so he would stop shooting at a specimen, if he hadn't been such a useless fighter I would have lost it. I doubt that's intentional on your part, so could we fix that, please? )

Anyway, to come back from that tangent and its sub-tangent, I don't think the game should tell me I can't give my soldiers regular body armor if it DOESN'T tell me I CAN'T equip them with exclusively riot batons and C4 like they're some kind of hobo-camp-demolition task force. Sure, it won't stop alien projectiles, but it might cut down on the deaths from friendly fire. Yeah, cue the comments on "you have friendly fire issues, you noob? Play the game better!" But if you ask me, I'd much rather have the opportunity to give my soldiers body armor to better protect them from one another than lose so much as a single lieutenant to an improbably inaccurate sniper shot.

Also, on the camouflage issue, this is the bottom of my wish list for a reason...it's a lot of work for mostly just cosmetic and AI behavior purposes, and I understand prioritizing will likely cut it from the list. But even IF the aliens don't see color and shapes like we do, we still see them the same. And social psychology means that soldiers dressed to look the part will boost the morale of local forces better than guys dressed like half-cop half-construction-workers (I don't mean any offense, but at present the artwork for the basic steel helmet looks more like a hard hat than anything else. Could you touch it up to look more along the lines of the American M1 steel helmet, the Soviet SSH68, or something else that looks more military?)

The blue implies police. Camo, or even just olive drab, implies military. Another slight pet peeve of mine, which you will likely not have thought of until I mention it (because I'm a detail asshole), is that Xenonauts fight in the same uniforms regardless of whether they're in the desert or the Arctic. Somebody's going to die of hypothermia or sunstroke in that situation. I'm not saying we have to go and pick "SUMMER UNIFORM" or "COLD WEATHER UNIFORM" or our troops get -5 to TU from slowly freezing to death, but it would be a nice touch in a game that is all about the little things if our troops wore heavy clothes like the Arctic civvies and light ones like the farmland civvies when appropriate. We could have national military uniforms for greater immersion, pick Soviet ones to have Soviet local troops follow you and US ones for NATO ones to follow you, and using the wrong one could precipitate WWIII out of paranoia or greater cooperation out of appreciation, but that might be a bit too hard, and I'll acknowledge it. But, like all suggestions, it falls down to an issue of cool new features versus workload.

So, if any of these appeal to you the reader, do me a favor and say so. If you disagree, say why. I wrote an ass-load of stuff, and TL;DR is pretty much excusable, but I think some of the stuff I said are valid ideas.

EDIT:

Just noticed the Solidarnosc poster in the personnel management screen. Gee, that must be awkward for my Soviet base commander. Nice touch, though.

Edited by Jebediah
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To respond to those where I have a strong opinion or information:

Cold war: I think that there was a geo-political mod going on in the modding forums. It might be worth checking there for the status on that. Currently the devs are working on the core fundamentals of the game; I'd rather leave them to that than optional elements that many players may not wish to use.

National militaries: the problem is that what your essentially talking about is a different game at that point. Not necessarily a bad game or one without merit, but not the game that is being built here.

Personally, I am assuming that various Earth forces are taking part in attempted interceptions, and are doing on the whole a terrible job of it and getting their aircraft shot down.

Weaponry: the issue with this is that it directly undermines the concept of having quick loadout templates for troops. I have a rifleman template which I customise once and then apply to all of the troops I want to be riflemen; as tech advances I may tweak that template and then quickly be able to apply it to all of my existing riflemen. This becomes significantly more effort if I have to maintain two copies of every template; one for NATO and one for Warsaw Pact.

Also, two months into the game and you're equipping troops with laser weapons, which no Earth army is familiar with. Part of the reason (I believe) that the devs have not gone into more depth with the Earth tech is that you only use it for a short period of the game before discarding it for the more advanced weapons that you research.

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The Cold War part I'll concede to you, it's definitely something that could be either dev-done or fan-done. Weaponry, I'll choose to agree to disagree, I like the idea, you don't, and I suppose it really just boils down to that, eh?

The one thing I realize kinda got buried in there, but I want to bring up again out of having just verbally asked the game in frustration why it doesn't exist: regular body armor at the beginning of the game. To cite the Xenopedia:

"We know little about extraterrestrial weapons at this point in time, so there is little point in weighing our troops down with protective equipment that may well have no effect at all."

Sure, we don't know anything about extraterrestrial weapons, I agree. But we sure as hell know a few things about our own damn weapons. Given the amount of friendly fire incidents in this game, I would appreciate the option to give my men regular old flak jackets that, even with zero bonus for alien weaponry, reduce the damage caused by ill-advised reaction shots and impossibly off-target sniper rifle rounds.

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Jebediah: The no armour is because of X-com94. back in the old future compared to Xenonauts all the soldiers got was jumpstuits. And they were happy about it when fighting aliens uphill in a hailstorm of elerium crystals and anal probes!! :P

I think a lot of the things you feel doesn't make sense is for gameplay and atmosphere reasons (bonus points if they are close to what X-com94 felt like) rather than to satisfy lore or justifications.

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I'm actually fairly agnostic on the armour front, which is why I didn't reply on it. It might be possible to mod in an armour suit that gave good protection against ballistic but poor vs plasma; I've not looked into the modding but I think there is the concept of having armour against different damage types have different values.

As Gorlom mentioned above, these ideas have two be evaluated on two levels; do they make for interesting lore, and do they make for interesting gameplay? It's easy enough to come up with ideas that are interesting from a lore perspective*, especially related to the Cold War aspect, but they don't all necessarily make good gameplay.

For example, on the weaponry example; once you strip out the lore aspects and reduce it to the mechanics, you have:

Soldiers are in either group A or group B, determined as part of their stats.

There are two rifles in the game; Rifle 1 and Rifle 2. They have identical statistics.

Soldiers from group A get a 10% accuracy penalty using Rifle 2. Soldiers from group B get a 10% accuracy penalty when using Rifle 1.

This doesn't enable any interesting decision making; if I want to make somebody who uses a rifle I just have to check their group and give them Rifle 1 or 2 as appropriate. It just adds busywork, and as mentioned before breaks one of the improvements this game has made over the original; quick equipment loadouts.

It could be interesting if you changed the the rifles to have different statistics, but then you get into a lot more re-balancing work; the devs have already indicated a preference for not having multiple weapons at the same tech level that have identical battlefield roles but slightly tweaked stats. As it is, each weapon in a tech level has a clearly defined role and purpose.

* For example; with troops from Russia, Germany and the US, what language are they speaking? Do they actually have a common language that they will all understand? The penetration of English as a common second language was not anything like as common during the time period of the game, and I'm not sure about how much Special Forces training emphasises language skills. This would have a significant effect on battlefield responsiveness if calling in a contact required translation steps.

Also, would there be morale issues with having troops with significantly different political ideologies in close proximity, and under each other's command? Would some soldiers be seeing other troopers as more of an enemy than the aliens? Would it be easier to psionically convince a Russian soldier to shoot an American one?

These are all ideas that sound OK from a lore perspective, but just don't lead to good gameplay.

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Armor: I agree, and even the in-game explanation is lame: "We don't know, therefore we wont", but it's not really a deal breaker. And to add desert camo, forest camo, snow camo, etc..is a lot of extra work for no real gameplay benefit. From a friendly fire perspective I think a better solution is to program an AI that avoids shooting your friend in the back if it's possible.

Weapons: This actually reflects reality. No organization is going to stock 5 different weapons of the same types. Each chooses the weapon of preference and stocks that. Otherwise it's a waste of resources, and inventory space. I need to stock 5 different rifles INCASE someone wants to use it, plus ammo for all those different weapons, etc. Any experienced soldier can learn to operate any other type of weapon. Heck, from the special forces divisions I'm pretty sure they specifically train in field stripping and firing many different weapons.

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I really like the idea of being able to choose conscript or discharged men for cheap or pay much higher rates for more experienced troops.

I personally would choose the conscripts, as I love the level progression and just throwing my troops at the enemy.

Edited by Ram Jam
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Sure, we don't know anything about extraterrestrial weapons, I agree. But we sure as hell know a few things about our own damn weapons. Given the amount of friendly fire incidents in this game, I would appreciate the option to give my men regular old flak jackets that, even with zero bonus for alien weaponry, reduce the damage caused by ill-advised reaction shots and impossibly off-target sniper rifle rounds.

just saying, a regular flak jacket helps about diddly squat against an assault rifle. no idea what the 5.56 round is capable of, but a 7,62 NATO round will pierce 40 cm of wood, 15 cm of stone, 1 cm of steel. and about 7 flak jackets. (front + back)

its the reason they are not called bullet proof vests in the army. their purpose is to protect you from fragments of grenades or gravel thrown by explosions

Edited by yunthi
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just saying, a regular flak jacket helps about diddly squat against an assault rifle. no idea what the 5.56 round is capable of, but a 7,62 NATO round will pierce 40 cm of wood, 15 cm of stone, 1 cm of steel. and about 7 flak jackets. (front + back)

its the reason they are not called bullet proof vests in the army. their purpose is to protect you from fragments of grenades or gravel thrown by explosions

As of 1979, assuming the player has access to good old Soviet titanium, they would be more than able of fabricating decent body armor. As the Soviets did.

The US military issued "flak jackets" in Vietnam, which were primarily aluminum and only meant to stop shrapnel, and the occasional pistol round if the wearer were on exceptionally good terms with Lady Luck and Jesus. However, Soviet body armor of the period, like the 6Б3 or the ЖЗ-85 were able to stop high-powered pistol rounds and even assault rifle rounds in favorable cases.

Obviously body armor does not mean immune to bullets. But according to this game body armor cuts weapon damage if it doesn't stop it, and if that's the mechanic, then we're using it here too.

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I like to be able to customize my soldiers. A lot of idea here would help reach that goal. Even if they are not the best option, it's good to be able to customize your troops the way you like. After all, the goal of a playing a game is to have fun ! :)

Ufo aftermath has a lot of different weapon you can use when you find them. I really liked that.

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Also, the Icelandic Incident provided proof to the NATO/Warsaw Joint Command that the aliens use weaponry based upon energy and heat. Back then, we had nothing capable of stopping or even weakening such a shot (those heat-resistant panels on the Apollo missions? Good luck lugging around a vest of that stuff, let alone full body kit).

Metal? Melts and causes more harm to the wearer. Flak Jackets? Melts with little impact.

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just saying, a regular flak jacket helps about diddly squat against an assault rifle. no idea what the 5.56 round is capable of, but a 7,62 NATO round will pierce 40 cm of wood, 15 cm of stone, 1 cm of steel. and about 7 flak jackets. (front + back)

its the reason they are not called bullet proof vests in the army. their purpose is to protect you from fragments of grenades or gravel thrown by explosions

At which range?

Body armor did not really provided safety from point-blank shot of main infantry caliber since mid 18xx.

Even advanced kevlar of 1990x able to stop most assault rifle bullets still do not protect from life-treatening trauma injures caused by bullet's energy.

But army troops supposed for close strikes still use them somehow - German "Stoßtruppen" in1917, Soviet "Strike-Ingeneer Regiments" in 1944, US in Korea and Vietnam, both USSR and NATO in Afghanistan...

Why? Because of "random bullets" at long range, ricochetes, and, as you mention it, shell and grenade frags.

Now back to Xeno reality.

Yes, we know our armor do not protect from alien strange energy weapon.

As Germans did know in 1917 "Infanterie-Panzer" do not protect from Lee-Enfield Mk I.

As Rusians did know in 1944 SN-42 do not protect from Mauser K98k nor StG44.

As US did know in 1960x M-1951 do not protect from AK-47

As in previous wars, there are random bullets and ricochetes (at least from our own weapon), there are grenades (at least our ones), there are explosions (with gravel) etc.

Why don't we use all available protection from at least secondary adverse factors? Too proud? Too stupid?

Or it's a samurai-style "human wave attack" and we just try to frighten aliens with our menacing naked [censored]?

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Also, the Icelandic Incident provided proof to the NATO/Warsaw Joint Command that the aliens use weaponry based upon energy and heat. Back then, we had nothing capable of stopping or even weakening such a shot (those heat-resistant panels on the Apollo missions? Good luck lugging around a vest of that stuff, let alone full body kit).

Metal? Melts and causes more harm to the wearer. Flak Jackets? Melts with little impact.

You do bring up a good point, although I would like to point back to the titanium armor developed by the Soviets in this time period while cross-applying the Condor's page that states titanium holds up better against their weapons than anything else. Don't know where there was titanium in the 1950s, but still.

I'm not saying it would offer protection from energy weapons, I'm just saying that a vest of titanium probably wouldn't cause the negatives a steel trauma plate would in terms of molten hellmetal right next to your vital organs.

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OP: I like your thoughts.

Having prior miltiary experience matter and being able to hire better troops over time not only helps immerion, but lessens the blow of loosing soldiers later in the game.

Also, having avilability tired to relations to the nation? Brilliant.

It may require a change to the interface tough. But definately worth it.

I always was and always will be for making the world feel mroe alive - and that means AI allies. More friendly soldiers, especially on some maps or mission.

Edited by TrashMan
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