zolobolo Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Been playing with v19, and was wondering in what direction the inventory management is going to go for the next release(es) to address the following: - Multiple shields for one guy (mentioned in other topics) should be avoided. Maybe decrease size of backpack by I row so a shield doesn't even fit - and maybe extend it with a column so that space is not lost though I am not sure if we really need so much backpack space at all. - Increasing the TU usage difference between belt and backpack giving belt more advantages so that grenades and pistol should be kept there and all backpack actions would practically render the soldier useless for a turn. This is to prevent stacking up the backpack of the solider with grenades, or make rocket troopers able to fire Edit: There is another reason having larger TU requirement difference between backpack and belt: Usage of quick reload and quick grenade would only be possible from belt (I think currently also backpack items are shown though not sure about this). This way we would need to consider if we want a pistol/med kit/stun button or rather more magazines and grenades for quick slots since everything in the backpack would require a turn to take into hand. - Some way to show the player how much TU it costs to conduct reorganization within items would be very useful showing it maybe above the pointer. Common sense helps determine that pistol should be in the belt to spare TU-s but I am still not sure how much that is better than storing it in the backpack (or I may just not have seen the forest from the trees ) Edited September 28, 2013 by zolobolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaror Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Been playing with v19, and was wondering in what direction the inventory management is going to go for the next release(es) to address the following:- Multiple shields for one guy (mentioned in other topics) should be avoided. Maybe decrease size of backpack by I row so a shield doesn't even fit - and maybe extend it with a column so that space is not lost though I am not sure if we really need so much backpack space at all. - Increasing the TU usage difference between belt and backpack giving belt more advantages so that grenades and pistol should be kept there and all backpack actions would practically render the soldier useless for a turn. This is to prevent stacking up the backpack of the solider with grenades, or make rocket troopers able to fire - Some way to show the player how much TU it costs to conduct reorganization within items would be very useful showing it maybe above the pointer. Common sense helps determine that pistol should be in the belt to spare TU-s but I am still not sure how much that is better than storing it in the backpack (or I may just not have seen the forest from the trees ) I disagree on the shield thing. I play assaults with 1 shield 1 pistol and a shotgun for clearing Ufos. This is usefull but not OP in any way and not being able to put the shield in the backpack to switch to the shotgun for 1 round would have killed my assaults very often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GizmoGomez Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I agree on point 3. A TU indicator would really really be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolobolo Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) not being able to put the shield in the backpack to switch to the shotgun for 1 round would have killed my assaults very often. I see your point, but propose we put some limitation on our self so our decisions during the inventory selection have more weight. Surely we need to change our tactics but this will probably happen anyway as the game gets fine tuned. I am also not sure if this would be beneficial all and all but it surely be more realistic. A shield should and does provide large defensive benefits but need to come with a cost in balance with this. The pistol as a weapon type would also gain in weight if it would be the only practical weapon combined with a shield (TU needs would strongly restrict and discourage the usage of other weapons like you said) I have tried using shotgun guys and breach soldiers with shield and pistols in tandem for breaching and it worked out quite well. Breach soldiers provided cover for shotgun guys and it was not only effective but quite realistic. This tactic has forced me to use pistols quite often and I learned to value these weapons due to this. Edited September 28, 2013 by zolobolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I think the soldiers should give up on backpacks, and just sling their weapons and wear a load-bearing vest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolobolo Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share Posted September 28, 2013 I think the soldiers should give up on backpacks, and just sling their weapons and wear a load-bearing vest That would be awesome! Sign me up for a mod that has matching combat sprites for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elydo Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Given that the sprites don't come with backpacks anyway, we could always say that the largest inventory box is in fact a chest loadout. Which in turn gives rise to a highly amusing image when a soldier is carrying a comrade, or an alien corpse. Baby-carriers, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Given that the sprites don't come with backpacks anyway, we could always say that the largest inventory box is in fact a chest loadout.Which in turn gives rise to a highly amusing image when a soldier is carrying a comrade, or an alien corpse. Baby-carriers, anyone? Nah, like a bride through the threshold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GizmoGomez Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Can we mod the inventory? Like, add a very faint transparent outline of a vest, and make pockets for it, then make a weapon sling slot or something? Also, rotating items in the inventory is something that we absolutely need to have. Really, it makes so much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Being able to edit the size and shape of the inventory would be amazing. "Also, rotating items in the inventory is something that we absolutely need to have. Really, it makes so much sense." A thousand times yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osvir Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Been playing with v19, and was wondering in what direction the inventory management is going to go for the next release(es) to address the following:1) - Multiple shields for one guy (mentioned in other topics) should be avoided. Maybe decrease size of backpack by I row so a shield doesn't even fit - and maybe extend it with a column so that space is not lost though I am not sure if we really need so much backpack space at all. 2) - Increasing the TU usage difference between belt and backpack giving belt more advantages so that grenades and pistol should be kept there and all backpack actions would practically render the soldier useless for a turn. This is to prevent stacking up the backpack of the solider with grenades, or make rocket troopers able to fire 1) I somewhat agree. Maybe a compromise or solution would be to make the Inventory Space have 1 row less on harder difficulties? (Veteran and up) 2) 100% Agree! Great idea. So if you have 2 rockets on the belt, you fire both them, then you'd have to go into the backpack and move over 2 rockets to the belt, kinda? Good idea nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolobolo Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) 1)So if you have 2 rockets on the belt, you fire both them, then you'd have to go into the backpack and move over 2 rockets to the belt, kinda? Good idea nonetheless. I didn't even considered this, but yes, it makes sense. This way the rocket guy is somewhat slowed down and needs to fill up his belt for a turn or two to be able fire one rocket per turn (but maximal 3 times then again fill up the belt). The best thing is the problematic: do you want to have rockets/baton/ammo/grenades/medikit or pistol in that slot. If you risk having rockets there the guy is more effective but will not able able to swing out the pistol and fire it several times within a turn. It really feels like the belt and backpack/Pocket West needs strong differentiation and the quick reload/grenade function would be perfect/logical to validate its existence. I was just expecting that ammo in the backpack would not appear for quick reload - now it is probably meant as a "quick reload" for the player not for the soldier but it wasn't obvious and after the original I associated on a "soldier quick reload" since he can more rapidly reload than from his backpack. I understand the reasoning for the swing weapon function, but we should be careful having such a large "cache" space where we can just throw in all kinds of weapons just to be sure and use whichever is convenient at the moment. Sure it is fun but makes the game too easy and unrealistic (for the period) in my opinion - sometimes I really felt like playing ME where the guy just brings out a shotgun when tactical situation requires it. Now what could be fun and realistic is having different inventory layouts for different kind of armor enabling weapon swapping for one or two armor types but in the same time limiting their overall capacity since the backpack would be gone after the basic uniform and you would store everything on the amour itself. This would also resolve the super strong soldier exploit who can carry everything + the kitchen sink. Rookies would have large useable space but low strength and veterans would suffer from limited item space on advanced armors so you would sacrifice armour and/or swap weapon functionality for larger inventory. Again the pistol would be an exception and thus much more important since it can always go with you in the belt Edited September 29, 2013 by zolobolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 > Now what could be fun and realistic is having different inventory layouts for different kind or armors Or, just, you know, wear the LBE over it like the rest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolobolo Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 >Or, just, you know, wear the LBE over it like the rest That would also be fine, but even with LBE there are two questions left open: 1. Do we need a backpack at all and if yes, to which armours should it exist, how large should it be and with what TU cost should it be used? 2. Should either LBE or the backpack support weapon swap and if yes, which one? Historically there were no weapon swapping, the west only enabled easy access to grenades, ammo and some other usefull but small items Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elydo Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 As far as I am aware, and I shall of course default to Delta's practised knowledge here should mine be incorrect, but most soldiers don't carry more than a single main weapon into combat anyway. Depending on the mission parameters some members of a squad might carry single use Anti-Tank launchers in addition, but otherwise you'll have your main weapon according to your role in the squad, a sidearm as a secondary and any other mission tailored sundries. And the sidearm has its own special little carrying option that isn't really made for stowing anything else. And a knife. Or a spoon if you're Australian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 As far as I am aware, and I shall of course default to Delta's practised knowledge here should mine be incorrect, but most soldiers don't carry more than a single main weapon into combat anyway. Depending on the mission parameters some members of a squad might carry single use Anti-Tank launchers in addition, but otherwise you'll have your main weapon according to your role in the squad, a sidearm as a secondary and any other mission tailored sundries. And the sidearm has its own special little carrying option that isn't really made for stowing anything else.And a knife. Or a spoon if you're Australian. That's pretty well correct; shotguns are pretty common issue to combat units as breaching tools, as well, so a few random guys with rifles will more than likely be packing a shotgun as well, and as many grenades and magazines/drums/shells as they can practically fit and carry on their bodys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elydo Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 I would have thought a shotgun with breaching rounds wouldn't be of that much use in a fight, thus negating its application as a 'weapon' for the purposes of consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Oh, they'll still utterly wreck the hell out of a living creature, and you don't load the whole thing up breaching rounds, nor is that usually the only sort of round carried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elydo Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 How much range does a breaching round have in combat? Honest question, I hardly ever get to pick the brains of a professional. It's somewhat rude even when I do so I try not to indulge. Given the rarity of magazine-fed shotguns, any round selection would have to be preloaded into the weapon. Does the operator simply keep track of expenditure and jack out any combat rounds upon reaching a breach situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 If you slammed one into a living target at close range, about maybe 5-10 meters, it'd be similar to hitting them with a slug; that's basically what breaching rounds are, after a fashion: a little container with a bunch of powdered/sintered metal inside. When it hits something hard, it bursts open, and the powder inside disperses. All that said, you're looking at a round that would travel most of the way through a human body. As to the second part, you're loading the shotgun for breaching. The first few rounds are for breaching; the last few are buck or slug more or less as insurance. After you knock the door's hinges off, you're transitioning to your rifle or getting out of the way for other people to move in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elydo Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Yeah, my understanding of breaching was that the doorknockers were not first through. Right, I shall retain the rest of my curiosity and leave it at my thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Adding better indication of the TU costs of moving items around in the inventory is definitely on the todo list, as is tuning the difference in TU when retrieving an item from backpack vs. belt. I'm not convinced we should be restricting things like how many shields soldiers can carry specifically (though those probably should be somewhat heavier than they currently are) - if people come up with unorthodox tactics I actually think that's awesome, so long as the tactic is not so effective to overshadow the more conventional ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EchoFourDelta Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Adding better indication of the TU costs of moving items around in the inventory is definitely on the todo list, as is tuning the difference in TU when retrieving an item from backpack vs. belt. I'm not convinced we should be restricting things like how many shields soldiers can carry specifically (though those probably should be somewhat heavier than they currently are) - if people come up with unorthodox tactics I actually think that's awesome, so long as the tactic is not so effective to overshadow the more conventional ones. Is there ever going to be any mod-ability for the inventory in and of itself, or is that a black box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Pretty much black box I'm afraid - the code involved with having the ground combat communicate to the geoscape and vice versa is unfortunately rather ad hoc and fragile (hence the weirdness with duplicated data in different files). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolobolo Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 Adding better indication of the TU costs of moving items around in the inventory is definitely on the todo list, as is tuning the difference in TU when retrieving an item from backpack vs. belt. Thanks Aaron, glad it is already planned - looking forward to it once implemented. We can probably better judge the unortdox tactics once these are in place, since I am sure the balanced TU usage will render most of these unpractical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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