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Geoscape Balance Discussion v19 Experimental Build 7


Aaron

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What I've never seen answered is this: What purpose does such a divide serve? The obvious gameplay effects would be to force you to build significantly more aircraft (need a full squadron of Foxtrots, AND 2-3 dogfighters as opposed to 3 Foxtrots per base), which seems to go against part of the rationale behind the immortal plane change, which was to make air combat a less important part of the economy.

I think it's because in some airfights (scout/corvette/lship/etc. with fighter-type escorts) you're meant to do more interesting stuff than "hold back a missile, tease out the roll, fire the other missile" or "fire both missiles, send out Charlie". For example, using one foxtrot as a decoy so that the condors can flank the big, non-fighter UFO and gun it down.

Of course, like you say, that doesn't actually happen, because foxtrots have superior speed, power and range.

Edited by Ol' Stinky
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In my mind, when you provide different weapons in a game there ought to distinct differences in how they operate and what they're good for. If the player doesn't need to think about what weapon to choose for a given situation what was the point in providing a choice? The classic example is the evolution of the shotgun in this game. It went from being basically a shorter range rifle to something completely different, but more useful in certain situations.

I agree that having different options should create situation where players have to choose between them, otherwise you've only created the illusion of choice (and frustration for players that thought it was a real one).

The ideas that have been discussed to create a role/need for dogfighters seem to be going in a direction that is the opposite of that. If you are forced to use them to kill alien fighters it's not a choice, it's a question of "Did you know in advance you need X of plane Y?" Likewise if you have to use Foxtrots to kill capital ships, that's not a choice it's a straight up "You must have them to do this task."

If you can kill escorts with Foxtrots/torpedos reasonably, we have the current situation. If you can kill capital ships reasonably with Condors/cannons, the positions would be reversed. Either way, it's not really a choice as there is a clear best option. So why not get rid of that divide entirely?

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If you can kill escorts with Foxtrots/torpedos reasonably, we have the current situation. If you can kill capital ships reasonably with Condors/cannons, the positions would be reversed. Either way, it's not really a choice as there is a clear best option. So why not get rid of that divide entirely?
FYI, the latest build 19.1 Stable has a lot of changes for air combat check it out. I'm at work and can't look right now.
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The first few times I've tried to shoot down a fighter with a foxtrot, I couldn't time the torpedoes well, so I missed both shots. It didn't take me long to conclude, wrongly, that it was by design that you couldn't shoot a fighter with two torpedoes. Having that assumption, I've only used dog fighters to engage alien fighters. I think I enjoyed the game more at that point. After figuring out how to shoot down fighters with a foxtrot, my fleet converged to a foxtrot-only setup. That's why I think not being able to target/hit fighters with torpedoes might do good to the game. Though I'd prefer being able to target but not to hit under normal circumstances (so you'd have to create interesting circumstances).

The higher turning rate of the condors are supposed to be an important feature, but I can't really imagine any combat situation where the condor's turning radius is useful. It's not enough to tail even a corvette, let alone a fighter. OK, maybe if you're already behind the corvette, you might stay in its tail, but that won't ever happen, since it will have shot you down before then. I've noticed that, if you want to spiral around an alien ship to eventually tail it, that will only happen with a marauder against larger ships. That said, I'm not really sure if being able to spiral behind alien ships with a condor would add to the game. Then you could always do that.

Maybe that's actually the problem; the air combat is too deterministic. The only uncertain element is whether a roll will be performed towards left or right, and even that little uncertainty adds to the game. The only times I really enjoy the air combat is when a random and intricate circumstance arises in a 3 vs 3 combat after the dog fighters roll to awkward positions. On top of this, you should realize that these circumstances arise mostly at cannon range, and at that range, it's very likely that you'll receive at least some damage (no matter how little) from enemy short range fire.

This brings us to the final point I'd like to mention: I think repairs and refuel should take place in parallel, because otherwise, even the slightest damage incapacitates a plane for the duration of an alien ship wave. Therefore, in practice, there's no difference whatsoever between getting a plane shot down, and receiving a 1% damage. In both cases, the plane will be incapacitated for the current wave and it will be available for the next wave (indestructible planes). Another result is that the airplane hit points are mostly irrelevant.

In summary: 1) Foxtrot vs. Fighter shouldn't work. 2) Dog fighter planes' turning rate should be relevant. 3) We need more uncertainty. 4) Repair + refuel should happen in parallel (or first refuel then repair).

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FYI, the latest build 19.1 Stable has a lot of changes for air combat check it out. I'm at work and can't look right now.

Yeah, I saw that but won't really be able to play much for the next several days. I don't think that really changes the point I was trying to make though.

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The ideas that have been discussed to create a role/need for dogfighters seem to be going in a direction that is the opposite of that. If you are forced to use them to kill alien fighters it's not a choice, it's a question of "Did you know in advance you need X of plane Y?" Likewise if you have to use Foxtrots to kill capital ships, that's not a choice it's a straight up "You must have them to do this task."

In fairness, the game explicitly tells you in the xenopedia entry for the Foxtrot that they are useful against larger UFOs and gives a not-so-subtle warning that you should build some for when they turn up. Moreover, as I've said elsewhere, in the suggestion I've made its not absolute - with missiles, a Foxtrot can still add some strength to back up your Condors, while Condors can still do damage to larger UFOs even if they might need multiple waves to take the larger ones.

It's likely that an 'optimal' ratio would be 1:1, but even that I think would assume that you want to be able to take all air encounters. Given that most larger ships are unescorted at the moment, there's no reason why you couldn't run a strike base that just uses Foxtrots to take lone UFOs (and, until Heavy Fighters turn up, they can even possibly evade fighter patrols due to being faster), or just run Condors with the expectation that you won't be able to engage as many UFOs due to having less hitting power per attack. Ans so on. While I'll admit this is all theorycrafting, on paper I don't think things are nearly as static as you imply.

(Although, as it turns out, we'll get to see now!)

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Solution:

Lower the price on everything but the cheapo rifles, armors and such. Keep income as it is.

Make alien fighters immune to torpedoes, so we need to use fighters to counter them.

Lower fighter repair times by a good chunk, so it's not heartbreaking getting hit a couple times, main reason why we avoid fighters. We don't care if holes are plugged with tape and gum, as long as they fly.

We will then have money for both fighters, bombers, troops and their gear. And for bases to put them in. Right now, the money is NOT enough to have fighters fit in, when the condor becomes obsolete, bombers are mega important for the big guys.

Buff up fighter cannon ammo again, making them more attractive, and fuel capacity, but implement a maximum range from base, equal to radar range (for safety reasons). That will allow for a sortie with multiple targets for our fighters.

DON'T forget we need to expand, or lose territory. And because we want to. Overall economic balance should have that into account, and right now it doesn't look like it does. I can't get over the fact that a heavy gun is more expensive then a plane, and hits nothing beyond point blank, for example, and does an awful work suppressing.

And the player should not need a master's is economy, an associate's is enough.

And we will all be happy :)

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