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Contribution-Based Stat Increases and Promotions (yet another attempt)


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I think there is a way to avoid "calisthenics". And they should be avoided.

Shooting at walls or doing ridiculous things like "spend 600 AP when loaded to 80%+ weight" should not generate XP/training.

No more Bethesda-style Master of Running!

I had posted something like that before but it was only a tweak to another system. This here is a complete concept so I put it in a new thread.

  1. Any and all XP gains are tied to "hurting an alien".
    You can't cheese the system and train indefinitely because you run out of aliens.
  2. The XP that an alien "contains" is limited and independent from the alien's hit points!
    This XP pool can be used up before the alien is dead.
    You can suppress an alien all day long but that's not going to result in training all day long.
    XP is absolutely limited to the amount of aliens in the area. No alien? Go home. You're done here.
  3. More dangerous aliens have a larger XP pool.
    = another useful balancing tool because you have a way to balance total XP gain!
  4. The total amount of "training" that a soldier receives from an action is directly proportional to the percentage of the target's max hit points that the attack subtracts.
    Hitting an alien tank for 20% of it's damage would be worth 20% of the alien's XP pool.
    With a very dangerous alien you get more XP for the same action because it has a bigger XP pool.
    Suppression or stun damage could also generate XP. This XP is all taken from the same pool.
    If a "heavy" does nothing but suppress lots of aliens without ever damaging one, he has still contributed. He gets XP for that.
    If you shoot a rocket at a wall, that's the same thing as doing it on a shooting range. No alien hurt. No mission XP.
  5. You can also de-couple the XP reward from success at an action.
    This way a raw recruit shooting at an alien 3 times can get the same result as the veteran hitting the alien 3 times.
    Instead of the above "XP generation" method, the base chance to hit is calculated. (not dependent on soldier skill!)
    A low probability shot is worth low XP percentage.
    The weapon's average damage (minus target's mitigation) multiplies that.
    The soldier gets rewarded with XP equivalent to the damage that he will probably do.
    Since these "average XP" can mean that the alien is killed before all it's XP have been "used up", the killing / stunning shot always awards any remaining XP that the alien may have.
    As described above, lower ranks get an XP bonus so they advance faster.
    On average you get the exact same result as with 4.
    The difference is that it is only required to perform the action - not to actually be successful at it.
  6. Weapons have an XP modifier.
    A weapon with a higher modifier "generates" more XP per damage done.

    • With a sniper rifle you are going to cause damage directly.
      Modifier = 1.
      With a machine gun you are more likely to lay down suppressive fire, hitting less often.
      Modifier = 2

If a lucky 21% hit from a MG eats up 42% of the alien's XP pool, the sniper can only "gain" XP equivalent to the remaining 58% XP, even if the alien has 79% of it's hit points left.

This models the fact that a 100% suppressed alien is not very dangerous. Your sniper has an easy and safe job - more like on the firing range.

This (5.) is just an option. It could be dropped completely if suppression/stun damage also count as XP-worthy events.

[*] What kind of stats are being trained depends on the weapon used.

Some examples...

  • Grenade
    • XP Modifier = 1 (but can hurt multiple targets...)
    • 35% Strength
    • 20% hidden stat for extra throwing range / accuracy
    • 20% HP
    • 25% AP

    [*] Sniper Rifle

    • XP Modifier = 1
    • 50% Accuracy
    • 20% Reflexes
    • 30% AP

    [*] Shotgun

    • XP Modifier = 1.5
    • 30% AP
    • 25% Reflexes
    • 25% Accuracy
    • 20% HP

    [*] Machine Gun

    • XP Modifier = 1.8
    • 40% Strength
    • 20% Accuracy
    • 20% AP
    • 20% Reflexes

Every weapon would train all stats to differing degrees. I only listed some key points to illustrate the concept.

Stat training is job specific and scales with how much a soldier contributes.

Getting shot in the head does not make you tougher!

One spin-off of this would be to assign a different training distribution to different fire modes of a weapon. An assault rifle using aimed shots would shift the points a bit from strength towards accuracy.

[*] New recruits.

The FNG could not contribute a lot - especially in an advanced game with much more dangerous aliens.

Since he can't hurt them a lot, he would not gain a lot of XP.

Ranks would have XP modifiers.

A recruit gains a "training effect bonus" after the XP has been deducted from the alien's XP pool.

In the early game this is balanced by "easy aliens" having a small XP pool. Progression is normal.

In the later game, a recruit doing some damage to a high-XP target will get a disproportionally large training effect and so be able to somewhat catch up to the rest of the team.

[*] Calculation of post-mission stat increases.

Every soldier has now received 6 (more in case of hidden stats?) different kinds of "training points", relating to the different character stats.

For each stat there are two successive random rolls against this stat's training points to determine how many actual stat points you get out of this.

After the first roll, 100 are deducted from this stat's training points.

A weapon's "minor stats" have basically no chance to gain 2 points - no matter how much you reload.

You can still weigh these rolls with the stat number if you want. That's just math.

The rank-based XP bonus / reduction (7.) would already take care of most of that.

[*] Promotions

Promotions are based entirely on the total stat points of a soldier.

Stat increases are contribution-based so promotions are in turn contribution-based.

The distribution of initial stat points is random.

If you can hire "experienced" recruits later in the game, these will have the rank that corresponds to their stat point total.

(basically like it works now)

Promotions have a negative effect on "skill training" (no bonus, see 7.)... but a positive effect on morale.

The aliens will make sure you're going to fight more dangerous aliens so the malus to skill training will be taken care of.

You want promotions for the morale increase.

[*] The actual calculations are all simple and occur at exactly one point in the code - when damage of any kind is done.

Well, and obviously with the mission debriefing.

Edited by Gazz
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Maybe instead of a weapon-based XP modifier, certain weapons could grant a bonus post-battle stat. For example: LMG guys Andy and Bob take part in a successful mission, thanks in part to their role in laying down suppressing fire. LMGs give a guaranteed str increase along with the two random stat increases; Andy gets an increase to STR, ACC and REF, while Bob happens to get STR, TUs and ACC.

The snipers, on the other hand, would get the usual two random stats, since they're benefiting from in-battle XP gains.

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When awarding such fixed bonuses, how do you handle soldiers who use two or three different weapons in a mission?

If one uses a grenade, pistol, and sniper rifle, does he get all 3 bonus sets?

Edited by Gazz
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Do correct me if I'm not reading it correctly , but firing a machine gun increases how much my soldier can carry and how much he can do in a turn?

I think I prefer a system where I can see the direct correlation from the action being undertaken to the reward in this case. I didn't find myself healthier or able to multi-task more the last time I fired a shotgun.

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There's no "easy" way for them to avoid leveling abuse really. Which is why they give players the "config" file ;) Simply go in and lower gain rates down to a level that "feels" right for you. I understand that it's hard to not abuse the current system because the level rates are just too damn high so lowering them to a point where you will not WANT to bother with cheese leveling because it will take way too much time is about the only way. If they used a normal xp based lvling system, players would choose to raise accuracy through the roof therefor breaking the game completely. They would have to literally redo all weapon stats and the whole accuracy system. Honestly I think a different xp based leveling system is just too much to ask for. Do you really want to be stuck with predefined soldier types like the latest X-com? Because that is pretty much what they would have to do to keep it challenging. The current system DOES work IF you can keep yourself from cheesing it. And if you can't, then you'll need to get familiar with the config file.

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Do correct me if I'm not reading it correctly , but firing a machine gun increases how much my soldier can carry and how much he can do in a turn?

I think I prefer a system where I can see the direct correlation from the action being undertaken to the reward in this case. I didn't find myself healthier or able to multi-task more the last time I fired a shotgun.

There are no real actions that can be performed on the ground that would increase your health that I can think of so having it attached to the role you are performing seems to be the best bet.

If you are working as a sniper then it is safe to assume you have been training as a sniper.

I think of it as the training they are putting in towards their assigned role paying off.

Not entirely realistic but then neither is gaining any 'stat' just from a ten minute run around a ground mission.

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Really isn't as bad as you guys may think.

Strength = Increases when you are incumbered and you take any action(movement while carrying extreme weight increases your strength. Sensible right?)

Accuracy = Increases when you fire your weapons(Although it should be when you actually hit something)

Reflexes = Increases when your soldier gets a reaction shot(Based entirely on your soldier's starting reflex percentage and the weapon he/she is using).

AP = Increases with anything you do but at quite a low rate.

Bravery = Increases each time your soldier panics(Backwards if you think about it)

Resilience = This I'm not completely sure on. One of two things raise this. It ether increases slowly as your soldier takes damage or it is simply increased when your soldier ranks up.

A few of them are a bit odd like bravery but none are really game-breaking considering you can change the rates in the config to your liking.

Edited by 200down
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Chris didn't want hitting the target to be required in order to build accuracy.

It works counter to the way he was aiming for (intended :)) as higher accuracy would give more hits and therefore build accuracy faster.

Low accuracy soldiers would potentially build accuracy much slower than high accuracy ones unless you start adding in additional counters like diminishing returns.

The poor low accuracy soldiers would still be stuck gaining rare increases as they still can't hit anything though.

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The purpose of the system is simple.

Soldier improvements are a function of mission-relevant actions.

Doing 600 sit-ups in the Skyranger does absolutely nothing to get the mission accomplished so there is zero "training reward".

Kill / capture the aliens, don't get your soldier hurt. (like by shooting them yourself to train hit points!)

That is what the system should reward!

Chris didn't want hitting the target to be required in order to build accuracy.

It works counter to the way he was aiming for (intended :)) as higher accuracy would give more hits and therefore build accuracy faster.

That would be only a small change.

Instead of the above "XP generation" method, the base chance to hit is calculated. (not dependent on soldier skill)

A low probability shot adds a low XP percentage.

The weapon's average damage (minus target's mitigation) multiplies that.

End of change.

Take high probability shots (no matter if the soldier has high or low accuracy) and a lot of XP is generated. (because that's a dangerous affair)

As described above, lower ranks get an XP bonus so they advance faster.

"Stat grinding" has never been fun. It's an evil that should be hanged, shot, quartered, and burned. Then burned again.

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Chris didn't want hitting the target to be required in order to build accuracy.

It works counter to the way he was aiming for (intended :)) as higher accuracy would give more hits and therefore build accuracy faster.

Low accuracy soldiers would potentially build accuracy much slower than high accuracy ones unless you start adding in additional counters like diminishing returns.

The poor low accuracy soldiers would still be stuck gaining rare increases as they still can't hit anything though.

It is supposed to be harder to increase a stat as it goes higher. Sure, high accuracy soldiers will hit more often but they will have to hit more times to increase accuracy, as well. I think this is what makes the backbone of every "stat naturally increased" system. In addition, failed skill use(in those skills that this is relevant, like accuracy) should only have a slight chance to count towards increasing the skill and not having a standard contribution. Intelligence is supposed to control that chance in RPGs. Since Xenonaughts does not have intelligence implemented for soldiers(please, correct me if I am wrong), I guess making it a standard 1% chance to count towards the increase can do the trick.

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