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Request: Randomized Maps


DNK

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I really dont care either way.

If we get so many hand crafted maps I never see the same one twice, I am fine with that.

And...when the game is done, 5$ says look forward to Map Pack DLCs.

And thats fine with me...as long at the game starts with a reasonable amount.

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I don't really get the "issues" with randomized submaps. I wasn't aware that having too few/many open areas was an issue. That's part of map diversity. Not all random slices of urban/industrial areas have the same feel or density of stuff.

Anyway, I've fixed my issues with the submap editor, so hopefully I can start working on some myself. That said, this system is REALLY tedious as set up currently.

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For me, the problem with randomised submaps is that with more complex ones (i.e. houses and the like), it's harder for the mapper to set down sensible spawn points in the level editor. I try to keep consistant spaces clear, like the middle 2x2 squares for the random farm fields, but that's noticably more constraining when you're making a building with rooms full of flavour props. If there was some kind of spawn protection it wouldn't be an issue. Gameplay wise, though, I'm happy with the randomisation and glad that we can put it in the game ourselves.

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This is probably just a stupid suggestion, but is there any way that maps can be flipped? Maybe if there was a layout like farmhouse in the north east, hay in the north west, crops to the south east, and a shed to the south west, and just flip it so that the top components on the map become the bottom ones?

I have many years of experience with D&D and it still amazes me how I can stupify players by taking the very map they were just playing on a few days and turn it 180 degrees, and suddenly they think it's a brand new map.

Obviously, given the isometric view of the maps, they can't just be turned around, but is mirroring possible?

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This is probably just a stupid suggestion, but is there any way that maps can be flipped? Maybe if there was a layout like farmhouse in the north east, hay in the north west, crops to the south east, and a shed to the south west, and just flip it so that the top components on the map become the bottom ones?

I have many years of experience with D&D and it still amazes me how I can stupify players by taking the very map they were just playing on a few days and turn it 180 degrees, and suddenly they think it's a brand new map.

Obviously, given the isometric view of the maps, they can't just be turned around, but is mirroring possible?

If I'm understanding you correctly, yeah, you can make a variant of an existing map by switching around the aircraft/spawns. So Hypothetical_Map_A might have the player start in the north, and Hypothetical_Map_B might have them start in the south, but otherwise be identical. This falls down later in the game though, when UFO sizes start to balloon. It's a simple matter to shift around a lightscout, but a carrier is something like 15x50. For reference, a small map is usually 60x60. Even when it comes to landing ships, you have to design the map with points in mind, randomised terrain or not.

The reason I don't do variants at the moment is that if there's an issue with the original, then I have to go through all the variants and fix them in there, too. If I'm ever happy with my maps I'll make a bunch of versions with different start points. It's definately a good way to make the smaller UFO maps a bit fresher if you have a good map to tweak.

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  • 1 month later...

I don't believe this game can truly be called a successor to the original X-COM without having random maps. Xenonauts is a good game, but without random maps, there's little reason not to play the original X-COM. I was under the impression that this game was going to be a modern X-COM, but it seems as if it's only half way there, oh well.

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We need a big "banging head to a wall" emoticon, and a script that post it automatically every time someone post saying "no random maps? wtf!!".

Seriously, random maps will happen, not devs side but community side. And when finally devs DO start to make maps for the final game (wich they actually arent much doing for obvious reasons) it wont matter to you much if theres enough maps around plus community ones.

Note: We could really need a sticky with "Random maps are not dead"

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Random maps are somewhat pointless from a tactical perspective anyway. The AI is going to tend to setup (or move to) the same types of locations on the map no matter how much you shuffle them around. They did in the OG and I expect they will here. Anyone with a tactical sense is going to know where to expect aliens. It's usually going to be in the UFO and in the best cover around it with a few scouts/terrorist farther away. There are a limited number of decent defensive position on any map and the AI will seek them out.

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Random maps are somewhat pointless from a tactical perspective anyway. The AI is going to tend to setup (or move to) the same types of locations on the map no matter how much you shuffle them around. They did in the OG and I expect they will here. (...) There are a limited number of decent defensive position on any map and the AI will seek them out.

Of course the AI will try to make use of a beneficial piece of terrain. In real life, if there is an obvious cover, soldiers will often try to use it, even though the enemy expects them to. It does not mean that every skirmish involving a barn and a tree will be the same, right?

It's usually going to be in the UFO and in the best cover around it with a few scouts/terrorist farther away.

Yes, and the enemies will be aliens. That's what the game is about, basically.

Look, I fully realize it's pointless to bicker about random maps at this point, because they will happen; and if they don't, you can do it yourself instead of complaining. That's fair. However, saying that random maps do not add anything to the game is an outrageous claim.

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All I'm saying is that the game won't change much. It will look "different" is all. The best thing to randomize is the location of the alien ship. That adds the most to the interest in my opinion.

Well, I disagree. There's not really much to add, and I do not intend to try to sway you to my side; I guess we feel different about this, that's all. To me, more random maps mean a whole world of difference, and not just in tactics, but in general immersion. Knowing a map by heart really kills it for me and I wanted to make it known, just in case the Devs see it.

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I absolutely agree with Solarius; I would take a bit odd looking random map over a stellar looking pre made one any day. Knowing that this location is completely unique and that I will never be here again nor will anybody else gives that special something to games with randomized content. Pre made maps tend often to feel too appropriate, too planned.

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working on it. the maps themselves don't take long to make a couple minutes it's the stuff you put into the map that takes forever. their called submaps.

1.) to make it appear random and keep that appearance i estimate that i would need to make 20 sub-submaps per submap these submaps would be blocks like this:

a) 5x5 heavy cover

b) 10x10 heavy cover

c) 5x5 light Cover

d ) 10x10 light cover

the rest would be more like 10-15 variations instead of 20

e) 15x15 Barracks

f) 10x10 Storage area

G) 5x5 storage area

h) 10x10 office

i) 10x15 compound ( this would be like satelite facilitys, small jail house, missile control, etc.)

And a lot more stuff like that.

. and with those submaps make about 20 levels for each ufo genre (ie. scout/lightscout ; landing ship/corvette; etc. ) if this is done the game will only appear random within 150 crash/landing site visits. assuming you only get sites within a specific environment ( which won't be the case most of the time ) now you may be thinking why so many? REPLAY Value if you replay the game over and over. with the stated numbers assuming you will be generally getting 1-2 different environments most of the time. with about 50 sites each playthrough NOT including terror and base assaults. you should be able to play the game about 3 times before you start noticing "hey i know this level. that is assuming you set you bases the same place everytime. it takes a while to make all this for all environments. PLUS tile Development takes a while.

so yea it will be a bit before this stuff becomes a reality.

self-quote

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I've been having a look at random maps as well, so far I have a simple program that generates stuff like this http://pastebin.com/66pg2h0X ( || is hedge, ## is road, ** is grass)

it is just for farms at this moment, as those are relatively simple and I still need to flesh out the algorithm a little more and write the xml parser obviously but then atleast for farm I can probably generate a pack of a thousands maps or something like that

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I've been having a look at random maps as well, so far I have a simple program that generates stuff like this http://pastebin.com/66pg2h0X ( || is hedge, ## is road, ** is grass)

it is just for farms at this moment, as those are relatively simple and I still need to flesh out the algorithm a little more and write the xml parser obviously but then atleast for farm I can probably generate a pack of a thousands maps or something like that

looks like you already have stage 1 mostely finished just needs a little refinement. but will those ||, ##, and ** the 10x10 submaped grounds or are they individual tiles or the 5x5 submaped grounds? also the roads atm don't have ends so they will have to end at the edge of the map and begin at the edge of the map or a corisponding concrete edge section.

whats the plans for stage 2? the props and buildings?

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Those are individual tiles, I still need to update them to match the dimension of the submaps in editor. There is still of lot of stuff missing for the tile algorithm, I already have a version that only starts roads at the edges but it can't handle intersections (since there is only T), I need to set the hedges to have minimal length of 4 and somehow guarantee that there is always a passable way through the map. Buildings and props are probably still far in the future but those should be relatively simple compared to the tile placement.

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I'm working on creating a set of randomized corridor junction submaps for the alien base missions. As it is, the larger alien base layouts are rather easy to memorize and they don't require you to clear every room to reach the command center, so by throwing in a randomized element at a crucial junction or two, you can radically alter how the player must navigate the base.

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Those are individual tiles, I still need to update them to match the dimension of the submaps in editor. There is still of lot of stuff missing for the tile algorithm, I already have a version that only starts roads at the edges but it can't handle intersections (since there is only T), I need to set the hedges to have minimal length of 4 and somehow guarantee that there is always a passable way through the map. Buildings and props are probably still far in the future but those should be relatively simple compared to the tile placement.

Sounds Good, i might suggest haveing the generator first define Sections(just for the generators reference) within the level( this 20x20 section is the Ufo section[somewhere up top]; this 20x20 section is the player landing site[somewhere on the bottem]; this 50x50 section is the building section; everything else normal filler..... stuff like that) it helps to keep the levels making sense. just a suggestion. I look forward to Future developments to this project =)

I'm working on creating a set of randomized corridor junction submaps for the alien base missions. As it is, the larger alien base layouts are rather easy to memorize and they don't require you to clear every room to reach the command center, so by throwing in a randomized element at a crucial junction or two, you can radically alter how the player must navigate the base.

hmmm thats a good idea so that way you don't need as many pregenerated layouts(ei levels) to keep things Fresh

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  • 2 weeks later...
Is there some one who make non linear (more like offices from age ago, not like current farms) and varible(not "balanced") maps(not nessesary completely random but not so static like stock ones)?

I understand Chris "vision" and this is not suggestion, but this is not what I want, this is why I look for something from community.

My farm, arctic and desert maps have some random elements in. The farm ones are the "most" random, with fields that will have different features in (sparse, lots of sight-blockers, lots of cover, and so on). The random elements in my arctic and desert maps are generally the scenery. Industrial/town maps in Stinky Pack 2 don't have randomised buildings, just some props (like cars) that may/may not be there. The more complicated the layout tends to be, the harder it is to pull off random maps.

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