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Research suggestion: Nightvision goggles


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so it seems a lot of you missed my original post back on page 2 so here is the mechanics side of it

So here is my suggestions when it comes to nightvision in the game.

Should already be a usable feature in the game from the start. In terms of game mechanics I would suggest that it work something like this. Turn it on: sight range is modified so that your team has shadowy view out to their normal/Daytime sight range. otherwise their clearly visible range remains unchanged. However while night vision is on the Xenonauts take a 10% penalty on accuracy since 3rd gen night vision goggles and weapons sights did not get along very much.

Also add a research tech of Infrared Night vision. Once researched this would reduce the accuracy penalty to 5% and simply add a white outline to any "Living Creatures" within sight range (civilian, local forces, aliens, but not The robots!) and it should be difficult to accurately identify them, so that faint white outline could be a civilian or an alien who knows.

That arrangement would make it a worthwhile research investment from the players standpoint yet still make night battles a fun/Challenging/terrifying experience and not break any of the balance of the game.

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so it seems a lot of you missed my original post back on page 2 so here is the mechanics side of it

So here is my suggestions when it comes to nightvision in the game.

Should already be a usable feature in the game from the start. In terms of game mechanics I would suggest that it work something like this. Turn it on: sight range is modified so that your team has shadowy view out to their normal/Daytime sight range. otherwise their clearly visible range remains unchanged. However while night vision is on the Xenonauts take a 10% penalty on accuracy since 3rd gen night vision goggles and weapons sights did not get along very much.

Also add a research tech of Infrared Night vision. Once researched this would reduce the accuracy penalty to 5% and simply add a white outline to any "Living Creatures" within sight range (civilian, local forces, aliens, but not The robots!) and it should be difficult to accurately identify them, so that faint white outline could be a civilian or an alien who knows.

That arrangement would make it a worthwhile research investment from the players standpoint yet still make night battles a fun/Challenging/terrifying experience and not break any of the balance of the game.

That'd be better, since it wouldn't make the night, day, so to speak. However, I'd increase the accuracy penalty to something more, otherwise every player would simply take the hit in exchange for more sight range. It should be so that you only want your scouts using it, since if your shooters are using it, not only will they be farther away from their target once it's acquired (reducing accuracy due to range) but they'd also get a nasty penalty since NVG were really bad with the sights, especially with scopes, I'd imagine.

So, if the above quoted idea were implemented, the accuracy penalty would have to be increased for the regular NVG.

However, the IR goggles could be standard on the scout armors, making them more useful for night combat. I'd go for that over making separate IR goggles to replace the NVG.

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How would that work with squad sight?

The person using the goggles to spot would get a penalty but everyone else would be able to fire into the dark with no accuracy penalty from the way the suggestion is worded.

Also outlining sprites is not possible in the game engine.

Another method would need to be selected to show who can be seen.

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That'd be better, since it wouldn't make the night, day, so to speak. However, I'd increase the accuracy penalty to something more, otherwise every player would simply take the hit in exchange for more sight range. It should be so that you only want your scouts using it, since if your shooters are using it, not only will they be farther away from their target once it's acquired (reducing accuracy due to range) but they'd also get a nasty penalty since NVG were really bad with the sights, especially with scopes, I'd imagine.

So, if the above quoted idea were implemented, the accuracy penalty would have to be increased for the regular NVG.

However, the IR goggles could be standard on the scout armors, making them more useful for night combat. I'd go for that over making separate IR goggles to replace the NVG.

The whole point is to have it an all or nothing system.

On; all units get the bonus to vision range and penalties to accuracy

Off; back to normal night time sight range and accuracy.

That is the reason for the general accuracy penalty rather than something bigger, if your using it your long range shooters are gonna get that penalty as well. Besides the accuracy penalty is only supposed to cause just enough hindrance to make your effective engagement range only slightly better then it currently is but still below normal daytime ranges.

The idea is to allow improved night time sight range but have the accuracy penalties still force you to have a slightly reduced engagement range at night

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The more likely meta game answer that most people will likely come to with such a system in night battles is likely going to be something like this...

Night vision on; maneuver troops and detect enemies rough position.

Switch night Vision off and toss flare into general area where hostile is located

Long range fighters engage target in the marked area.

Really my suggestion is more for improved night time navigation. allowing you to see terrain almost out to your normal sight range but in that shadowy quality you normally get at the edge of your light range now.

That way your not hopelessly sending a scout out to where you "hope" there might be some cover for him to work with.

you want a system the compliments the existing "flare" system rather then negating it and still makes night battles a more challenging task.

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I'm just thinking that the first time someone fired an energy weapon, or saw a streetlamp, or some other light source, they'd become useless and have to be readjusted, either manually or just through waiting for them to adjust.

Why not implement them like this? This way you wouldn't equip all xenonauts with them all the time and mitigate night missions. As soon as something in the night-vision unit's FoV fires, or a light source enters it, they become "blind" (perhaps for the duration of the turn or more). That way they only work as advanced scouts so that your xenonauts aren't constantly getting sniped off by things they never even saw. But you wouldn't just be able to keep eyes on the aliens during a firefight.

Edit: also, I'm thinking they would be equipment in some slot (maybe the primary weapon slot) so to shoot things you would have to un-equip the goggles, then re-equip your weapon (or use a pistol) before firing.

Edited by Person012345
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The more likely meta game answer that most people will likely come to with such a system in night battles is likely going to be something like this...

Night vision on; maneuver troops and detect enemies rough position.

Switch night Vision off and toss flare into general area where hostile is located

Long range fighters engage target in the marked area.

Really my suggestion is more for improved night time navigation. allowing you to see terrain almost out to your normal sight range but in that shadowy quality you normally get at the edge of your light range now.

That way your not hopelessly sending a scout out to where you "hope" there might be some cover for him to work with.

you want a system the compliments the existing "flare" system rather then negating it and still makes night battles a more challenging task.

You bring up a good point.

I like your idea, now that I understand it (I think).

So, to clarify, you suggest that night vision would allow you to see props, terrain, etc farther than you currently can, but aliens could still be seen at the current night mission range? I would tack an accuracy penalty on top of that as well, for balance and also because goggles don't work well with sights ofttimes, or at least it makes them more cumbersome.

I'm going to post my own flavor of how I'm interpreting your idea as a comment, and maybe as it's own thread if people like it. This one's too cluttered.

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So, Night Vision Device (NVD):

People have wanted a NVD for night missions to make them easier. We shouldn't simply make them turn night into day, as it were, by removing all of the sight penalty, however. That would ruin the difference between them, and take out the nocturnal half of the gameplay experience. There should also be some sort of penalty for using the NVD, to avoid universal equipping of your soldiers with them, since that's no fun at all. Ideally, they should also be improved on by alien technology, indicating that humanity is updating and improving everything they have, not just guns, planes, etc.

Perhaps one of the biggest issues is how to equip the NVDs using the current UI.

Well, I have an idea (based on my interpretation of Wrath_IX's idea) that could address all of these concerns.

It was TL;DR worthy, so I've compressed it.

As for how to equip the NVD:

Why don't we use armors? They already have the ability to increase/decrease vision, and the UI is in place for different armors to be equipped.

We'd have the normal (current) armor, and NVD-equipped variants of that armor. (example "No Armor (NVD)", "Buzzard Armor (NVD)", etc). To keep it more simple, I think that keeping it limited to "scout" armors (No Armor, Buzzard Armor) would be best, for balance reasons (there's a trade off there, better vision or less armor.

How this would work:

We have a really short research "Night Vision Device" either available right off the bat, or after we have our first night mission. This describes the mechanics and differences of NVD-Equipped armor vs regular armor, which are as follows:

-Increased sight range for props and terrain only (still sub-day vision) (+3 tiles? +4 tiles?)

-Same sight range for aliens/civilians/local forces (no change in sight range from the norm).

-Moderate accuracy penalty (-25%? -30%?)

-Heavier weight (+5 kg?)

-Other than the above, exactly the same as the regular, non-NVD version of the armor

The increased vision range beyond the normal night range would be shadowy (covered in fog) and only update for props, walls, terrain, etc. This is to encourage you to continue to use flares, which offer full illumination, and not just shadowy illumination. That way you'd still have to get closer to the enemy to actually see them, keeping the difference between night and day missions.

The range at which you can see the actual life forms (aliens, civilians, local forces) would be kept the same since while they're "brighter", patterns are harder to see, effectively canceling each other out. Does that make sense?

Besides, it makes the balancing better.

Later in the game, as part of the requirements for the scout armor after buzzard, we could research "Advanced Night Vision Device". Advanced NVDs could use an alien "life-detector" technology, which could be a heartbeat sensor, advanced IR technology, an electromagnetic field sensor (I especially like that one) or whatever sounds cool.

This Advanced NVD would be integrated into the highest scout armor, and provide longer sight range both for props/terrain and aliens (so, normal vision, not shadowy). But, it would still not have as long of sight range as the day missions. It would also not have an accuracy penalty. So, in essence, the highest scout armor would simply have a significantly longer night vision range than other armors.

TL;DR:

Basically, have duplicate armors ("No Armor (NVD)", "Buzzard Armor (NVD)") that has increased "shadowy illumination" sight range that shows props/terrain only, but not aliens. The regular night sight range would still be used for detecting aliens. These duplicate armors would be heavier, and have an accuracy penalty (since NVD don't work well with weapon sights). Unlocking the NVD-equipped variants would require a research, which would be unlocked either at the start of the game, or after the first night mission.

The top (after buzzard) scout armor would have an integrated Advanced NVD as part of the main armor, which has no accuracy penalty, and no added weight, and increases night sight range for props/terrain and aliens significantly (but still less than day time sight ranges). There would be a research for Advanced NVG that was required (or was a part of the research required) for the top scout armor.

Afterthought:

The above system is really complicated, and honestly I don't know if it'd be worth the trouble.

I'd appreciate it, don't get me wrong, but the devs have better things to do than make NVDs possible, and the current flare-based system works just fine for me, at least. NVDs aren't a priority for me. I'd rather they focus on making the game, not adding niche content.

Edited by GizmoGomez
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I still dont agree with enhancing night fighting, or giving the player the ability to negate or minimize it.

I understand:

Night Vision Makes sense

I think night missions are too hard

This would be fun and cool and change up the tactics.

But I still think Night missions are more for the theme and danger, and should stick to what it is.

Really all the things you are mentioning to mitigate it are already mitigated by proper use of smoke grenades...if you use them you essentially gain back most of what night time missions take away from you.

Night reduces your sight, smoke grenades take away Alien sight distances. So it still functions as an equalizer that reduces difficulty to the point you are just asked to go about clearing the map more slowly and safely...edges are your friend to prevent getting flanked in the darkness...

And mentioning Night Missions and XCOM causes a crowd of 30 year old neckbeards to have a moment of Post Traumatic Stress flare up, along with a mild panic attack and sends them reaching for their inhalers...

(This is the way it should be)

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If you don't want to make night missions easier, then don't force them on me the moment the first terror mission arrives. Seriously, the first 4 terror missions I had started at nightfall and ended by daybreak. I was starting to think they only happened at night (makes some sense) but then one happened to new york during the day time (and I eventually had a terror mission where half me team didn't get slaughtered disembarking the chopper).

OK, so ignoring terror missions doesn't do anything at the moment, but I assume that's a bug that will be fixed.

I see nothing wrong with a mechanic similar to the one I posted that gives you penalties for using it, but takes away the irritating "1-shot from way outside of view range" crap, at least for easier difficulties (nerf the goggles on harder difficulties if you like)

Edited by Person012345
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If you don't want to make night missions easier, then don't force them on me the moment the first terror mission arrives. Seriously, the first 4 terror missions I had started at nightfall and ended by daybreak. I was starting to think they only happened at night (makes some sense) but then one happened to new york during the day time (and I eventually had a terror mission where half me team didn't get slaughtered disembarking the chopper).

OK, so ignoring terror missions doesn't do anything at the moment, but I assume that's a bug that will be fixed.

I see nothing wrong with a mechanic similar to the one I posted that gives you penalties for using it, but takes away the irritating "1-shot from way outside of view range" crap, at least for easier difficulties (nerf the goggles on harder difficulties if you like)

If you ignore a Terror mission, they nuke the city (The humans do) and you get a huge penalty with the Funding Nation of that region.

You CAN make your dropship patrol once it gets to the target location and not engage until daytime.

Sometimes you cant, but its more a situation of where is your base vs the terror mission that determines this.

And again like I said, use smoke grenades properly. I carry 3-5 on every Soldier personally.

In XCOM, standard tactics was to toss a smoke grenade on your first turn, not move anyone and end turn.

Then on the second turn you could safely step out never being "shot from the darkness" from reaction fire.

If they cant see you they cant reaction fire on you...

I dont know "exactly" how smoke grenades function in this game compared to XCOM...but I have been using them assuming it was essentially the same and have gotten expected results.

For example, lets say Aliens can see for 20 tiles. Outside of that range they cant see you to shoot you.

What smoke grenades do is make any tile they affect (Titles with smoke on them) count for 2 tiles of vision instead of one.

So if you have an Alien directly in front of you, he can see for 20 tiles...so if you are 20 titles away he can shoot you, however if there are say 5 tiles of smoke BETWEEN you and the Alien, those 5 tiles count as 10 tiles now.

20 tiles - 5 affected by smoke = 15 tiles. 5 smoke tiles = 10 normal tiles. 15 + 10 = 25.

So realize the proper use isnt STANDING INSIDE a smoke screen it is putting a smoke screen BETWEEN you and the Alien.

So just move slower, and toss smoke grenades AHEAD of you, and then the next turn move to the edge of the smoke (Not through it), and then throw another to continue scouting forward.

I think lack of understanding in how smoke grenades work might be the only reason this thread even exists.

Keep in mind I dont know the mechanics behind smoke grenades in this game, and I and simply describing how they worked in XCOM94, but in using them the same way and assuming they do, I havent had a single unexpected result.

Also I'm not counting tiles in Xenonauts, so just use the between you and the Alien Tactic and you should quickly learn safe distances and proper usage.

Edited by Mytheos
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And I have only lost 1 soldier so far on a night mission, ( Done maybe 4-6? I know 3 of those were Terror) it was a rookie and it was due to a mis-click that sent the rookie running a maximum distance into the unknown before I could stop her.

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And just to further my point, I havent ever used a combat shield nor have I ever used armor on a night mission.

(I was in January on 19-2 and I owned 2 sets of Wolf Armor by then and that was it, never used a combat shield in my game yet)

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... due to a mis-click that sent the rookie running a maximum distance into the unknown before I could stop her.

Just a helpful tidbit (that you may already know); hitting the spacebar stops all movement where they are, so if you misclick, hit the spacebar immediately before too much damage is done.

Hope that helps. :)

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Also thought about this but then came to the conclusion that there would be no difference between night and day battles. Night battles should have at least a little spooky/fear factor with them. So I did almost the exact same thing to my previous version as the devs did to the latest release. Improved flare ranges, larger radius, and only slightly cheaper because they have no weight. Although the devs tend to make TOO big of changes when someone complains. Ending up too easy or way too hard. So I feel grenades in general are too damn cheep to throw now. If only folks would know how to use them in the first place lolz.

Here's a good balance for flair stats if you wanna mod it in your game. Real easy to do.

The range is fine on them because of the way flares work in-game you don't want them to be thrown beyond your soldier's site range or he'll have to move closer to see the flair. It's real odd how it works, sense they work on the same principals as grenades. Anyways, just leave the range alone.

What you do want to change is the "radius". Because they will only light up a radius around it, the base 5 radius isn't nearly enough to make up for the fact that your soldiers still can't see more than 5 to the sides of the flair. So change the radius number to something between 7-10. In this way, night battles are still more challenging and take longer then during the day but it won't feel like all you do is pitch hundreds of flairs the entire battle. I personally use 8 as a radius in my game and it feels about right to me(night missions are much more tolerable). But use what you want. If you wanted to cheese the entire night missions you could set the radius to 1000 or something but what's the fun in that?

Edited by 200down
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