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What's wrong with beta. My version


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After some fighting on alien battlegrounds and forum posts I decided to write what I think about Beta (which I think is Alpha:)

For me this Beta is completely unplayable. I can't follow it. Some research should be done manually, some research is done automatically (autopsy and ufo's). Maybe it is fun, but not for me. Research is researching. There should be some mystery.

Manufacture... I can't build something for money. It was very important part of original series. Now I can build something and sell it in half price. Full inability to manufacture my own advanced weaponry (like lasers and gauss).

Geoscape - there are some events and they are fun.

Base Construction - it is a pity I can't build my base on an Island of Crete. I think there are many dead spot's around the globe.

I am completely lost which base building does what. I can't click on it and see. Tooltips suck. No xenopedia articles on base buildings. And I have no idea why i should build something. Especially medical center - the only building which is not prebuild on my base.

Short radar, long range radar - why not two different radar stations ? but that's a minor.

Xenopedia - no articles for base buildings. No articles on default weapons.

Default weapons - no different bullet types. And why are they infinite? Also why standard grenades are replaced by advanced grenades automatically? That's a micromanagement we all loved in original series. Shotguns - why are they better then m16? Never killed anybody with them. Playing on veteran and aliens a too tough for them?

Have no idea how default combat roles are assigned and what stats are good for which combat roles.

Difficulty levels - why are aliens became tougher and tougher with time? They grow thicker skins? That suck. Nevertheless it's far better to increase amount of aliens, for me... But AI i so passive now, even on veteran. Maybe ambushed aliens eat medkits or what, but it be much difficult if they try to shoot. Or retreat.

And for me alien placement on map is too random. But god bless they don't use grenades. But battle itself have many issues, maybe I'll write another post on this.

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Some of these are design choices the devs made, for example in the original X-COM funding nations don't matter because you can self-fund with laser cannons, and they want to make maintaining relations with countries matter. They also chose to not require purchasing/building ammo because frankly many of us did not enjoy micromanaging ammo in the OG since it was really just busy work that didn't involve any real choices.

Same aliens don't get tougher, however you do see non-combatants replaced by soldiers and officers of the same race as time goes on. Shotguns are pretty terrible now, but balancing combat is one of the main areas of focus.

Agreed that the (soon to be replaces) UI leaves much to be desired. The plan is for some system of popups/tooltips that does explain what everything is/does, but that will likely noy be implemented until just before release (otherwise the devs would have to spend time updating it everytime they change something.)where. I do agree that Xenopedia entries for the base structures (or better explanation in the base overview) would be helpful for new players. And there is an entry for ballistic weapons, but it is incomplete at this time.

And the aliens are supposed to use grenades, but the AI is still very much a work in progress.

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Good points and questions yatagarasu. As Dranak said, a number of these were made consciously during the game's development.

Research: There was a desire to remove any "wasted" research, i..e. research that doesn't directly lead to something else. This was coupled with wanting to have new topics, but not to make it overly complicated or unbalanced. For example, in UFO:ET there can seem to be too many tiers being reached before really getting to implement them fully. So, that lead to some of the flavour topics being automatic. There should be enough twists and compelling interest/need in the research to keep the area moving forward fairly swiftly.

Manufacturing: I believe the devs wanting to make Xenonauts far more dependant on the funding nations, as we're all in it together. In EU1994, your success was often more to do with the manufacturing profits than keeping the people you're protecting happy.

Geoscape: Events are a nice touch. Personally, that's somewhere I would have liked to see much more on. But the devs are focused (not to obliviousness of everything else, but focused) on the meat of the game which is the Battlescape.

Base Construction - The map will be getting a new look, so we'll see how many dead spots there are on it then. Likewise, the new Ui will have more of the things you're looking for here, I think. I agree with the lack of information on them currently, but the new UI has been getting worked on for a while, so little point in tweaking something that may get changed anyway.

Xenopedia - Not sure about entries for starting facilities and equipment. If they don;t appear, then hopefully new UI information willl add the clarity there.

Default weapons - The types of weapons have roles within the game. By allowing different types to blur those boundaries may reduce the impact of the roles of certain weapon types. They are infinite because Xenonauts is getting funded by every armed nation on the planet. The devs felt that being charged for every bullet was not needed, likewise with storing.

There's till weapon balancing going on, so you should see strengths for all weapon types by the release.

Roles: I start the High Strength guys off with Rocket Launchers. Once they have a few missions I move one of them to have a LMG (which I've found a little awkward on a starting soldier in the past). Accuracy for Snipers, and Resilience for the guys who will get the shotguns and pistols. This is to reflect their roles as the guys who will breach UFOs and deal with the enemy at close quarters.

Assigning the roles and changing default loadouts etc is done by clicking the red role button.

Difficulty levels - AI and difficulty levels are all being adjusted in Beta to get that balance you're looking for. Alien placement was really repetitive on the last build I played in depth, so that may have gone in the other direction.

Look forward to more questions/ comments.

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Some of these are design choices the devs made, for example in the original X-COM funding nations don't matter because you can self-fund with laser cannons, and they want to make maintaining relations with countries matter. They also chose to not require purchasing/building ammo because frankly many of us did not enjoy micromanaging ammo in the OG since it was really just busy work that didn't involve any real choices.

Yep, the desire to force more hardcore type of play maybe good. But the game is a number of options. Why force all players to players the same game? Why not providing different possibilities? For example players who maintain good relationship with countries, can have different ending, or have it mentioned in final score. On the other side smuggling on a black market can spoil your relationship with countries. On a veteran or hardcore level battle in the beginning can be very intense. So soldiers can by dying much faster than you can re recruit new. You can save your soldiers by sacrificing some tanks on the battlefield - but tanks are to expensive, and you have no option to earn money.

Research: There was a desire to remove any "wasted" research, i..e. research that doesn't directly lead to something else. This was coupled with wanting to have new topics, but not to make it overly complicated or unbalanced. For example, in UFO:ET there can seem to be too many tiers being reached before really getting to implement them fully. So, that lead to some of the flavour topics being automatic. There should be enough twists and compelling interest/need in the research to keep the area moving forward fairly swiftly.

Wasted research is good for me. First of all it leads to some uncertainty what I should research next? Does autopsy of caesean give's me some advance in psy research or it is fully informational. Does research of scout UFO gives some battle tactics or it is a waste of time? Also many researches should be done just for your final score. You researched 99% of technologies - oh that suck, I should play the game again and find this lost 1%. It is fun. You can find such options in Castlevania and Metroid an other jap games. And good ending scores where in Civilization and Colonization - good place to look.

Xenopedia - Not sure about entries for starting facilities and equipment. If they don;t appear, then hopefully new UI information willl add the clarity there.

I think that a must. It is a game standard - If the game have some kind of encyclopedia there are articles about every game item, building or unit. Look in ufopaedia. Look in civilization's civopedia - it even have all it's game mechanics described in it.

Default weapons - The types of weapons have roles within the game. By allowing different types to blur those boundaries may reduce the impact of the roles of certain weapon types. They are infinite because Xenonauts is getting funded by every armed nation on the planet. The devs felt that being charged for every bullet was not needed, likewise with storing.

Personally I don't like simplifications. It some casual elements, it is like game telling you how you should play.

You researched advanced weapons - no you have no option to use old ones.

That was how xcom:eu was made. The game which shows you all it's beauty, but does not allow to play with it.

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Wasted research is good for me. First of all it leads to some uncertainty what I should research next? Does autopsy of caesean give's me some advance in psy research or it is fully informational. Does research of scout UFO gives some battle tactics or it is a waste of time? Also many researches should be done just for your final score. You researched 99% of technologies - oh that suck, I should play the game again and find this lost 1%. It is fun. You can find such options in Castlevania and Metroid an other jap games. And good ending scores where in Civilization and Colonization - good place to look.

I agree with the idea that there really shouldn't be such a thing as wasted research. How useful the research becomes, is a different thing for me. For example, in EU1994 Alien Entertainment was "wasted" research. Rather than simply abandon it, I would have shown that it is used to keep races docile (Zeta Reticuli's Got Talent on a loop). Therefore it provides a small increase in programming troops is Psi-Training (should such a thing appear). So, it's now slightly useful, if not vital, and also provides some background flavour on how the alien hierarchy operates.

I also feel that choice is a vital part of research. Should you go with Medikit, Laser Weapons or Motion Scanners should all be viable strategies. That should be replicated here. There should always be choices available that enable the player to take the game in different directions. It promotes different game styles, and there should be multiple ways of still getting through the core research before the game beats you.

In Xenonauts, there's the added pressure of the event ticker. Keeping your eye on the key stuff is more important as there's only going to be so long that you can hold out. Different games can enable you to explore different topics, but the game wouldn't be working too well if it allowed you to do everything without the aliens wiping you out. That feeds a little into your first point. With resources so tightly stretched, there could be an element of sacrifice in Xenonauts. You may, if not always then often, have to let a nation go, just to obtain overall victory. Hard to say as there's so much balancing to be done.

I think that a must. It is a game standard - If the game have some kind of encyclopedia there are articles about every game item, building or unit. Look in ufopaedia. Look in civilization's civopedia - it even have all it's game mechanics described in it.

The autopsies and craft were only recently added. As there's at least basic understanding on what the starting facilities and weapons are supposed to do, I imagine that this one was quite far down the pecking order of things to do. Doesn't mean it won't be there in the end.

Personally I don't like simplifications. It some casual elements, it is like game telling you how you should play.

You researched advanced weapons - no you have no option to use old ones. That was how xcom:eu was made. The game which shows you all it's beauty, but does not allow to play with it.

I was happy to see the different weapon types and less than happy to see unlimited ammo go. Now, the unlimited ammo doesn't bother me, and makes sense to me. The weapon types are all viable (except when you see them cropping up in the balancing discussions, but that's ongoing.) and work well.

It's not the game telling you what to do, so much as providing you with different weapons to do what you want, rather than one super-versatile weapon. There are mods around, and others that can be created that play around with the clips, effects and fire modes of the weapons.

I agree with you on the auto-update of facilities and tiers. there are situations where the older weapons are useful. That and auto-update facilities are things I'm still having to get used to.

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In Xenonauts, there's the added pressure of the event ticker. Keeping your eye on the key stuff is more important as there's only going to be so long that you can hold out. Different games can enable you to explore different topics, but the game wouldn't be working too well if it allowed you to do everything without the aliens wiping you out. That feeds a little into your first point. With resources so tightly stretched, there could be an element of sacrifice in Xenonauts. You may, if not always then often, have to let a nation go, just to obtain overall victory. Hard to say as there's so much balancing to be done.

So yes, it's up to you to waste valuable time or research really useful things. What the point in increasing pressure and leaving with only right choices. I want to make my choices. Not to journey from A to B with various difficulties.

If you need to research tech B, to go from A to C and get weapon W. Than it is pure gamedesign choice if research time needed for getting W is time to research B and time to research C. Of course there should be some story, why this researches are needed.

But I don't think that openly giving waste researches for free is good. It cuts the possibility of your error. It can be a strategic error. I think nobody would argue that it is bad - the possibility to make a tactical error in battlescape.

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The feeling with some people has been one of frustration that the research path they chose resulted in them missing out in the end game. Personally, I've never had that happen, but that's what I pick up form reading other posts. If you add in something like the Ticker of Doom, then that frustration is only going to get worse.

I agree with you, openly wasteful dead-end research isn't a good thing. But a variety of different strategic paths through the research is a good thing. Ideally, I don't think there should really be "right" choices, with your decisions resulting in differing outcomes. However, the reality in X-Com games is that there are critical research paths that have to be taken to get to the final mission. So, there are "right" choices to be made.

Secondary choices such as aircraft enhancement or weapon enhancement or armour add strong strategic choices underneath.

Below that is where the question of content matching outcome is probably more of an issue. As long as the benefits aren't totally outweighed by the effort in resource to get there, I think it can add extra depth to the game. There's my Alien Entertainment example above, or...

Dr. Petra: Sir! We've cracked it! Finally!

Sgt thothkins: About time! It's been months. Now we'll show the aliens!

Dr. Petra: Yes sir! Show them that our omelettes are the best, with our new atomic egg whisk!

Sgt thothkins: Hurray! What?

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I killed my final mission research. I don't know if I strayed from the path by getting an officer before 'alien officer interrogation' and/or by getting a leader before alien leader interrogation, however, I was unable to finish the game without modifying the game files. I disagree with your ;wide research tree' idea, simply because after one playthrough you'll know what leads to what, or a week after release, there's going to be a wiki up with a detailed research tree. Then your biggest decision will be whether to go for beter weapons or armor first. I like the instant autopsies, because cutting a dead creature up and looking at the stuff inside doesn't take a single expert more than a few hours at best, and having to set up a project for that is filler content, not actual gameplay, just like building ammo.

If you've ever played EU:1994, you'd know the only time you fiddled with ammo was when you bought a pile of it in the beginning - later you'd get infinite ammo laser rifles, and after that you'd switch straight to heavy plasmas, the ammo for which you'd pry out of dead aliens' hands by the truckload. So, buying ammo here is entirely filler, again. If you asked me, I'd make the laser weaponary contain infinite ammo anyway.

I do however agree that we should be able to build and sell stuff for a profit. While the limited amount of cash we get for items does make us protect the nations more, to get their funding, you should also remember that now we only have 10 entities to protect, not 100 biggest countries, so the incentive is there already anyway, since losing one of them is as big a blow as losing the US was in EU1994 (yes yes, we all built bases there). It is also far-fetched that the items we have should sell for less than 100k a pop - after all it's advanced tech centuries ahead of human tech.

Also I believe either alien entertainment or alien food has made it into the game - maybe both - in the form of cow carcasses in consoles in UFOs/alien bases.

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While I dissagree on many current features like unlimited ammo and such, I agree its actually good for the game as it makes it more accesible for everyone.

NOW, what matters is that you can heavily mod the game to get back manufactured ammo, sell for profit and the likes. Many of the "xcom purist" stuff can be brought back so no fears. You have Sathra´s Mod wich have manufactures back already, along with many nice tweaks.Its not for v19 yet of course, but sure will get updated (hopes hopes soon).

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Actually, I'm going to release a new version today (V5) with some new manufactures and Xenopedia stuff.

If there's interest I'll make V5X for the experimental branch (after I play it a bit to try out the new stuff!)

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I'm not sure whether my vote will count for anything, but I like the fact you don't need to buy clips and small arms. Back in Enemy Unknown, it sure felt weird to me that I need to fight tooth and nail to get funding for such basic stuff from the world economies I'm supposed to protect... It made me feel like I'm more of a political excuse than real Earth defence forces. Which is awesome and inspiring in its own right, but I think it wouldn't be as fitting in 1979 as in 1999; the 1979 political reality was completely different, nations regarded each other more seriously due to the East - West competition, the nuclear threat and so on. So unlimited small arms is yes.

Speaking of small arms, it irks me that at a certain level I have to painstakingly produce laser weaponry while every single policeman on Earth has one. Wouldn't it make sense to make lasers unlimited and free to once they enter widespread use? Obviously they must be mass-produced somewhere, which means there's a lot of them and they're bound to be much,much cheaper than your prototypes (that's why your lasers are so cheap when you try to sell them; they're prototypes competing against large companies).

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Quite honestly the only thing that realy puts me off its the % to hit calculations. Quite honestly i think i've scored more "impossible" 0% chance shots on the aliens than >20% chance to hit ones.

Even tough for purposes of balancing i understand that the rookie soldiers should be much weaker than later in the game hardcore veterans in therms of accuracy sometimes i am extremely close to the aliens and still i have 20-30% to hit with a rifle and then i miss most of the time.

I understand the concepts of RNG and i understand what is a percentage to hit, but i've spent over 20 hours shooting things and it's gone to the point that a 0% chance has for me a more confidence that a 8-10-20% one and i expect soldiers to MISS most of the time instead of hitting the most basic shots.

it seems to me that the chance to hit calculations are off. Either that or there's a bug lurking around in the code. I understand that rookies should miss more, but not miss 80% of the time, after all they are trained and are not village people that has a new gun on their hands, right?

:) Everything else in the game is good except the caesians i think could have more character. Still in beta and all, new UI poping up each build and things are going good, but this hit/miss chances realy make me not want to play again untill its better.

Oh i nearly forgot, i also don't like that aliens are artificialy made tougher while game progresses. A much better aproach would be to make them MORE in numbers, instead of making us believe they have better invisible armor or their skin is tougher because... they have better sun blockers? ;)

Cheers

Edited by Knightpt
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