Indestructible interceptors?

Gaudlike, of course you can twist words and then see what you twisted as silly.

It is called a strawman argument

Are they invulnerable? no

Do they do an emergency speed boosted escape manouver, emergency disengage when they're too heavily damaged to continue to fight? yes

Why go out of your way to change the whole game balance and lore just to support that strawman argument?

And just in case the following reaction is to strengthen the strawman argument itself and try to prove that it is illogical for fighter craft to preform an emergency disengagement manouver:

The xenonaut fighters are faster than the alien craft under atmospheric conditions, given that they can chase and intercept them. So it's logical they can escape too.

Also, such a disengagement manouver is common practice in aircombat (or at least was common, when there was such a thing as air combat in history) in the face of overwhelming odds.

You had many airplanes in WW2 and beyond limp back to base damaged. Of course, back then one good shot was enough to destroy the airplane, and in xenonauts we see that this is not the case, and it actually takes several shots from a scout to down a condor, so we can suppose that the condor pilot can understand that the next shot will be the one that kill him, and opts to escape.

So in game terms they are indestructible you mean?

Maybe I should have used indestructible instead of invulnerable sorry.

Invulnerable would suggest they are immune to damage which is clearly not the suggestion, just a poor choice of words on my part.

Although once they get below your magic 5% they do become invulnerable as they would be unable to take further damage or be attacked further.

The rest of the post still stands.

Careful guys, don't let this get too heated.

I don't think you need to make the Condor or the Mig indestructable. Given their current prices, if you're losing Condors or MiGs at a rate that you're actually put out of the game in the first couple of months, then I think you need to rethink your air battle tactics.

Well, if we reach the conclusion that they are faster than the aliens, that they can take enough damage to know that the next shot will likely kill them, and that they are indeed not indestructible or invulnerable, then I think there is no 'logical' problem with them preforming an emergency disengage manouver and escaping. Perhaps doing a quick dive downwards, etc. Something that the alien craft won't be able to do given that the xeno craft is much better suited to atmospheric flight.

So what's the problem?

Manga, the reason you have to build the Migs is because, while the Soviet Union is willing to provide the base airframe, they don't want to provide their advanced avionics system. No matter, because the Xenonauts have a better anti-UFO avionics system. That's why the Mig is so fast to build relative to later planes -- you're just building and installing an avionics system, not building it from scratch. This is all covered in the Xenopedia, btw.

And Lightzy, with all your talk about how much losing an interceptor costs... tell me: How far, exactly, have you gotten in the game? Corsairs, maybe? Because Corsairs are, interestingly enough, not necessary. I pushed through to Marauders and every Corsair I built died within a couple of missions, due to bad luck or command incompetence.

And Marauders, well, if you ask me: Someone who manages to lose a Marauder deserves to take a big hit. Those things are damn near indestructible as it stands, have a great turn rate, are incredibly fast, and top it all off with roll. I think only the battleship and strike cruiser are even practically capable of destroying one. And since they're so nimble you can dodge right away from the arcs on those giant ships.

They're expensive because they're damn good. Corsairs are a nifty upgrade that help versus heavy fighter patrols, but the ships you have to fight at that time -- landing ships, cruisers, even carriers -- can be handled by the "weaker" Migs and Foxtrots. I know, because I'VE DONE IT. And I'm not some air combat god, I make mistakes. I botch my dodges, I miss good attack runs. The resources provided are more than enough to handle it, this is not a needed crutch.

Air combat is part of the game. Arguing that we should make it easier because you think it's too hard -- oh, wait. You've complained in other threads about things being too hard.

"The fact that all aliens past a certain point have a heavy plasma machine gun which is way more deadly than yours is also... erm... not fun."

By the by -- those alien heavy plasma rifles? Yeah, they hurt. But you know what? You can fight them. They'll probably kill a few of your people, here and there. Maybe even a few of your elites. And losing multiple elites can be as devastating if not more than losing a bird. Now, I picked up on that, and I started a thread about how to mitigate that pain. Not once did I suggest that soldiers should get a magic 100% medevac when they take too much damage. I suggested several possibilities, some of which would likely enhance the depth of the game (Some wouldn't -- I was looking for as many ideas as I could and not all were great ideas), and I proceeded to ask other people to throw in their suggestions.

Pretty stark contrast to yourself, who is refusing to contemplate any path other than the one you prescribe.

Now, as to your lore claims: It's an existing piece of LORE that a shot up plane moves slower than a full-health one. It's an existing piece of LORE that alien heavy fighters are faster than Condors and Migs. So why would a shot-up Mig suddenly move faster than a heavy fighter? Disengagement attempts were, in fact, common in WW2 when there were big air battles. Wanna know how often they worked? Guess. Go ahead. Cite me a source. Cite me one little source telling me that a Condor can magically pull about a hundred g's to get out of a fighter's cannon in under a second. And look, Gauddilike is giving an ALTERNATE SUGGESTION and that just doesn't make you happy, does it? Everything has to go your way.

And yes, I am being mean. I am insulting you. Guess what? I don't care. I doubt anyone else cares, either. Because you're acting like a petulant child.

(Sorry, Sathra. I got heated. Wrote most of this before you posted that, too.)

Careful guys, don't let this get too heated.

Nothing heated about it, I made a poor choice of words and apologised.

There is nothing wrong with being able to retreat.

Disengaging if a fight is not going your way is a valid and logical response.

You can decide at any time to retreat from the battle if you think the risk is not worth the reward.

A magical cutoff where you can no longer take damage is not a tactical or strategic decision however and I fail to see how it can be described as logical.

I would also point out that sticking with the current system and balancing cost and manufacturing time is not changing the whole game balance any more than replacing it with another mechanic and rebalancing around that would be.

I know, just heading it off in case it does.

Why don't we just try something less drastic (changing aircraft cost/manufacture time, which should only require changing variables instead of coding a new feature/mechanic) and see how that works?

Something else les drastic would be slowing the ticker speed, meaning slowing the rate of the invasion a tad, it's way too fast in general imo. It's also not very realistic that we can research and build all these super gears of wars so fast, btw the invasion is supposed to be over in a year? I forget.

I find it almost comical that you don't have any argument that makes sense so you decide I suck at the game.

waldil, did I say the game is too hard? I don't even build corsairs or marauders. you can get by a whole year on just condors and foxtrots if you have plasma missiles and enough sense to have one plane "run away" while the other two stick to the aliens backside and shoot at it, or if it is unescorted, a squad cheap foxtrots all with plasma missiles.

I would actually argue in favor of making it more complex and harder. To make starting craft completely unable to down later alien ships.

However this playstyle of mine is obviously cheating the game, and so air combat needs rebalancing.. it does need to be impossible to down later craft with starting airplanes, and you DO need to lose it once in a while.

As for your suggestion to medevac elites, well, there will soon be a way to circumvent the need for that --- lower level ships are going to come by all through the game now (as I have suggested before in the game balance thread), so that you could train up your rookies properly in a way that doesn't screw up the game or make untenable changes to lore.

But airplanes cost money. You can't train airplanes. And the missions you could not take at all because you had no craft cost money in lost funding and lost artefacts. And since we've come to the conclusion that you need to be able to lose air combat once in a while, there needs to be a system in place which makes this AFFORDABLE.

The most sensible system, based on lore and on game mechanics, is the one that I suggested.

All other systems require a complete rebalancing of the game (yay cheap fast to produce interceptors! I can has 200!) or arbiterary limitations, and on top of that changes to the lore that don't fit.

Manga, the reason you have to build the Migs is because, while the Soviet Union is willing to provide the base airframe, they don't want to provide their advanced avionics system. No matter, because the Xenonauts have a better anti-UFO avionics system. That's why the Mig is so fast to build relative to later planes -- you're just building and installing an avionics system, not building it from scratch. This is all covered in the Xenopedia, btw.

...

So during the Cold War the Soviets want to play second fiddle to an organization that gives them access to advanced weapon technology and where the supporters will be made the saviours of mankind? Yeah, in the Cold War they totally would stand aside... and you get your hands on a great interceptor but don't give its producer and the maintainer of the biggest fleet of Mig-31s the avionics to make them great? Why?

The issue is really that if we take the OG interceptors rarely went out of use. Put plasma cannons on them and they will still do the grunt work in remote areas while the avengers and firestorms target the big ones.

If the attrition rate of Interceptors is supposed to be big, their replacement shouldn't be a game ender. Losing a highend ship should be pretty bad but if you are to mimic a real fight money wouldn't matter. The Soviets or Americans would build this stuff for free to outfit the Xenonauts and then produce this stuff themselves.

While I like the interception screen for flavour I couldn't care less about that minigame tbh.

The most sensible system, based on lore and on game mechanics, is the one that I suggested.

All other systems require a complete rebalancing of the game (yay cheap fast to produce interceptors! I can has 200!) or arbiterary limitations, and on top of that changes to the lore that don't fit.

That's only your opinion, don't try and pass it off as fact.

I disagree with it. Making planes invulnerable when they get to low health (aka, automatic retreat as you put it), isn't something I'd like to see and is completely at odds with the design theme of the game (stuff you use will get destroyed and/or die during the course of the game).

They don't get invulnerable, they just escape. Surely that isn't at odds with game design, seeing as they are notably faster than the alien craft.

If you have a better solution, do write.

But not lore-changing stuff to suddenly turn all skeptical nations who are barely funding the x-com project and who are side by side with the x-com project going into treaty negotiations with the alien invaders into lovely cooperative ardent supporters of the xcom project who are willing to give over everything they have for cheap. Such destruction of the whole game story just to justify the desire for destroyed interceptors is silly

and not game balance destroying ideas like 'make all interceptors cheaper and faster to produce!' which obviously opens a whole can of total focus shift and rebalance for a game where you go from maintaining a few precious and extremely advanced aircraft into air-traffic-control-sim, and also weirding out the lore by making the most unique craft in the world, the only in the whole world who can down an alien ship, into penny-a-dozen like soldiers

Personally I suggest that in addition to making xeno craft do an emergency withdrawal and escape heavily damaged, they become more glorified in the game.. perhaps even ranking up (the pilots, see) with special skills, receiving special names (with nicknames, call-signs for the planes etc), so that there is a whole fair going on around those very few, extremely unique machines who, alone in the world, that can bring down alien craft.

Sort of like in WH40K style, where incredibly powerful machines are idolized, given practically religious significance

Trying out cheaper, faster to build aircraft at the moment. They still take longer and are more expensive than anything else, and most importantly they need hangars​. You can only fit so many in a base and have it still have other functions.

Other functions???? Say whaaaaat?

And no, that wasn't optimized, didn't bother to take the time with it ;p

They don't get invulnerable, they just escape.

They do become invulnerable. Not in the aircombat, but for all intents and purposes they can no longer be destroyed. At all. Which is the same as being invulnerable.

If you have a better solution, do write.

Look back a few pages. I did.

As an aside, my opinion on this is Chris seems to be trying to balance two opposing paradigms on Normal difficulty. He's acknowledged that it's too hard for your average player (I agree), but he's far too worried about good players now having an easy time if he goes off and makes things cheaper and easier.

I think that's an impossible method by which to balance the game, as you've only got two options and they are opposing:

1) Balance it around an average player on Normal.

Pros: Most people can play the game with a good experience, and it's not as punishing for them while they are learning.

Cons: Good players get a fairly easy ride IF they stay on Normal.

2) Balance it around "good" players (which is how it is now).

Pros: Good players get a challenge.

Cons: Average players get battered even on Normal, which puts people off the game, and leads to complaints and a certain reputation.

Conclusions:

Considering the game has fixed difficulty levels rather than a single dynamically altered one (the type that gets harder or easier depending on how well you perform), then it should be balanced around the "average" user.

If the good players find it too easy, well, that's why there are difficulty options available!

In line with that, then I recommend making the Condor and MIG cheaper (lore says you are only paying for modifications after all) and quicker to build, and maybe just tweaking the costs of the later planes slightly.

This is acknowledging that the hardest part of the game is the start when you're building up your bases and due to lack of decent equipment, are suffering losses in both the air and on ground.

In the later game you normally have a small fleet built up, and thanks to no longer having to push a rapid expansion of your base and technology/equipment, you can actually afford the losses. Plus you get more resources from downing the bigger UFO's.

Lightzy the lore is there to support game functions, not the other way round.

If a bit of fluff text is in the way of a feature that works and makes sense then the fluff text is due for change.

There is also no real game balance at the moment regarding air combat and costs, hence the reason for this thread.

Changing a balance that doesn't work is the whole point in beta.

*edit* I agree with buzzles on the difficulty as well.

Balance on normal should allow the average player to play and enjoy the game.

Higher difficulties are where the more experienced player will go (including the average player on future play throughs).

If normal difficulty is too easy for you then try harder difficulty settings.

Balance those to be more of a challenge.

Er...nice base Svidangel? That's alotta Condors.

Amusingly enough it was faster to build a base and add 8-10 condors than build a single maruader. Not too expensive either.

Looking forward to hearing Sathra's results. Hopefully, the hangers, armaments, and waiting times for manufacturing/ arrival will provide the balance.

The most sensible system, based on lore and on game mechanics, is the one that I suggested.

It very unlikely in modern air to air combat that a plane will get to "run away" after a hit. Usually, if the pilot is lucky he ejects, but the plane is toast. Ground fire is usually the only thing that does partial, recoverable, damage. I'm assuming the UFO's have AT LEAST as good of weapons as the Xenonauts (if that were not true we wouldn't be worrying about an invasion, right?) therefore aircraft survivability after a hit should be very low. Goldenhawk is being incredibly generous by letting your planes escape with partial damage. Now you want to make them escape at will?

Psh. Hunters! I finally researched them at the end of January when I ran out of other things to do.

Stellar, that is only true because 1 hit is enough to kill a plane in our world.

In xenonauts a condor can withstand several good hits from a light fighter or a scout, a corsair can withstand several good hits from much larger ships, and a marauder, well..

In xenonauts where airplanes are much much tougher and also faster than enemy craft, it is a very safe assumption that they run away.

Like you would if you were in their shoes

Stellar, that is only true because 1 hit is enough to kill a plane in our world.

In xenonauts a condor can withstand several good hits from a light fighter or a scout, a corsair can withstand several good hits from much larger ships, and a marauder, well..

In xenonauts where airplanes are much much tougher and also faster than enemy craft, it is a very safe assumption that they run away.

Like you would if you were in their shoes