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Aliens, scorched earth, fail-deadly, Iceland Incident, and a few details


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Hi,

This is my first post and I'd like to discuss something that has been bugging me about the setting. Basically, Iceland Incident is a single isolated occurrence that has absolutely no bearing on the rest of the game. Sort of like in original UFO:EU, the intro featured a red-armored Muton and a dropship which never appeared in the game.

Reading it, I assumed that the explosion was caused by weaponizing the reactor and setting it to auto destruct the ship and the surroundings.

I'd like to ask why the aliens do not repeat the incident. I presume they have limitless resources, and even if they don't, aliens should understand the notion of denying the enemy access to their material. If Xenonauts never discover the secrets of how alien reactors work, they can never hope to achieve air superiority or progress beyond Earth orbit, hence they never become a threat.

Even if they are arrogant about their capabilities, they should still have the reactors wired to be fail-deadly and if the alien detachment loses combat, the reactor should automatically explode to deny us access to their power source (if they care) or just wipe out the squad that killed them out of spite.

I suppose this would be seen as a very annoying kick in the teeth, but at the same time, it would fit the theme much better. In time, you would be able to determine the causes of the explosion and learn how to recognize that it's going to go off (to at least allow you a few minutes to a few hours to evacuate your troops), then how to suppress or even prevent it, but until then, you would be at the mercy of aliens never allowing you victory.

Some would probably see it as artificial difficulty, but I never understood the original X-COM games in that aliens never denied you opportunity to gather their artifacts. Whereas by simply blowing up the power core with a single pistol shot would deny you one UFO Power Source and 49 Elerium. Not even on Superhuman difficulty.

Same goes for intact ships landing and being assaulted. They should hear an incoming Skyranger, load up in the UFO, take off and shoot down the transport ship. If they had enough time to set up positions before you landed, they would have had more than enough time to get back in the UFO. If some of them couldn't board the ship for whatever reason, leave them outside, after all, they are expendable. After shooting down the X-COM aircraft, land again. Yeah, it would really be a dick move, but it would be far more realistic than just allowing you to take whatever you please.

For Xenonauts, I would suggest one of two things: add alien scorched earth tactics or rewrite the Iceland Incident. Maybe explain why they can't repeat it.

Still on the topic, it bugged me how easy it was in UFO:EU to blow up the power source (it exploded after being hit with a single pistol shot), and yet how impossible it was to take down a UFO -- one missile explosion near the UFO would have been more than enough, especially if the explosion was nuclear.

Which brings me to the topic of Avalanche -- a supposedly nuclear missile. This also bugged me for different reasons -- you shoot down a UFO using six nuclear warheads and then land and soldiers run around in coveralls? This should be a high-radiation zone and even if aliens are very resistant, I don't think they could survive being hit with six nuclear warheads. There's nothing concerning EMP either. I really hope Xenonauts did not go into this nonsense.

On a final note, I was surprised about MiG-31 and F-16 being used as basis for human interceptors. I know you wanted to have more-or-less equal representation of USA and USSR in the game, but I would suggest that incorrect aircraft were used and for the wrong reasons. MiG-31 is indeed one of the fastest interceptors ever in active service, which makes it an okay choice for a heavy fighter, but it didn't have enough lifting capability. More on that in a moment.

F-16 is (relatively) cheap, first and foremost. But if price is no object, then it's a far less capable fighter than F-15, F-14 or F/A-18 which date from around the same era. F-16XL would have been a more viable competitor against F-15, but as it stands, if Xenonauts are supposed to be equipped with best fighters there are, F-16 would have never been my first choice.

French Mirage 4000, which was in development from Mirage 2000, itself a very capable fighter aircraft, and/or Israeli Kfir, were also good candidates for being included.

When it comes to a maneuverable fighter, however, I would suggest that MiG-29 would have been a better choice than F-16. Su-27 would have made a nice choice alongside F-15.

I guess what bugged me the most about the peculiar choices made by developers is that the aircraft are really much less capable than their counterparts if money is of no object. Another important detail -- their range was much, much worse than comparable aircraft (Su-27 and F-15 have a lot better range than these).

However, Americans had their own high-speed interceptors. YF-12 (related to A-12 Oxcart, itself related to SR-71) was a Mach 3+ capable aircraft. SR-71 itself was capable of sustained (this is very important) Mach 3.3 flight and it could carry a payload of 1.6 tons, which is three Phoenix missiles, eighteen Sidewinders, seven Sparrows or ten AMRAAMs. With less fuel onboard, it could probably carry more and it would be a more viable choice for a high-speed interceptor.

When it comes to heavy fighters, bombers can be made into them (like the proposed B-1R), which would allow incredible payloads (20 times more than SR-71) and very high range. True, they would have nonexistent maneuverability, but if you wanted to deliver as many missiles as you could to a target, it would be the vehicle of my choice. XB-70 Valkyrie had Mach 3 capability, which would make it a good candidate for a fictional basis for a high speed heavy interceptor.

My suggestion would be to increase the number of aircraft you can operate to 4 and change them to:

1. Hypersonic very heavy interceptor (developed from a supersonic bomber). Low survivability would ensure that they are used only when they are really needed.

2. Hypersonic heavy interceptor (developed from SR-71). Better survivability thanks to smaller size, but much less ordnance.

3. Ordinary heavy fighter based on Su-27.

4. Multirole fighter based on F-15 (or Mirage 2000/4000).

Good luck on the project, I'll be sure to watch it closely!

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First things first, the Avalanche isn't nuclear. It's a big bomb on a rocket.

As for why the aliens don't blow their reactors when they get assaulted, who knows, they're aliens! Haha, but seriously it probably takes more time than they have. They had hours to prep it to blow. They arrived at a planet, got nuked almost immediately then had several hours knowing they'd be attacked without any support close enough to help them. Might as well blow the ship to prevent capture.

During the time the game is set its not a scouting mission anymore, its a full blown invasion. Losses are expected, and there are dozens of ships at least that could rescue them. Probably by the time they realise they're being attacked there isn't time to set the reactor to blow. Or they simply just think they're going to be rescued and doubt that the natives to be a problem. Afterwards, yeah, the Xenonauts probably have some way to stop the self-destruct.

As for all the aircraft stuff, how many players are really going to recognise the difference. As it is there are 3 basic aircraft. Dropship, fighter, missile platform. Neat and simple. It starts blurring later on with the advanced craft but the point stands. As it is, what most players will recognise is "oh that's like an F-15 and that's a Mig!".

You'll be glad to know there's already a mod that adds something like 20 aircraft too.

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The problem with asking for more real-world aircraft in the game is that most of the games' interceptors are of a sci-fi variety, so it's a moot point asking for aircraft which will get replaced in short order with fantasy aircraft made using alien materials. Price is an object in the game. While the price of aircraft is considerably reduced compared to the real-world of the same time, the cost for tier 1 aircraft in a starting base is more than enough to cause a heart attack each time an interceptor is lost.

The Xenonauts: Crimson Dagger novella explains what happens in the Iceland Incident.

I don't remember the Xenopedia saying the Avalanche missile is nuclear-tipped. Where does it say that?

In fact, have you played this game? Even the Kickstarter demo released last year?

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I missed the Kickstarter campaign (and I'm kicking myself for it) and I didn't play the game, sorry, I just got hooked on descriptions recently. As for Avalanche being nuclear-tipped, that comes from the original X-COM games -- the flavor text for Avalanche (normally invisible, but could be viewed in geoscape.exe and if the game crapped out on the screen since it was essentially due to palette -- black text on black background -- a quick and dirty way to obstruct the text on the page).

I'll check out the novella to understand the world a bit more, I guess it will stop bugging me :)

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There's a new demo coming in a couple of weeks with the Steam launch that you'll probably enjoy a lot more than the Kickstarter one.

Regarding the setting, firstly, it's far too late to change it. Even if it wasn't, though - gameplay is far more important than the setting, so what we've come up with offers the best gameplay possibilities and the setting is wrapped around that rather than vice versa. As an example, it's neither fun nor interesting to have to manage 16 missiles per aircraft.

Ultimately, the choice of aircraft may not be optimal but they're recognisable and look nice so that'll do me. There's also a very good reason why we don't use the YF-12 (you're not the first to suggest it), but unfortunately you'll have to complete the game to understand what that is.

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Wow, a lowly forum denizen like me and I already got a reply from Chris, I'm really proud of myself :)

Obviously, not having preordered (yet), it'll take a while to read the novella. Chris, you really piqued my interest. Please, pretty please, could you PM me the reason for this? The following is only a wild speculation, but I'm marking it as a spoiler in case I'm right on the money here :)

I have a guess that maybe some technologies are based on earlier recovered UFO techs (read Area 51), and YF-12 would attract too much attention from the aliens to be viable? Oxcart project used pretty conventional, if sophisticated, engines which wouldn't require alien help to develop, though.

Or maybe NATO and USSR are still playing politics alongside the invasion and they don't want advanced technology to fall into the enemy's hands?

Or maybe USA or USSR are responsible for the invasion?

More on the topic: Fail-deadly. Is there any reason why alien commanders don't carry suicide pills or any devices that would kill them if they are stunned and not revived in an hour? I would make a nice move (maybe just on higher difficulties) to prevent players from getting commanders too quickly (additional research required how to prevent it).

I think it's a question of balance, and maybe it's just my impression, but if interceptors are replaced with alien tech relatively quickly, it makes them irrelevant for the rest of the game, I guess. I would have made it differently -- hybrid tech -- replace delicate construction of the aircraft with light and durable alien alloy, replace engines and very heavy fuel with alien power sources and a few grams of fuel, these kinds of changes -- which would then be replaced with ultimate constructions based heavily on UFOs.

Will there be an option to capture an intact UFO and repurpose it as a Xenonaut craft? It would save on the manufacturing effort after all?

Modding the game... No thanks. I don't like modding games -- either I play straight or I cheat outright -- modding the game with just one weapon that has 1000% accuracy and costs 0.1% TUs to use, has unlimited ammunition and can be set to stun, explode or armor piercing unbalances the game and as I said -- there's cheating for that.

It's great that Xenonauts allows a squadron to attack a UFO and that there are multiple aircraft fighting at once, but a real life squadron can be 30 aircraft and I would really like if it was possible to attack UFOs with dozens of aircraft if ever needed. Obviously, if three of them can down a huge UFO (that would have been hardly possible in original X-COM games), then the point is moot.

About psionic warfare. I wrote the original psionic warfare suggestion page for UFO:AI (here: http://ufoai.org/wiki/Gameplay_Proposals/Psionic_warfare). Basically, I'm for one of two possibilities -- either include all capabilities both for humans and aliens or not include it in the game at all. There is no viable explanation why aliens can mind control humans and this doesn't work the other way around. Will there be a way to protect a soldier against mind control, however? Will Xenonauts allow psionic combat to go both ways, not just by being susceptible to the attacks?

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Oh, how I would love to show you the progression of interceptors. I dearly would. The closest I can is to simply drop some of the names of the interceptors that have already been dropped around the various forums. Are you ready?

Corsair, Saracen, Maurauder

There is a reason why commanders don't carry suicide pills. Because it would be super frustrating to fight through a large UFO, get to wherever the commander of it is holed up to be then told, "Wups! Looks like it just offed itself. Oh well! Try again next time!". It may not be realistic (for a given level of realism in a game which involves a lot of handwavium and unobtainium) but from a gameplay persepctive, it would just be super annoying.

As far as I know, UFOs will not be repurposed. The thrust of the research in this game is not to repurpose existing alien equipment, but to reverse-engineer alien scientific concepts and make human advances based upon these concepts. All the equipment, arms and armour in the game is based upon this idea - that aliens inspire human research, but don't replace it. All interceptors in the game will be human interceptors, not alien.

Regarding squadron sizes, there has been discussion on this, but it didn't get anywhere, really. Have a look if you like, just type "squadron" into the search function and you should be able to pull a few things up.

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You know what would make for a fun game? Every ufo self-destructs and every commander kill himself and there's nothing you can ever do and instead of playing the game you get a "you lose" screen as soon as it starts with a bit of text explaining how there's nothing you can realistically do against an interstellar invader and how you were a fool to even try. Best 35$ I've ever spent. :P

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Basically, Iceland Incident is a single isolated occurrence that has absolutely no bearing on the rest of the game.

The Iceland Incident sets up the concept of why there’s a Xenonauts in the first place. Its isolated status leads into the reduced, but still just capable, state of affairs for that organisation when you see them again in 1979.

Reading it, I assumed that the explosion was caused by weaponizing the reactor and setting it to auto destruct the ship and the surroundings.

This is part of the novella, including point about repeating it, (sort of) Thoughts around having reactor countdowns as parts of missions have been brought up in the forums. Having them known before the Chinook lands doesn’t work as it can take ages for the dropship to get there, which means they are investigating a crater every time. Having the countdown start once the mission is underway seems better, but again carries a considerable risk to the Xenonauts (and therefore players success). Regardless, there only seems to be the one secondary objective that may be in the game (holding on in the UFO for a set number of turns).

I presume they have limitless resources, and even if they don't, aliens should understand the notion of denying the enemy access to their material.

Possibles –

The aliens could well be trying to repair their craft when the Xenonuats arrive.

The Iceland craft was a certain size, that you don’t see early in the game (not that the later ones blow up either, but it’s a start). Capability to have that kind of damage may not be there for smaller craft.

No orders for such eventualities (makes more sense when seeing Xenopaedia)

If Xenonauts never discover the secrets of how alien reactors work, they can never hope to achieve air superiority or progress beyond Earth orbit, hence they never become a threat.

By the time the aliens realise that the squirrel descendants are a credible threat (remember their own craft struggle in the atmosphere) the research is already under way. Strangling the resources to that research is an option though. Honestly, I think there’s a bit of hand waving involved in just how smart the aliens’ meta-tactics are.

Even if they are arrogant about their capabilities, they should still have the reactors wired to be fail-deadly and if the alien detachment loses combat.

Have you been ordered to go into a craft that you know has a fail safe that could blow you up at someone else’s whim? Join the galactic minions union now!

In time, you would be able to determine the causes of the explosion and learn how to recognize that it's going to go off (to at least allow you a few minutes to a few hours to evacuate your troops), then how to suppress or even prevent it, but until then, you would be at the mercy of aliens never allowing you victory.

In practice though, you could potentially lose squad after squad of troops early in the game, and considerable funding. In return, you get a research tree that could be :-

Charred Xenonuats (Buddhist) > Flyover Scans> Alien transmissions> EMP Disruption in order for you to identify what happened to your troops, figure out what is causing it, how that works in practice in the craft and how to put a stop to it.

It’s a thought, but the risks would really seem to vastly outweigh the benefits, at any stage of the game. Put another way, if not being able to get to a single terror site in the first month of the game had people wanting a change, asset deniability is going to really turn people off.

Same goes for intact ships landing and being assaulted. They should hear an incoming Skyranger, load up in the UFO, take off and shoot down the transport ship.

Add in using craft weapons while on the ground, indirect fire weapons never being developed by either side and Interceptors strafing the ground as the aliens come out of the ship. Oh, and a nice Chinook gun for similar purposes.

If they had enough time to set up positions before you landed, they would have had more than enough time to get back in the UFO.

Logically, considering the time it takes for a Chinook to get to most sites, they should be sitting waiting. Perhaps dependant on mission type. But there would be some that would be there simply to kill Xenonuats. First turn. Rockets into the Chinook from all sides. How long would you keep playing? What would need to change to get Xenonauts into the map without being blown up? A gigantic map where you have to land miles away before advancing on the alien position?

For Xenonauts, I would suggest one of two things: add alien scorched earth tactics or rewrite the Iceland Incident. Maybe explain why they can't repeat it.

There’s a bit more in the Novella around this. There are some other things leading for that, but would be a bit spoilery to mention here.

it bugged me how easy it was in UFO:EU to blow up the power source (it exploded after being hit with a single pistol shot), and yet how impossible it was to take down a UFO

UFO hulls are amazingly resistant and energy and shock absorbent made of Wavyterium.

Components of the power source are complex and fragile constructs made of Denyatron.:)

Which brings me to the topic of Avalanche -- a supposedly nuclear missile. This also bugged me for different reasons -- you shoot down a UFO using six nuclear warheads and then land and soldiers run around in coveralls?

I think someone has mentioned that they aren’t nukes, although I see where the connection is in the Iceland incident.

The soldiers used to run around in Jackal armour. Not that this helps protect against radiation either. There were some posts about radiation suited soldiers etc. You can see the retrieval team in the successful mission screens take it a bit more seriously.

>snip thoughts on craft<

replied to by others.

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More on the topic: Fail-deadly. Is there any reason why alien commanders don't carry suicide pills or any devices that would kill them if they are stunned and not revived in an hour? I would make a nice move (maybe just on higher difficulties) to prevent players from getting commanders too quickly (additional research required how to prevent it).

Because our generals carry suicide pills on them all the time?

About psionic warfare. I wrote the original psionic warfare suggestion page for UFO:AI (here: http://ufoai.org/wiki/Gameplay_Proposals/Psionic_warfare). Basically, I'm for one of two possibilities -- either include all capabilities both for humans and aliens or not include it in the game at all. There is no viable explanation why aliens can mind control humans and this doesn't work the other way around.

Wut?

No viable explanation? How about "our brains simply don't have the transmitter part, only the reciever one"?

Bloody hell, there's a bajjilion possible explanations - and that's coming from someone who doesn't even like psionics.

Edited by TrashMan
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yup, psychotronics/MkUltra type things were very much part of not only UFOlogy for the original game, but also cold war programmes (whether delusional/ dis informational/cover for other funding or what have you) which keeps it very much in the setting for Xenonauts too. It's got a place in the scheme of things just as much as alien invasions, UFOs and exotic reverse engineering.

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You know what would make for a fun game? Every ufo self-destructs and every commander kill himself and there's nothing you can ever do and instead of playing the game you get a "you lose" screen as soon as it starts with a bit of text explaining how there's nothing you can realistically do against an interstellar invader and how you were a fool to even try. Best 35$ I've ever spent. :P

Come to think of it, developers wouldn't need to work on the tactical part of the game too much then. You know, they wouldn't need to work on pretty much anything. PROFIT.

Of course you're right. The only thing I was wondering about was that the backstory doesn't match the game. Not that it ever stopped anyone from developing an awesome game (the original UFO EU intro never happens in the game, but it never was put against the game as more than just a remark). However, having a UFO or two blow up in your face during a game would really make the player feel less secure about his or her own situation. Suicidal commanders could also happen once -- maybe not a suicide pill, but a fail-deadly armor which needs to be disabled within one hour or the alien gets it -- research a topic "Why did the stunned commander die" and know it in the next mission :-)

This is more about pacing the game right than anything else -- what I really disliked about X-COM is that you had the chance of developing a lot of stuff very quickly and then everything dried up and you basically spent time to stun a commander and to develop your psionicists enough to be effective against all aliens for the assault on Cydonia. However, TFTD blew it all up by introducing artificial difficulty into research and a series of non sequuntur when it came to research (why did you need alien 'x' to research 'y', or why did the alien 'z' need to be alive for research 'n', or why did alien 'a' need to be dead for research 'b', and why couldn't you just execute the live aliens to perform autopsy), worst of all, making parts of it game-breaking.

I suppose we have grown way beyond those times and limitations, so artificial difficulty is not needed, but introducing real difficulty (at least on high difficulty levels, as expected) would help the feeling of fighting a losing war.

But I get your point.

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Because our generals carry suicide pills on them all the time?

I don't think any military enforces suicide pills. I realize I am much ingrained in the X-COM way of thinking, where all aliens were expendable, including commanders. Therefore, having them carry suicide pills and never hesitating to use them makes a lot of sense. I realize now that it might not make sense in Xenonauts if aliens (at least commanders) are individuals. But still, this is war, not a casual stroll where the alien general is unexpectedly kidnapped.

Wut?

No viable explanation? How about "our brains simply don't have the transmitter part, only the reciever one"?

I guess it's down to choice of words and perhaps 'viable' was not the most viable choice. You're right about human brains just being receivers (hence original X-COM had psi-amps which were transmitters), but I'm really curious about the story behind how alien psionicists ever developed their brains into transmitters themselves, what was the evolutionary path that led to it and what ecological niche did it serve.

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what was the evolutionary path that led to it and what ecological niche did it serve.

That implies their psi powers are natural. It's more likely it was artificial. Them having faster than light space travel already shows their scientific level is way beyond on ours.

As for the explanation: "Bitch we need decades to figure this shit out! You're lucky we gave you combat lasers in less than a week!...What? A theory? Pretty sure we're missing a few scientific fields for that! That good enough? Great, now go pester the production chief, i have shit to do!"

~Dicky Thedick, science division chief.

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"WE. GAVE. YOU. COMBAT. LASERS. IN. A. WEEK.

It took us a WEEK to invent a gun that'd make any military commander from the US, to the USSR, to Israel, to f****g Algeria cream himself! Now you want us to replicate what is no doubt generations of fiddly genetic modification in time for your next combat op. Uh-uh, not gonna happen."

~Dicky, when you continue pestering him.

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