Gauddlike Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Gauddlike: If you set the stopping chance to X% for player/alien units can accuracy ever go over X%? If it can why not just set the stopping chance to 0%? Stopping chance has little bearing on accuracy. The only things it would affect is how likely you are to hit an object that is between you and your target and how likely your target is to be protected by its cover. For example shooting over a low wall to hit a standing target several tiles away from it. Lowering it would not cap your accuracy against your target in any way. If you target an enemy and roll a hit then you have hit. Stopping chance of the target is not used because you have already hit it. Stopping chance is only used for cover saves and against tiles that you are not targeting. So two linked but different mechanics. Setting the stopping chance to 0 would prevent a shot that missed its primary target from ever hitting another enemy along its path. You could spray 50 machine gun rounds at two enemies and stand a 0% chance of hurting the one you were not aiming at, even if it was standing right between you and your original target. It would also prevent the unit from ever being hurt while in cover as the stopping chance is used to determine which is hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 All I did was change the fire cost and it seemed to work well for me. Dunno what changes you have been making.Technicly, you could reduce damage a bit. You have machinguns that use same caliber bullets as rifles after all..... Well, I was trying to make it a "realistic" representation of an M60 LMG. If you want to be "realistic" representation of the SAW 5.56 mm then you still need to give it more range and accuracy (the damage and penetration should be equal to the M16.) The SAW has about 50% more effective range than the M16 because of the bipod and heavier construction. That alone makes it much more deadly. You'll get a couple hits almost everytime you fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Thanks Gauddlike. My assumptions were all wrong then Good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Or mine are I based them as closely as possible on the information on the wiki site from Chris so hopefully I am not too far wrong. I doubt it is 100% accurate though as I have no more access to the actual code and formulae used than anyone else outside of the dev team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusherven Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 FWIW, a couple notes on realism: when I was trained to fire an M249, the burst duration was determined by a ditty: "Die, m****f****, die, release." ie you start saying that in your head as you pull the trigger, then release. New recruits have a tendency to let off the trigger too soon. As for accuracy in firing long bursts, it's not necessarily the case that you lose accuracy. The M240G, a heavier weapon, can be a little different, but one of the easiest ways to hit your target is to walk your rounds on target by watching the tracers (your spotter actually does that for you). The tripod the M240 comes with makes it really easy to remain accurate in long bursts, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 FWIW, a couple notes on realism: when I was trained to fire an M249, the burst duration was determined by a ditty: "Die, m****f****, die, release." ie you start saying that in your head as you pull the trigger, then release. New recruits have a tendency to let off the trigger too soon. As for accuracy in firing long bursts, it's not necessarily the case that you lose accuracy. The M240G, a heavier weapon, can be a little different, but one of the easiest ways to hit your target is to walk your rounds on target by watching the tracers (your spotter actually does that for you). The tripod the M240 comes with makes it really easy to remain accurate in long bursts, as well. Hmm...I think your statement pretty much lines up with most of what we have now. By that I mean that the current mechanics are OK except for the spread of misses. Although there really isn't anyway to "walk" the rounds into the target and we don't have spotters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 This post is going to be a little more general about the difficulty with setting weapon properties for balance purposes before it focuses on the machine gun problem. The main weapon property that causes difficulty in balancing is the Operational Range because it simultaneously affects two properties regarding accuracy. The first is that it sets where range penalties start to apply. The second, less obvious way is that it changes the rate at which the weapon loses accuracy once range penalties start to apply. For example, if a weapon has an operational range of 30, you have to go another 15 squares before the range penalty = 0.5. If a weapon has an operational range of 10, you only have to go 5 squares for the same effect. Regarding the machine gun, the simplest way to make this weapon balanced is to modify the range rather than the accuracy modifier. This is the similar to the way that machine guns function in Company of Heroes and Dawn of War II. At long range they suppress targets just fine, but don't cause much damage. However, if you get close to the weapon it causes huge amounts of damage to the target. A more appropriate value for the range of the machine gun might be 6 squares so that it's potential damage dramatically drops. This should allow for the number of rounds to be increased so that belts are more quickly expended without making the weapon too powerful. Addendum: My Understanding of How the Accuracy Function Actually Works In The Game (Based on the equation in the wiki, but with changes based on previous forum conversations) Main Equation: Shooter Accuracy * Weapon Accuracy Modifier * Range Modifier = Unmodified Accuracy Range Modifier (the main thing that is inaccurate on the wiki) Range Modifier = Weapon Operation Range / Range To Target IF Range Modifier > 1 Then Range Modifier = 1 On the wiki it says that Range Modifier = Range To Target / Weapon Operation Range. This cannot be the case, because weapons would get less accurate as you get closer to the target. I am, thus, assuming that this part of the equation is typed backwards. We also know that weapons do not get more accurate when within Weapon Operation Range, so when within that range the Range Modifier caps at 1 (no penalty). *I am coining the term Range Modifier to refer to part of the original equation for clarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Hm.m...should operational range affect DAMAGE as much as accuracy? After all, at range the bullet speed starts dropping - thus less penetration, less kinetic energy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GizmoGomez Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 That'd be a lot of complication, and with these small of maps, the drop and such would be negligible for most cases, I'd think. Plus, drop shouldn't affect the penetration. Since gravity is perpendicular to the direction of motion, it won't change the magnitude of the bullet's velocity, only it's direction. The bullet will be going just as fast, and have the same impact. What you're probably thinking of is the fact that the farther it goes, the more air resistance it's had to deal with (and you know they didn't model air resistance when coding this thing, that'd just be insane). So QM, you're suggesting reducing the range of the LMG, but adding more bullets to the auto-fire? The way you described it seems like it could work, yeah, depending on how suppression is calculated. How is that calculated, by the way? I tried reading the 20 page long suppression thread, but I have stuff to do so I didn't finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The very first post in the community forum where Chris explains how his idea of how suppression works is how suppression works. That is to say, in multiple threads (not just simply the "official" thread), with over 60 pages of discussion not one single thing about suppression changed from that first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GizmoGomez Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yeah, makes sense. Once Chris started responding only with TL;DR I figured nothing would be changing. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Question: does anyone actually re-load? I don't see why anyone wound carry more than 1 clip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khall Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 The terror missions in the new build is the only time I've had to reload ammo. They're quite difficult when you only have ballistics, I haven't been able to complete one without taking at least one casualty. Especially the ones with reapers, only thing I can say is check those corners . Also the only level when I've regularly used smoke grenade to provide cover. In later missions with more enemies and smaller magazines ammo will probably become more of a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Question: does anyone actually re-load? I don't see why anyone wound carry more than 1 clip. I've had to reload my shotguns from time to time, but of course, I was blasting away at long range, so I didn't get many hits. I have a feeling that against higher level aliens/machines you'll go through more ammo because they will be able to absorb multiple hits, specially if you use level 1 weapons. Also, the game hasn't been balanced yet, so it's hard to say how much ammo you'll need in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 But by the time you get to those larger craft, perhaps you'll have moved onto other tiers of technology. So, it may be not so useful for that first tier. I think I've reloaded shotgun and a pistol on the rare occasion. On zzz1010's Creeper Map (tweaked to have slightly more foes), everyone reloaded, except the dead Xenonauts, and I was almost down to scavenging ammo from their corpses to stand a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GizmoGomez Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I've reloaded a couple times in three missions, it was the shotgun and the handgun. Both still had a few shells/rounds left, but I didn't want to chance reloading during a firefight so I just dumped the unused ammo in favor of having max for when I breached the UFO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 When my final gunpowder mod comes out you'll definitely be reloading the shotguns and pistols a lot. The "real" shotgun only holds eight rounds and it takes multiple hits to kill aliens that have armored hides. The same applies to the pistol. Using either one at any range will require a ton of ammo as they are meant to be used at close range. I will also have an MP5 (hopefully) and it will go through a lot of ammo if you aren't willing to close on the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Regarding the machine gun, the simplest way to make this weapon balanced is to modify the range rather than the accuracy modifier. I can't seem to find it at the moment but doesn't the range affect suppression as well? I remember reading that a weapon can only suppress out to its effective range, making your modification of the machine gun go from the best suppression weapon to the worst. Ah found it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusherven Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 When my final gunpowder mod comes out you'll definitely be reloading the shotguns and pistols a lot. The "real" shotgun only holds eight rounds and it takes multiple hits to kill aliens that have armored hides. The same applies to the pistol. Using either one at any range will require a ton of ammo as they are meant to be used at close range. I will also have an MP5 (hopefully) and it will go through a lot of ammo if you aren't willing to close on the enemy. Wouldn't you just use slugs against armored enemies? With training, it's not that difficult to swap in a slug even if you have buckshot loaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Maybe tweaking accuracy or TU costs for snapshot and aimed shot is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Wouldn't you just use slugs against armored enemies? With training, it's not that difficult to swap in a slug even if you have buckshot loaded.Yes, normally that's what you would do, however within the game code it is not possible to swap ammo types for the shotgun. So, I figured (and I've advocated for) the shotgun to based on a buckshot load, so that it is very different than a rifle. Otherwise there is really not much reason for a Xenonaut to ever carry a shotgun. In my mod, the shotgun was deadly against non-armored aliens at less than 6 tiles range (60 damage). The damage fell off rapidly after that. It also only held eight rounds and took forever to reload (no removable magazine). The firing TU's were also much higher (slightly higher than a rifle) Pistols were also pretty much ineffective at anything more than 6 tiles. Anyway, I'll put my mod out again it when the game is finally balanced. Edited February 26, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusherven Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Sure. Bringing shotguns with slugs as the default load instead of a 7.62 or even 5.56 rifle would just be masochistic. Too bad we're stuck with just the one ammo type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I can't seem to find it at the moment but doesn't the range affect suppression as well?I remember reading that a weapon can only suppress out to its effective range, making your modification of the machine gun go from the best suppression weapon to the worst. Ah found it! Good find. I did not remember this from the suppression thread. I suppose it be countered by upping the suppression value (depending on how it decays by range), but that would probably be more difficult than it would be worth. Range's importance with every single attribute makes all of this balancing stuff so much more complicated. Thanks for finding that note on how suppression is affected again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacobandit Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 On another note, is it possible to unload weapons of their ammo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erutan Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 @rat I like the short range / super long reload time, but I'm unsure about it being more TUs than a rifle. Given that units have to move more to use a shotgun / might need the reaction time it makes gameplay sense to keep it lower. Practically speaking each shot would take longer, but it seems that initial one might be a bit easier to get off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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