UFOs & Being Horrible: Part 3 (New Solution!)

So I've thought some more about how the UFOs can be presented in-game. We've tried one of the test UFOs kindly produced by zzz1010 in our game, but it suffers from the same problems as our existing models (except some of the layout is more intelligent).

Thankfully, though, Aaron provided a suggestion that may help justify his exorbitant salary. He's proposed that we have the walls of the appropriate section of the UFO disappear entirely when a unit enters them. I've thought about this a bit, and I think it'd work fairly well. I'll justify why below but let me explain how it would work in-game first.

Basically, we'll designate a series of ground tiles in the game to be "UFO interior tiles", with the ability to group them into different sections. We'll then add the functionality where if a human unit steps on any one of these ground tiles (or perhaps as soon as they can see one of them), the corresponding walls vanish entirely. However, we'll use painted ground tiles that will show (on the ground) the space that the walls fill - they'll be black spaces with an outer border of whatever colour the ship hull is and a purple inner border. It should be clear at a glance where the walls are but they won't block visibility at all.

This is why I think this is the best solution I've heard yet:

1) It means that our in-game UFO models don't really have to be hollow, as the player doesn't actually go inside them. They just disappear when the player "enters" them, leaving the floor outline. This makes painting over them so much easier it is untrue. Perhaps they'll still have to be sliced up (as when you see one part of a multi-tile object, the entire thing is revealed) unless we have the entire UFO area reveal when you see part of it, but it's still an order of magnitude easier than it is now. All the problems with the big UFOs go away, so we can have the big UFOs on the map in this system too.

2) The obvious corollary of 1) is that the UFOs can also be a bit Tardis-like in the way they can be bigger on the inside than on the outside. We don't have to spent quite as much time making sure that all walkable parts of the UFO are tall enough to allow a unit to walk around inside them (which really screws up the curves on our models) because any time the units inside are visible, the actual UFO model is not. So they can look more like the concept.

3) It won't be as difficult to see your soldiers inside the smaller UFOs any more, which is a problem none of my earlier solutions addressed.

4) It scales easily to cover our existing UFOs (Scout / Corvette) all the way up to the really big ones. For the big ones, you could just have a few "sections" of walls. Perhaps when you initially breach a large UFO, only the front half of the ship would disappear and the rear half would remain until you enter that.

5) Man, would it be easy to test UFO layouts in beta. We'd create the interior layout based on how well it plays in-game, then fit the UFO model to it after that. Changing the floor tiles is far easier than remodelling and repainting the UFO model (so much work we just wouldn't do it in the existing system).

All in all, it's pretty much perfect for what we need - unless I've missed something. The only complication would be when units are inside a UFO and shooting out, but I think we can deal with that by having the UFO model removed if a certain door is open or certain tiles are visible etc.

Some people might find it a minor annoyance not to be able to see both the UFO exterior and interior at the same time, but I think that's a really minor thing they'd get used to very quickly.

So, does Aaron get a cookie for his new solution? If you're going to poke holes in it then probably best to do it now, before we spend any dev time implementing it.

EDIT: Here's a basic preview of how it might look (though we'll probably do some more work to improve the visuals): www.xenonauts.com/devimages/testUFOwalls.jpg

I'm curious... what happens when you go up a camera level (or four)? Does the game still show you the interior or does it switch to showing the exterior?

If i understand it correctly. Then i like it. If i switch between one soldier outside and one inside the ship. Will it just show interior/exterior depending on whom i choose? Is it possible to se an example of how it wouuld look from the inside of the ship? Anyways, i find this miles better than two parters. Nice idea, now lets try it.

No, if a unit is inside the UFO than that section of the exterior cannot be viewed at all. It'd reappear if all the units left the UFO. Not perfect, but it's hardly the worst thing ever. I think you'd get used to it pretty quickly.

Multi-level UFOs would have a slicethrough on each level, though, showing you where the outer hull would be on that particular level.

Forgive me if this my questions are daft - I'm half-alseep today!

1) "the UFOs can also be a bit Tardis-like" - does this just mean the UFO floor map will extend up to the outline of the visible external model?

2) If not, how will the game track where a unit is relative to the 'outside' UFO image? IE, are you going to get an alien popping through a wall? Or sighting my guys while not being visible themselves.

That said, this sounds good - I particulary like the idea of being able to drive my tanks through the UFO's. And I am always in favour of anything which doesn't split the maps for UFO's

OK, so for 1) at the moment there's plenty of parts of UFOs hulls that can't be walkable areas because the hulls are curved down towards the edges of the UFO and the top of the tile is not 2.2m tall (the height of a tile in the game) near the edges.

This means you get some unnaturally steep curves towards the edges of the UFO. The floor maps still won't extend right to the edge of the hulls, but it means we don't have to worry about getting the curves the right height so much, so the shapes should look more natural.

2) No, because you can't see through UFO walls. If an alien is visible inside the UFO but you have no troops inside it, we'll probably have some method of removing the UFO model in that case too. Shouldn't be an issue, it's just a question of identifying all the times you need to see the inside of the ship and making sure the game reveals the UFO interior in all of those instances.

This genuinely sounds like an optimal solution. If I got it all right I think this is really a great way to resolve the big UFOs issue.

Great idea Chris et al

How would this work with multiple breach points? Would it be possible to create additional breach points dynamically? Would there be maps with additional breach points pre-created?

I'm guessing from the description of the method that the answer to these is no: personally I'm fine with that, but I know it was a hot topic in v1 and v2 of this thread.

Sounds good, indeed! Now I'll just have to remember not to try and shoot through invisible ship walls with a rocket launcher. From point blank range.

Is it possible to see an example of how it would look

examples would be great. can't wait until you got a mockup ready Chris ... well I can. I just hope it is soon because waiting for it makes me giddy.

I think I'd need to seen an example of this before I could fully understand it (it's kinda hard to visualize) but it sounds good. If this is the best shot for us to have our cake and eat it too then go for it.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Jean-Luc

Chris, can you put up a couple quick illustrations so we can see what your talking about? I'm having a hard time picturing this.

I think this seems better than having a two part mission, but wouldn't mind a napkin sketch just to be sure I've understood this correctly.

How does external-to-internal firing work? Will the shots still stop at the (invisible, removed) UFO hulls? Or does this mean that Sgt Sniper will suddenly have the shot into the control room as soon as Pvt Slapcheese blunders into the alien atrium?

(Mind you, being able to effectively call in HWP artillery to do a rolling suppressive barrage of the interior would be AWESOME.)

How does external-to-internal firing work? Will the shots still stop at the (invisible, removed) UFO hulls?

Yes.

Aaron should get his cookie.

As the others before me, a mockup would make sure we understand this correctly.

What about ufo damage with this new layout system ?

That is, the following topics :

- Hull breaches

- Interior destruction

- Randomised and/or dynamic change to the layout

By the sound of it you will still have an external wall to go by.

It isn't like you will walk into the ship and it will suddenly be open plan.

The curved and pretty outer hull will vanish and leave you with the internal walls and a representation of the inside of the hull.

At least your troops heads won't be sticking out of the roof in some sections.

That sounds like it could be the best balance between the nice UFO images and tiles that work.

I don't see why you couldn't have multiple different versions of each ship with slightly different layouts.

Throw in a couple with a bit of damage in different areas and you wouldn't be fighting the same battle over and over.

I would like to see the hull made as separate submaps though rather than the whole thing as one big submap.

That would make it much easier to add in things like breachable sections that change to a damaged version when you blow it up.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Gauddlike

so if alien scum will stand on the edge of ufo interiour and we step inside, alien will appear on the tile where hull was before? If yes, wouldnt be that a bit confusing?

Chris, can you put up a couple quick illustrations so we can see what your talking about? I'm having a hard time picturing this.

This please. A couple of quick and dirty mockups would be nice, because I'm not sure if you mean just the external walls, or the internal walls of the UFO will vanish as well.

Agreed on illustrations. I think i know what your getting at Chris and i like the idea but it still confuses me how it will look so any just rough diagrams would really help me understand the idea better.

Aaron can't have a cookie, I've decided. He covered my monitor in pork pie yesterday so I dread to think what he'd do with a cookie if I gave him one.

I'll have the artist do a quick mockup and post it later.

You should pretend to give him the cookie, but when he reaches out to grab it you crumple it and throw the crums on the ground in front of him. To teach him to be more careful with his food.

No toys being thrown out of my pram at the thought of this. Seems to save on a whole host of problems with a solution that's workable.

sounds good, betther than anything I've thought of, would like to see the mockup but I think I can grasp the general concept, couldn't tell if there were going to be destructable walls or breachable hull tiles but even if neither were it can be explained away by saying UFO construction is just too strong for hand held weapons, you see it all the time in the movies

All the devs get a bonus cookie if Xenonauts reaches an 85 score on Metacritic.