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Thoughts & Lessons from X-COM: Enemy Unknown (by Firaxis)


Chris

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I found it rather easily ... and i don't know how exactly do you search for good mods (unless if you are downloading via Steam Workshop,which is admittedly rather mess) but they usually have own forums,written interviews,YouTube videos .........In other words if you know what you are searching for you can find without problem.

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Hmm let's see ....Did you guys tried Nehrim - At Fate's Edge mod for Oblivion ?That's total conversion mod which is on it's own game for it self (it use Oblivion engine but have nothing to do with Oblivion),made by "amateurs".And it's high quality product which probably surpass Oblivion itself (not only my words nor opinion) and they are making sequel which again use Skyrim engine but .... do you get my point ?You don't have to trust any mod but being so close minded to think of every team or person who is making mod as " amateurs" is absurd and I don't get it.

Let me try to rephrase again : first im not saying "amatuer" in a derrogative term. Ima usinmg amateur and professional as terms describing ones status: an amateur does stuff as hobby, part time , a professional is doing it as his main occupation, as his proffesion.

So there are very gifted, very dedicated amateurs that do exceptional stuff, but on average, imho , a professionals work will be better.

Another example: before i stumbled to the amazing long war mod, i tried another mod which promised to be harder then orignal game. After playing 5 hours or something alike, it turned out to be considerably easier and not for me (with all props to the author for his work).

Im a programmer myself , altough boring bussines apps - java world. And i know how much testing is required for them, how complex it can be. I cant even imagine how much testing for a strategic game like Xenonauts or Civ or GalCiv2 is required after each change, how can you think of all the changes that it will cascade onto. I just cant imagine many modders doing it for real , after introducing so many changes in their mods. And balanced , deep mechanics are for me core of each strategy game.

Yes, but more often than not a mod will not be as good as a professionally-created game. If you have limited gaming time, spending it playing professionally produced games is likely to give you a higher overall standard of experience than playing mods will.

That's the point Firestorm was making. He wasn't saying all mods are worse than professionally-produced games (there are many exceptions), just that they are more likely to be...although I think you already knew that.

Exactly what i meant , glad at least one person understood me :)

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I just cant imagine many modders doing it for real , after introducing so many changes in their mods. And balanced , deep mechanics are for me core of each strategy game.

I've written this before on the X-Com forums (in defense of the work done on Long War, in fact!) but I think modders are actually in a better place to develop game balance compared with professional game developers.

While a game is being built, no one actually knows how to play it. It's not finished: features are being added and tweaked, balance is in the air, AI's still being written, and so on. Not often, I think, does a game go through an extensive period of people just playing it - the full version - just for the sake of polishing the balance. (Think how many games have post-release balance patches!)

In contrast, a (potential) modder sees the full package. They can play it - from the beginning - in full. They can also master it, having much more time to learn the game's systems and discover (and exploit) it's weaknesses compared with a dev team who need to get the product out before the publishers get angry. As such, a modder is in a far better place to understand the mechanics of the game and in a far better place to see its weaknesses and potential areas for improvement and expansion.

That isn't to say that all, or even most, modders actually do have this level of expertise*. There's a good number of rubbish or ill-thought-through mods out there, for sure! But overall I think modders are in a good place improve on what's already been created, because they're free of the burden of having to make the game work at a basic technical level and can devote themselves fully to improving upon a product which is already functional and - more or less - well constructed.

*I should probably add, seeing as how I've done quite a bit of Xenonauts modding now, that I'm not saying *I* have that level of expertise either!

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Im a programmer myself , altough boring bussines apps - java world. And i know how much testing is required for them, how complex it can be. I cant even imagine how much testing for a strategic game like Xenonauts or Civ or GalCiv2 is required after each change, how can you think of all the changes that it will cascade onto.
I've done both and I don't think it's horribly harder, but you do need someone on your team that is good with trig (I don't know if this is a must anymore) and someone that understands how art work is incorporated into the game. I guess it really depends on whether you're going it alone and have to know "everything" or if you have help. My game experience long before they had "engines" and modelers (Maya, Photoshop, etc...) to help with graphics, animation, sound, etc... so I could be wrong. If you look at the credits on most major games nowadays, you'll see that there are FAR more art and sound people involved than programmers. Business apps can become extremely complicated due the large number of rules and procedures and reporting requirements that most organizations have. Edited by StellarRat
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I've written this before on the X-Com forums (in defense of the work done on Long War, in fact!) but I think modders are actually in a better place to develop game balance compared with professional game developers.

While a game is being built, no one actually knows how to play it. It's not finished: features are being added and tweaked, balance is in the air, AI's still being written, and so on. Not often, I think, does a game go through an extensive period of people just playing it - the full version - just for the sake of polishing the balance. (Think how many games have post-release balance patches!)

We spent the most amount of time programming and tweaking the AI, about 1/3 of the total development hours.
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In my experience, most mods aren't nearly as good as the original game. However, with any game that has a healthy modding community, there is always at least one mod project that provides huge improvements over the original game. This is for the simple reason that professionals have to stop working on a project at some point for budget reasons. The amateurs can keep on going until they finally accomplish what the pros would have done if they had the resources to get there.

The best mods also tend to be those that add to the game rather than rewrite it.

That's why I tend to play older games. It takes awhile for the modding community to build the knowledge and skills to do good work.

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In my experience, most mods aren't nearly as good as the original game. However, with any game that has a healthy modding community, there is always at least one mod project that provides huge improvements over the original game. This is for the simple reason that professionals have to stop working on a project at some point for budget reasons. The amateurs can keep on going until they finally accomplish what the pros would have done if they had the resources to get there.

The best mods also tend to be those that add to the game rather than rewrite it.

That's why I tend to play older games. It takes awhile for the modding community to build the knowledge and skills to do good work.

Modding is very limited in most cases because you can't change the actual game code. Basically, you're only working with the parameter files and replacing art work/sound. I know some games have actually been "opened" or broken to the point where actual code has been changed or superseded, but that's pretty rare. I have a few mods I like, but mostly I usually play the game vanilla. The things I really want to mod in most games simply can't be changed without a new compile of the game. That's one of the reasons I've been following and posting so much for Xenonauts. I wanted the game to be a good as possible right out of the box because this is one of my favorite genres. I've disagreed with some of the design decisions, sometimes pretty strongly, but it's still turned out to be nearly exactly what I hoped for. Edited by StellarRat
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Amateurs created DayZ

The original mod was created by Dean Hall/Rocket, one of BI's senior programmers who had intrinsic knolwedge of the engine and the code. Once BI realized there's money to be made it received backing and eventually became Standalone. If DayZ's ruined now that it's "professional" or if the dozen various mod-versions that sprung from the original are better isn't mine to decide :P

That said, ARMA (the game DayZ was built on) is a lot closer to Xenonauts than the other professional titles you listed. The developer encourages modding and the scripting language (albeit awkward at times) let's you do all kind of crazy stuff with the game if you'd so desire. So there's probably an argument to be made here about a developer's attitude towards modding and the longevity of their game.

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I... I... hrmpf. Back to the topic, I've been giving X-COM EW another chance in the recent weeks. This time I thought I might play it through to the end. But something always comes up that ruines the playthrough. Each and every time. Something that never even once came up in UFO Defense or Xenonauts (even though I play every game in Iron Man or quasi Iron Man).

Classic Ironman, all the initial challenges were beaten, took out the alien base. I have about a dozen Colonels, start circling new people in every time to build up a big stock of powerful soldiers.

Then the base mission comes and the game keeps giving me Colonels with no armor or weapons. Needless to say, they all get one-shotted easily and deal next to no damage. The argument that no one has time to equip himself doesn't seem logical - do my soldiers sleep in their power armour? Do they take their plasma rifles into the shower?

Yes, the game is fun for a time. Yes, some of the design steps were taken in an interesting direction. But so much isn't thought through.

Also the lack of attention to detail is astounding. The best example for this was Newfoundland. One of my soldiers was critically wounded on the floor. The team called for the airstrike and left the area in time (leaving the wounded soldier behind). The site was completely obliterated, but the because the mission was completed successfully, the wounded soldier was alive. That was no bug, that's just not thought through, like most of this game.

This time I at least made it through a few almost-game-breaking bugs before quitting.

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That's an issue that is well-known to veteran EW players and heavily discussed on the Firaxis forums. The game logically gives you your most experienced soldiers during the base defense mission. Problem is, if you've stripped those soldiers of equipment to level others up, you're not given an opportunity to re-equip them first.

Some people see this as ridiculous, but others see it in keeping with the complete surprise element of the alien assault. If the base is attacked, locked down and compartmentalized without warning, it follows that your veteran troops would be caught red-handed armed only with what they're carrying at that moment, and thrown into action. I agree with this line of thinking, but it can be a rude surprise if you haven't participated in the forum and realize that it's going to happen.

I personally loved the Newfoundland mission. Perhaps your injured soldier being saved was unrealistic, but "the lack of attention to detail is astounding"? Really? That map was utterly unique, very well laid out, ominous and filled with tension. I thought it was the stand-out mission of the whole game.

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That's an issue that is well-known to veteran EW players and heavily discussed on the Firaxis forums. The game logically gives you your most experienced soldiers during the base defense mission. Problem is, if you've stripped those soldiers of equipment to level others up, you're not given an opportunity to re-equip them first.

Some people see this as ridiculous, but others see it in keeping with the complete surprise element of the alien assault. If the base is attacked, locked down and compartmentalized without warning, it follows that your veteran troops would be caught red-handed armed only with what they're carrying at that moment, and thrown into action. I agree with this line of thinking, but it can be a rude surprise if you haven't participated in the forum and realize that it's going to happen.

I personally loved the Newfoundland mission. Perhaps your injured soldier being saved was unrealistic, but "the lack of attention to detail is astounding"? Really? That map was utterly unique, very well laid out, ominous and filled with tension. I thought it was the stand-out mission of the whole game.

That sounds like the worst mission in the history of gamemakers and tracking back before Adam, Eve and the discoveries of wheel and fire.

Haven't played it :)

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Yeah, the first time I played that mission I had no clue what to expect. When I set off the homing beacon for the airstrike and the chrysallids started coming, I tried a fighting retreat (i.e. shoot, retreat a little, shoot, retreat a little). The counter reached 4 or 5 when I realized I was too far from the drop zone, panicked and started fleeing at full speed. The chyrssalids slaughtered the 2-3 guys furthest behind, and the rest were literally feet from the drop zone when time ran out. Complete squad wipe. And I was playing C/I.

Did manage to (just) beat it with "only" one death (Zhang) the second time through, but only because I knew what was coming. Seriously one of my all-time favorite gaming experiences :cool:

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I personally loved the Newfoundland mission. Perhaps your injured soldier being saved was unrealistic, but "the lack of attention to detail is astounding"? Really? That map was utterly unique, very well laid out, ominous and filled with tension. I thought it was the stand-out mission of the whole game.

Don't get me wrong, the game is a lot of fun for a long time. And the mission of course stood out among the rest - but consequences such as the soldier being saved are just examples for a lot of things - before I completed the mission, I expected this to be the case. I honestly said out loud that he wasn't going to be dead. And I was right. It's just sloppy, that doesn't mean it is a horrible game.

Something else that annoyed me so much - excessive forced camera movement is a pain in the *** if you want to play a game quick and for the challenge. A simple example is sending all your soldiers forward with 1 action, still being ready to react if an alien is triggered. The UI is obviously not intended for this, and the camera keeps jumping around like a racoon on drugs.

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27 chryssalids. Say what you want about the Two Action system nerfing them, but 27 chryssalids. I had to play through that mission six times before I even succeeded, and even then I took a casualty.

Heh, reminds me of this...Some Ironman Impossible carnage back in EU:

2013_05_31_00002.jpg

2013_06_07_00002.jpg

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Heh, reminds me of this...Some Ironman Impossible carnage back in EU:

2013_05_31_00002.jpg

2013_06_07_00002.jpg

DAMN. I've never gotten anywhere near that many aliens on classic. I'd kind of like too by the end game, especially when I have some of the second wave options on. The best team I ever put together was two MEC troopers, A gene modded Psi trooper, two supports and a heavy, all of whom had 90 and above aim, and all of whom had bullet storm. So I was firing 10 times a turn, and almost never missing, on top of mind controlling something. That playthrough was fun.

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Yeah, the first time I played that mission I had no clue what to expect. When I set off the homing beacon for the airstrike and the chrysallids started coming, I tried a fighting retreat (i.e. shoot, retreat a little, shoot, retreat a little). The counter reached 4 or 5 when I realized I was too far from the drop zone, panicked and started fleeing at full speed. The chyrssalids slaughtered the 2-3 guys furthest behind, and the rest were literally feet from the drop zone when time ran out. Complete squad wipe. And I was playing C/I.

Did manage to (just) beat it with "only" one death (Zhang) the second time through, but only because I knew what was coming. Seriously one of my all-time favorite gaming experiences :cool:

Only reason any of my men made it out at all was liberal use of flamethrowers.

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DAMN. I've never gotten anywhere near that many aliens on classic. I'd kind of like too by the end game, especially when I have some of the second wave options on. The best team I ever put together was two MEC troopers, A gene modded Psi trooper, two supports and a heavy, all of whom had 90 and above aim, and all of whom had bullet storm. So I was firing 10 times a turn, and almost never missing, on top of mind controlling something. That playthrough was fun.

The numbers are admittedly misleading - a civilian that turns into a chrysallid counts as a kill on that end statistic, still not all of them turned and I'd guess real numbers of enemies killed were still minimum 30 in first, and 35+ in the one that ended with 48.

I'm currently deciding whether to play XCOM with the Long War mod or try Xenonauts. I've played and beaten I/I on XCOM so much now and everyone says Long War is much harder.

Basically looking for a real challenge, do you think Xeno on hardest (Insane I think it's called?) would do it?

It's all I'm basing my decision on right now really, that and repetitive maps in XCOM that I now have seen too many times.

I've bought Xeno but never really played it at all, my bro is playing it but...er, he plays the opposite spectrum of (non-)difficulty...modding easy to make it easier :) so I cannot base it on his feedback.

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@scorpio: I played Xcom 2012 pretty much to death. I stopped playing around New Year basically because of the maps. I tried out Long War a few weeks ago, and although it's very different I couldn't get myself back into the game due to the maps.

As such, assuming you're anything like, I'd recommend giving Xenonauts a go for a bit and going back to XCom with Long War after a while. It might be out of beta by then, too.

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Agree with this ^. Played EU like 3 times through and EW 4-5. But the non-randomized maps finally made it too predictable (of course, just how many playthroughs can you expect from any game?) I'd think Xenonauts (and you can mod it to make it more insane than Insane) would be a refreshing change of pace if you're an XCom vet

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Thanks for the advice all. I downloaded Xeno yesterday, and have already lightly modded it up with community maps, stinky's maps and skitso's maps (excuse any mispelling). Have yet to load it up though.

Maps are a major concern from EU/EW, and I know this game has pre-defined maps too (other than the sub-map stuff which can technically allow randomisation etc etc but hasn't yet been perfected - I know) but the moddability of actually having more maps makes it a non-issue. This is why I got so many maps right off the bat to play even on a first eventual playthrough.

Any other amazing mods I should include? I just want an awesome game, and have done the original without psionics etc on superhuman (Fixed, true superhuman!) so there are no worries with "ruining" anything with mods that might be a little drastic, whatever is fun - I know the formula well and just want sweet mechanics and light-storyline immersion that is the nature of this game, and chances for great tactical battles and (unlike EU) a strategy layer that takes more than a simple optimisation done on paper beforehand to nullify...

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and have already lightly modded it up with community maps, stinky's maps and skitso's maps (excuse any mispelling)

You probably want to remove Stinky's maps and the community map pack (Skitso's is fine, though) as they're not compatible with the current version of the game. You'll end up with missing images, black patches on maps, and so on.

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