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UFOs & Being Horrible


Chris

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Really too bad you had to resort to that compromise, as I think the two-phase approach will lessen tension.

But, I understand that programming requires changes and choices which may not be popular or desired.

I'll be interested to see what the game feels and plays like with those changes.

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actually i always enjoyed having to find the ufo, especially in scenarios where the map was bigger than the ufo.

I rarely explored the whole map (if not some alien hiding somewhere).

I dont like the idea to easily pinpoint what side the ufo is, and especially dislike if the whole side is the ufo or is otherwise easily identified. I think i would move on the edge of the map around it, either clockwise or counter clockwise, and i am not sure if thats a fun way to play, close to "the edge of the world".

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tl;dr : I don't like the two-part mission idea for every UFO; it adds unnecessary length to an otherwise short mission.

I always thought the battlefield scaled depending on the size of the UFO. Very small UFOs crash land, there's only one or two aliens, the environment is small so you can easily find each other, and the mission is over quickly. Larger ships have much larger battlefields and require tactics to handle without casualties.

I don't like the idea of a two-part mission every time. I feel like that would add unnecessary length to an otherwise fast "very small" mission. As others have mentioned, the seamless transition from outside the ship to inside is fun, and allows the player to really control the field. Whether you've got one squad securing outside and everyone inside the UFO simultaneously or if you like to guard the doors of the UFO until the outside is clear, you'll be happy if it's all one part. I think it would also be confusing to a player at first if they saw the UFO and couldn't enter it.

Edited by ClosetYeti
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I have to agree with the ship breaches being an important part of the suspense in these games. You never know what exactly is behind that door. And sometimes the aliens can even come out of that door and shoot you in the face. It would be a shame if you had to drop that.

If the two-parter missions can be switched from outside to inside at will, this wouldn't be so bad. Otherwise, it's just two levels crammed into one. It might be better to just make the UFO interiors more simple and/or unilevel.

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I don't like the idea of a two-part mission every time. I feel like that would add unnecessary length to an otherwise fast "very small" mission. As others have mentioned, the seamless transition from outside the ship to inside is fun, and allows the player to really control the field. Whether you've got one squad securing outside and everyone inside the UFO simultaneously or if you like to guard the doors of the UFO until the outside is clear, you'll be happy if it's all one part. I think it would also be confusing to a player at first if they saw the UFO and couldn't enter it.

Only the large UFOs will have 2 part missions, I believe. And the mission briefing screen should tell the player that the mission is 2 parts.

After thinking about it a bit, I don't think 2 part missions will be that bad or lose that much tension, if at all. I remember playing UFO: Aftermath, which had 2 part missions for UFOs and it was very claustrophobic being trap in that alien tin can.

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Well, I hope that the 2nd part of these missions does allow the chance of getting fired on as soon as you step within the UFO and leave the deployment zone (a portion of the outside part of the map?). Enemies should spawn anywhere in the ship so don't make the very first room a "safe" one. I am probably not making any sense here.

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That goes with my suggestion I think.

If the room you start in on the second map is the one you have to breach and clear at the end of the first map then you keep some of the tension.

You still might get shot in the face trying to enter the ship, the only difference is there would be a loading screen afterwards with a two part mission :P.

I think the decision makes sense to swap to two part missions.

Take a look at the UFO air combat images for an example.

If you open them up side by side and look at the sheer scale of some of the bigger ufos you can see why.

Those may not be the final sizes obviously but they do give a sense of scale.

UFO scales.jpg

Light scout top left with the scout just below it.

Middle of the top row is the corvette.

The two larger ones are the battleship.

Looks to be around six times the size of the corvette with at least three floors to me.

UFO scales.jpg

577e7c9dea87a_UFOscales.jpg.4627ed83009b

Edited by Gauddlike
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]1483[/ATTACH]

Light scout top left with the scout just below it.

Middle of the top row is the corvette.

The two larger ones are the battleship.

Looks to be around six times the size of the corvette with at least three floors to me.

Yeah, thats why I said they would have to be ridicolously flat ufo if they were one level :P Plus like I said, other people would complain if all UFOs would be one level only.

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didn't Altar's ufo series handle the ufos in the same way? It worked there, with the exception of only ever having a single entry point and really cramped interiors...

If it's a landed ufo would this system support putting a hole somewhere else in the hull giving us another entry point? later in the game when we're toting blasterbomb type weapons it'll be nice to have the option.

I really like the idea of having some overlap with an interior room showing at the breach point as the "access point" when you're clearing the outside, and a area of outside as a "escape zone" whilst you're fighting inside, if you can get that to work it'll help with the continuity. :)

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As has been mentioned above, the larger UFOs are massive. We've even got a cruiser model done up, ready to be painted over, that we're not going to use now and the thing is about 50x50 tiles. In order to fit the dropship in the map, along with some terrain that isn't just the cruiser you're looking at something like a 70x70 or 80x80 map. If you think that's a good thing, I suggest you create an 80x80 map in the level editor and see how long it takes to walk across it. Plus, the cruiser is the smallest of the alien capital ships.

To clarify the idea, this is how it'll work:

- Smaller UFOs like the Light Scout, Fighter (including fighter derivatives like the Heavy Figther and Interceptor) and Bomber would appear on the map in a crashed / landed form but not be enterable because they're simply too small. This is a straightforward 1-part mission where you clear all the aliens off the map and win.

- Medium size UFOs like the Corvette and Scout would appear on the map in a crashed / landed form and not be enterable. However, on clearing the map you'd get a second interior breach mission.

- Large UFOs (landing ship and upwards) would be partially visible beyond the edge of the map. As mentioned above, there's no way to get them on the map. Once the mission is cleared, you get the UFO interior mission too.

The "airlock capture" option may be viable for the Large UFOs, but I don't know. It depends what angle they've landed at and whether we can fit a entry point onto them - and also if we can get the tiles displaying correctly, which isn't a given. Interative terrain is much harder to do than a static, non-interactive piece of terrain.

There wouldn't be switching in-and-out of the UFO. I don't really see the gain in that and it'd be making things far too complex from a design and technical standpoint.

I think in the case of the Scout and the Corvette, which could plausibly be enterable in the mission, it'd be best not to do that. This is for consistency reasons. We need to pick a method and stick to it, and I'm pretty sure that this is how it's going to work now. Admittedly it's not perfect, but it seems the only plausible way to deal with the awkward shape and scale of many of our UFOs.

Nice to hear some of the UFO games did it, I didn't know that!

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My main issue with TFTD's two-part missions were that any partially expended magazines were discarded between stages (the game discarded part used mags at the end of every mission, and the two-part missions were treated as ending one mission and beginning another). This could lead to starting part two with team members effectively unarmed. Having all troopers re-equip between stages (getting spares from the Chinook) might help here (or maybe I should just bring more ammo along).

Secondary mission objective; on the Cydonia mission you could find the access lift and move your troops into it; this then gave the option of ending part one early without killing all the aliens. Could do something similar; have a small area of the UFO that can be breached; anybody inside the UFO when End Mission is selected goes into part two - anybody in the Chinook is safe (for wounded troopers) - anybody in the open may go MIA (since in this scenario there are still live aliens in play). To heighten the tension for this method; any aliens not killed in the outside map may spawn in the entrance area during the alien turn. This allows you to rush through without clearing as long as you accept the risk of getting shot in the back.

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Does that mean you're going to increase the size of medium UFOs?

To heighten the tension for this method; any aliens not killed in the outside map may spawn in the entrance area during the alien turn. This allows you to rush through without clearing as long as you accept the risk of getting shot in the back.

It'd be simpler to just have the aliens count as having escaped at the end of the mission. It's gonna be hard to run past them all as they should be smart enough to protect the entrance.

Edited by Gorzahg
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The more I think about it, the more I like it!

While the argument made on the tension of breaching the UFO is valid, the plethora of options opened by using two-part missions cannot be denied.

Also, I would say the tension of breaching is still prevalent; The moment you enter you do not know what you will encounter, only the entry point giving you a brief time of relief before assaulting the unknown.

The tension could even be added by having options on what happens if you do not clear the outer perimeter before entering the UFO.

Hostiles could follow in after you after X turns, resulting in a two-front assault, prevent an abort mission or sabotage your transporter.

Other mission types could become valid as well, as pointed out earlier: capture the engine room/bridge.

Or for Grab 'N Dash (Capture Officer) missions, UFO's could have automated defenses which would continuously spawn some of the robotic races/units; forcing the player to keep pace and accomplish their objectives as fast as possible.

It's a bold move, departing from the old; but imho it is the right choice.

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Does that mean you're going to increase the size of medium UFOs?

It'd be simpler to just have the aliens count as having escaped at the end of the mission. It's gonna be hard to run past them all as they should be smart enough to protect the entrance.

I was just throwing ideas around to see what stuck, to be honest. Having them count as escaped would work as well; you'd lose score and loot so there'd still be a penalty; also probably 10 times easier to code ;)

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I really dislike the idea of never seeing the total exterior of the ship on a battlemap. As in dislike alot. Downing cool ufos is whats X-com/xenonauts is about. Why not have twopart maps where one map is the clearing the outside part. Then have a second part wich is called say "approach", where you then have the entire Ufo rendered as you planned. You can then have huge ships, they dont need to be smacked up in a crowded map. Anything is better than storming anonymous interiors in a game thats about storming ufos. I was falling in love with the ufodesign and look in this game.

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- Medium size UFOs like the Corvette and Scout would appear on the map in a crashed / landed form and not be enterable. However, on clearing the map you'd get a second interior breach mission.
Does that mean you're going to increase the size of medium UFOs?

Im also wondering that.

I have no problem with two missions, however i am wondering how a breach mission on a scout could even work.

would all my men be put into that one small little room with the alien(s) as well and half be shot together in reaction fire?

I like the system for larger ship battles being like this. in fact it sounds alot of fun to run around an enemy ship this way.

but i feel for the current sized scouts and Corvette if you have a breach mission it just won't work, my reasons are:

1. if it just inside the ship it will be a crazy fire fight and i don't normally play that way.

2. if you make it slightly bigger, will it be bigger enough? i split my men up alot so they can't all die in one sneak attack.

3. what if i only bring 3 men so i won't lose lots of men in a sneak attack or reaction fire, but then what if its not enough and i need to bring in my other men from my other mission, can i do that?

for those reasons i think its best that scouts and Corvette just should also not be enterable, overwise i can't see this system working. however i will still say i like this system, and look forward to one day playing inside larger alien battleships

:)

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I would keep the current ships as they are unless you really want to expand their sizes significantly.

Loading up a new map for a mission to clear two or three rooms would be an annoyance.

However it is also a bit odd that you can't get into the smaller ships to clear them.

Leave them as an evil alien barn that you can get into as you do currently for me.

It feels like a better way to do it then making them off limits or loading a second mission for small room clearance.

They are just a few rooms on the map and the work is already done, leaving them alone wouldn't be a big deal for me.

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Hmm, yeah, it wouldn't really be inconsistent if smallest ufos can't be entered inside at all(because really, why would aliens stay in crashed fighter? I mean, original game has that one alien small scout ufo(http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Small_Scout link for people who forgot about it), but there is no point entering it. Its just chance to capture sectoid commander if you get lucky and manage to get such mission), medium sized can be entered(like in current game) and large ones have two parter missions. I mean, that makes sense.

@Voidfoam: You heard what they said about ship sizes? Large ships are huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge. I would imagine that to be hard to fit into map without performance issues.

Edited by XenoMask
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Yes apparantly that came as a surprise. And yes i heard they were huge. So put them on a separate map alone. There you go. Two part mission and you keep the ufos: as stated before, i think ufos is a big part of a game that revolves around them. I do respect the issues, but i dont feel removing the exterior and breach part as unimportant as many here seem doing.

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Great you see, you can fit an entire battleship on a map just the sieze of a scout. Just skip the surroundings. I am not trying to be a hassle. I for reasons i feel obvious do wanna keep the full representation of Ufos on battlemap. If its a twoparter or not, this i dont care about.

Edited by Voidfoam
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