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Thread: Burst Fire Update

  1. #41
    Moderator Gauddlike's Avatar
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    I would be happier with fire walking back and forward across the target area rather than getting more accurate onto the specific target tile.
    Rather than a burst aimed at one spot I think spraying down the area around the alien is a better use of the burst.
    Think Blain in Predator taking down the forest because he saw something move in it, rather than precise controlled bursts from an AR.
    That gives a far bigger difference between using single shot and burst fire.

    Using the current burst fire round number to limit the maximum number of rounds in a burst does seem to cover all the bases though.
    You can use the same actual mechanic for all weapons but some can have their burst limited, to three rounds for the assault rifle for example.
    Hopefully then you will be able to alter their accuracy, deviation limits, and strength bonuses to give a unique feel to weapons.

    AR bursts can be more tightly controlled than the longer full auto bursts of other weapons to fit them into a single target attack role.

    SMG are much less accurate and controllable in full auto but engage closer up.

    Pistols are trickier but I would give them a double tap shot in auto that is tightly controlled as they will have pretty poor range.

    Machine guns will be powerful up close and dangerous at any range.
    They will also have a property damage downside due to the limited control you have over your shots.
    Devil's Advocate and forum moderator

  2. #42
    Regarding the UI, the way I imagine it would work easiest is:
    1) I choose auto fire mode with my weapon.
    2) when aiming a colored cone will appear that shows the approximate spread of my bullets.
    3) I can then cycle bullet spread (cone angle) by right-clicking. Now it behaves just like "aiming" for single shots.

    Regarding the other meachanics, I am a bit unsure.
    I did like the option to simply consume all ammo or all TU's, like Chris suggested.
    The other option is of course to set some fixed number of bullets fired (modified by the cone angle?) and TU's. But then you'd have to decide all those numbers for each weapon...

    I don't think we'd like to see every bullet fired if we are putting down suppressive fire. So for auto fire I agree that instead only the impacts should be shown. I suppose you could also show each projectile as a "tracer" or something, but not have the camera follow each.

    I imagine using auto fire in two ways:
    1) To suppress enemies by spraying a larger area. Preferably with a machine gun and not an assault rifle. The idea is not primarily to hit but to keep them down.
    2) You enter a room and there are three aliens standing in close formation just a few meters from you, so you try to spray them down with automatic fire.

  3. #43
    Beloved Leader Chris's Avatar
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    Having played with the current burst fire implementation for a bit, it's actually more fun than I remembered. Perhaps I won't change it.

    Or maybe I will. I just don't know any more.
    Last edited by Chris; 08-27-2012 at 17:57. Reason: now with added indecision! or is there?
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  4. #44
    My only suggestion Chris, is to make the AP and numbers of rounds in the burst related to the firing rate of the weapon and amount of ammo per clip. I think a slight increase in both might be in order. For example: the M-60 gunner with 50 rounds can afford 10 round bursts while the M-16 guy maybe 6 (kinda like you have it now.) Also, if we ever get sub-machineguns like the MP-5 they'd probably fire a little longer bursts. For the hi-tech weapons you'll have to play test and balance and see what makes sense. Of course, all this is moddable anyway.

    I'd much rather see you tweaking the suppression model and markers. It's my opinion that the amount of suppression and how much recovery occurs should be very random (see the threads.)
    Last edited by StellarRat; 08-27-2012 at 18:09.
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  5. #45
    Moderator Gauddlike's Avatar
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    Surely the AP cost per round would represent the firing speed of the weapon?
    A weapon with higher AP cost per round means that it fires fewer shots in the same amount of time as a weapon with lower AP costs.
    Devil's Advocate and forum moderator

  6. #46
    Not necessarily. Some weapons are easier to use in an auto mode than others. Recoil, firing rate, size, how it's aimed all are factors, but I think the main limitation is ammo. When you have more you can afford to fire longer bursts. In reality the AP cost of holding down the trigger a little longer should is tiny in most weapons. Both the M-60 and M-16 fire about 700 rounds per minute in full auto mode. That's 11 rounds per second. So, you can see that the whole clip would be gone in 3 seconds for the M-16 and 5 seconds for the M-60. It takes longer to reload the weapon than to fire an entire clip. The main trick is keeping your rounds on target and conserving ammo. The M-60 is easier to use for longer bursts because it has a bi-pod mount to keep it aimed and, of course, you can afford longer bursts because you have more ammo available. The M-60 is also designed to be automatic all the time, so it can withstand more firing before it overheats. Although, in Xenonauts overheating isn't much of a consideration because the battles don't last that long. Historically, it has been a problem in big battles. That's why some machineguns are water cooled.
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  7. #47
    Forum Moderator Max_Caine's Avatar
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    Chris, speaking as a player, drawing from my experience of every build that I have played (since 9.2), if I have the AP to burst fire and have a weapon that can burst fire as well as single-shot, it has always been a better bet to burst fire than single shot, regardless of whether I am burst firing at long range or short range. This I have found to be true of the ballistic weapons, and it is especialy true of the laser weapons. Fun burst fire may be, but I believe that with burst fire as it currently is, the Let's Plays of Xenonauts when it gets released will be full of burst firing goodness, just as it was in the first two Xcom games.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by StellarRat View Post
    That's why some machineguns are water cooled.
    Or they are built with the ability to change barrels.
    You can change the barrel of an MG3 (nearly unchanged from the MG42, "Hitler's Buzzsaw") in way under 10 seconds.

    Back then they had a higher rate of fire, too (hence the nickname), so it wouldn't have been nearly as scary if the soldiers had had to wait for the barrel to cool.

    Oh, and when you have to carry the cursed thing you quickly realise that it's not an assault rifle. Only takes a few kilometers.

  9. #49
    Moderator Gauddlike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StellarRat View Post
    Not necessarily. Some weapons are easier to use in an auto mode than others. Recoil, firing rate, size, how it's aimed all are factors, but I think the main limitation is ammo. When you have more you can afford to fire longer bursts. In reality the AP cost of holding down the trigger a little longer should is tiny in most weapons. Both the M-60 and M-16 fire about 700 rounds per minute in full auto mode. That's 11 rounds per second. So, you can see that the whole clip would be gone in 3 seconds for the M-16 and 5 seconds for the M-60. It takes longer to reload the weapon than to fire an entire clip. The main trick is keeping your rounds on target and conserving ammo. The M-60 is easier to use for longer bursts because it has a bi-pod mount to keep it aimed and, of course, you can afford longer bursts because you have more ammo available. The M-60 is also designed to be automatic all the time, so it can withstand more firing before it overheats. Although, in Xenonauts overheating isn't much of a consideration because the battles don't last that long. Historically, it has been a problem in big battles. That's why some machineguns are water cooled.
    Most of which has nothing to do with the representation of AP.
    Most of that is covered under recoil or accuracy, or in the proposed new version accuracy and deviation.
    As you say the firing rate is about rounds per minute, or as I put it the amount of AP per round as it is represented in game.
    Faster weapons are less AP per round.
    Weapons with better control of recoil would have less deviation.
    Weapons with better inherent accuracy would have more accurate shots or longer effective range.

    I don't use burst fire much at all in its current form.
    I find that the inaccuracy of the shots leaves me unwilling to bother with it unless purely using it for suppression.
    I don't do that very often because I prefer the chance of killing something.
    The proposed model would change that I think because it would have a completely different purpose.
    Single shots would be your choice for attacking single enemies while bursts would be good for saturating areas.
    Devil's Advocate and forum moderator

  10. #50
    Chris is now talking about leaving burst fire alone. I don't think you get what I'm saying exactly in regards to AP. How many rounds you can put down range ACCURATELY in a given number of APs is not just about firing rate. Sure you can just hold a trigger down and spray everywhere if all you want to do is empty the magazine, but actually pretending to aim is another story and as I said conserving ammo is important. Also, based on the amount of time other actions take in the game, autofire is grossly too expensive in terms of points. Reloading should take longer than emptying your weapon, but instead it takes a lot less time than shooting. Now, if you count aiming, ID'ing and tracking your targets than it starts to make some sense.
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