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Thread: Feedback on "Goldhawk Interactive & Piracy"

  1. #1

    Feedback on "Goldhawk Interactive & Piracy"

    Hi Chris,

    Could not find any feedback on it, but i feel you deserve it.
    I totally agree with you on all points.

    In addition I would like to point out that most people would understand that buing from a fence is wrong. When it comes to Pirating, the torrentsite becomes a fence.

    And yes, I have also in my youth gotten hold of pirated goods. Most everyone has.
    In my case I stopped doing it for ethical reasons, and later when I started working in gaming media it became a matter of fact.
    And off course, to not be a hypocrite, for me Piracy includes everything.
    Not only games, but movies and music as well.

    Thats my 5 cent.

  2. #2
    Alien Smasher raidsoft's Avatar
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    I think that only one thing seems overlooked, people that can't afford games but pirate it will become part of the gaming community which they might not have been otherwise, thus getting them self more invested in gaming as a whole and generally people tend to grow out of feeling like they want to pirate things (or get a good income so it doesn't actually kill their wallet) and thus you have a new person spending much more money on the industry as a whole compared to if he had never pirated.

    Of course everything regarding this is really just speculation and guesswork since there is no hard data on conversion rates of pirates to buying consumers so we can't know if it does more good then harm but the people that pirate the most are young people without a reliable and steady income but that want to be involved in the gaming community because that's what all their friends do. This then becomes their hobby and something they spend money on more and more as they mature.

    I can definitely say that this is the case for me, as I was growing up I pirated things a lot and this made me very much into a gamer, if I didn't have access to all these awesome games (without piracy I wouldn't be able to afford it) I seriously doubt I would be such a massive fan of games that I am today. Nowadays I Always buy games that I feel is worth their price and when I want to support what the developer is doing and as I said before, I seriously doubt I would be as much into gaming now if I couldn't pirate games when I was younger.

    But again this is guesswork and nothing that can be proven with hard facts, note that I am not trying to say that piracy is morally justifiable, it's obviously wrong but it also doesn't absolutely mean that piracy in all cases hurt the industry either, do you all seriously think that the gaming industry would be as big as it is today and constantly growing if there was absolutely 0 piracy? I doubt it personally.

    Last thing, I am in all shapes and forms against the kind of piracy that involves people selling pirated copy's of someone's work for their own profit, that is just outright despicable.

  3. #3
    Hello!

    First of all i read all of Chris text but i don't agree with the substance, eventhough i can understand that a game developer wants to get money compensation for his work, i think this understandable but i think the problem is more on the economic system than on piracy itself. An artist almost has to sell himself sometimes, but i don't want to get to much into this philosophical discussion of capitalism, and that art is money and advertising and not art anymore.

    Xenonauts is the only game i ever paid money for. Mostly i played games when i was young and always pirated. I paid for xenonauts because i see goldhawk as an independent small company. I really don't give a fuck about this big game industries i hope everyone pirates them.

    I also use linux so most games are difficult to work 100 per cent, so commercial gaming is not much for me, altough sometimes i try some games for a bit.

    But truth be told i only got to know xcom because i got it pirated when i was teenager. I would never get to know it probably if piracy did not exist, because my parents would never pay for games. And so i got to know xcom and now the only reason I found xenonauts existed was because i was looking for some games like xcom, and im pretty happy about the development of it, eventhough i think the game could be legendary if more work with be put into it, with more mission types, forests, port attacks, etc. I was rather dissapointed that Chris was a bit tired of it and wasn't going to work after the game comes out... but its understandable.
    I think firaxis game will be interesting but i think xenonauts in its more simple way for me its more appealing. Sometimes wanting so much graphical beauty interfers with the fun of playing.

    But going back to the subject, piracy is not stealing, because it is a copy, nobody stays without it because somebody copied, and in financial terms for the game developers i really don't know how damaging it really is. I think it would be difficult to know... but in the case of xenonauts i think you should be happy that it existed because most xcom fans probably never bought the game xcom, and if they did, they probably first pirated and then so it was a great game a bought it! I think piracy as a role in making games accessible to everyone.

    Other thing i think also xenonauts is very cheap, which was good, but for me to pay for this large industry games, im not rich, and after i don't even know if will even really like it even if i played a demo. I have priorities in my life, buy organic food, I have a baby, i don't win a lot of money im really not a spender why should i pay for this big game industries? I don't even know how much this actually benefits the actual developers... or it all goes to marketing or stock holders of the company, people getting loaded of money and im here struggling to have good food on the table.

    And then it terms of moral judgement, I really don't look at life by with is legal what is not... I try to have my own ethics in this case, xenonauts i paid, because i thought it was fair, in other cases i analyse and see...

  4. #4
    Moderator Gauddlike's Avatar
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    If something isn't worth the price someone is asking for it then I don't buy it.
    I wouldn't steal a car because I didn't think it was worth the buying price and the only real difference is scale.
    If I could drive away in another persons car any time I wanted then that would get me more interested in driving in the future and I might buy one later!
    Sounds stupid if you try that excuse for anything other than piracy yet people still use it.

    Just because another player hasn't lost out on using a game because you chose to pirate it instead of buy it doesn't mean it is not wrong.
    The developers, artists, publishers, coders etc who worked on that game are not being paid by the person who is playing it.
    If you don't want to pay then don't play.
    Just because it is easy to take their hard work for free doesn't mean it is right to do it.

    I don't think a lot of music gigs are worth the ticket price but that doesn't mean I would expect to be able to wander in and listen to them for free, even if I wasn't taking another persons place.
    There is a lot of hard work going in to the product and if you want to use that product you should pay the price for it, if not then do without it.
    It isn't like you need that to survive, it is pure greed that you want it without paying for it.

    It is impossible to know how financially damaging piracy is to the big companies as you say.
    That is often used as a justification by people who take their products without paying for them.

    Basically it isn't the financial system or the big companies that are responsible for piracy, it is the morals of the person downloading the copy.
    Devil's Advocate and forum moderator

  5. #5
    Captain raziel1981's Avatar
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    I for one think that Chris is right on this one. However, when I think of the history of pirating in my life it always went along with the purchase of retail games. This seems to me in retrospective to always have been mainly dependent on monetary capabilities at any given time throughout my life.

    However, I think that the main issue with pirating is that its hard to consider it a crime when you actually do it, especially in this day and age of torrents, usenet, sharing sites, etc. I mean, what indication you have when you download a pirated game that you're doing something wrong? Its not like anyone's out there watching you and giving you a distasteful look as if you were shoplifting or anything like that.

    I started out as a pirating brat when I was with my first 386 AT processor about 18 years ago or so. On the other hand, their were also no actual ways for me to buy a game back then cause none of the local stores offered such merchandise. However, I do remember all of my school buddies knew back then that pirating was wrong and we kept it as kind of a boy's club secret whenever we exchanged copied games with one another. At about...18 or so I picked my first game which was X-COM apocalypse from a local computer game library (leave it to local dealers to make up all kinds of BS explanations to why that's legal when they have no actual right to do it) and it really felt great. But the prices were overkillers and I could barely afford 1-2 games a year at the time. Then came the obligatory service in the army which I couldn't afford anything really but a short while after my release I got a job in a toy store with its own computers and multimedia retail section and soon enough I started buying much more frequently. I still pirated mind you, but mostly those games that I wasn't sure if I'd like in the first place (besides, the store expected us to know each and every game to the core without it actually lending us any game to take home or try at work).
    Anyway - then came the student years and more pirating, etc and finally we hit about 3 years or so ago, I ran into this short thread in piratebay where this guy appeared after some AAA got leaked before official release and he wrote there, that he and many others have been working on that game for 3 years and they practically been busting their asses off for it and instead of looking forward for their main income from the games' sales, they were expecting massive income loss and possible unemployment by their studio as a reaction to the leakage of the game. Then he wrote a bit about himself (he was almost my age) and then told about his wife and his kid...and maybe it was all just a heap of BS but something in me just...woke up. I can't point out the explicit reason for the sudden change of heart I had - maybe I was just sympathizing with the guy with my own family to worry about and the current economy with all its hardships or perhaps I'm just a big ol' softie.

    The bottom line is that I realized that this is the livelihood for many good people who basically get chewed over by piracy as well as the big corporations that have these poor bastards laboring for them only to treat them like wiping mops when things go badly.

    Anyway...soon enough I joined steam and later to GOG (the best electronic game shop EVER). I do keep an eye out for good sales but sometimes I buy full price. Lately I ran into Xenonauts' kickstarter and after 5 minutes of reviewing the demo I knew that I wanted this project to succeed. And yeah, I feel for goldhawk interactive, cause I feel for the little companies. If things would've worked out a bit differently in my life I could've easily imagined myself being in such a company and I won't want anyone to treat my hard work and effort as free slave labor. I guess what i'm trying to say is that I think of games not just as virtual or physical goods, or even in terms of intellectual property - I think of it in terms of people, of young families, of young men and women trying to give something to the world and to the gaming communities (yes yes...consoles included) and hoping to get some appreciation and gratitude (that also comes in $) back from the people they strive to please.

    So yeah, they all deserve some damn respect. *Cheers*
    Last edited by raziel1981; 08-08-2012 at 18:41.

  6. #6
    Alien Smasher raidsoft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauddlike View Post
    If something isn't worth the price someone is asking for it then I don't buy it.
    I wouldn't steal a car because I didn't think it was worth the buying price and the only real difference is scale.
    If I could drive away in another persons car any time I wanted then that would get me more interested in driving in the future and I might buy one later!
    Sounds stupid if you try that excuse for anything other than piracy yet people still use it.
    Again with people drawing straight comparisons between stealing and piracy, they are quite different things since stealing involves someone actually losing a physical product and thus they end up with negative money, for piracy at worst it means that the sale is lost but they are still stuck at 0 then which obviously sucks but it's still Very different.

    But as I said in my post, not saying piracy is morally justifiable (at best it's very much in the gray zone) but it sure as hell isn't stealing either so that comparison is just terrible. I definitely do think that creators of content should be paid for their work if people like what they create and just for the record I own 85+ games on steam and probably equally as many in retail copies or other digital services.

  7. #7
    Commander thothkins's Avatar
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    While there's the argument that the creator isn't losing money because it's a copy of a game, I don't think it's a particularly strong one.

    For example, say X-Com enemy unknown comes out. But only a single copy is bought and the rest pirated from it. That's it for X-Com. It would be fair to say that the game suffered a huge financial loss due to pirating, even though no one actually stole a physical version of the game, they copied one.

    An extreme example perhaps, but it illustrates that the pirates are essentially drawing life from the product, but hopefully there will be enough genuine buyers to keep the whole thing going.

    I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be paid for every copy of something I've created. If it's something done through a studio or as work for hire, then I won't even be the one setting the price for the thing. But my future projects will certainly depend in part on the sales of this one. Therefore, why shouldn't I consider every sale important.

    If the price is prohibitive, then don't buy it. Let the creators know why you've not done so. I don't really think it's as morally grey as some folks would like to pretend it is, in order to justify their actions.
    "...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by raidsoft View Post
    Again with people drawing straight comparisons between stealing and piracy, they are quite different things since stealing involves someone actually losing a physical product and thus they end up with negative money, for piracy at worst it means that the sale is lost but they are still stuck at 0 then which obviously sucks but it's still Very different.
    This is only true if new games grew on trees or something.

    In the real world, games cost time and especially money to develop, just like physical products do. Artists, coders, marketing, site maintenance, paying off reviewers, etc - it all comes out of the developer's pocket. If people pirate the game, the developer is still in the hole.

    It's good that you think that creators should be paid for their work. But piracy is still a method of taking something that doesn't rightfully belong to you and that you are not entitled to. That's the very definition of stealing.

  9. #9
    Sergeant Yevgeniy's Avatar
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    Piracy is nothing to do with it. Who wants to support the development - will make it.

  10. #10
    Moderator Gauddlike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raidsoft View Post
    Again with people drawing straight comparisons between stealing and piracy, they are quite different things since stealing involves someone actually losing a physical product and thus they end up with negative money, for piracy at worst it means that the sale is lost but they are still stuck at 0 then which obviously sucks but it's still Very different.

    But as I said in my post, not saying piracy is morally justifiable (at best it's very much in the gray zone) but it sure as hell isn't stealing either so that comparison is just terrible. I definitely do think that creators of content should be paid for their work if people like what they create and just for the record I own 85+ games on steam and probably equally as many in retail copies or other digital services.
    That someone is not stealing a product because there is not a physical copy is a false justification that only gets used with piracy.
    If I ask a plumber to come to check out my gas heater then refuse to pay him because I didn't get a physical product at the end of the day is that justifiable, despite the time and effort he put into the work?
    How about not paying the taxi driver at the end of my journey because I have not taken anything from him, even though he had to take time out of his life to make the journey?
    A developer puts their time and effort into making a game then someone takes their time and effort without rewarding them for it and, because they don't have to do it face to face, they justify it by saying they are taking nothing.

    I don't feel piracy is a moral grey area at all.
    I think it is easy to do and gets people something for free with little risk.
    That in no way makes it right to do.
    We aren't talking about someone taking food or water they need in order to live.
    That I would justify as life being more important than property.
    We are talking about someone taking a luxury item they want but don't want to pay for.
    That is greed being more important than respect/morals/ethics whatever you want to call it.
    Devil's Advocate and forum moderator

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