Jump to content

Quartertothree Discussion on Xenonauts


Recommended Posts

So you're assuming that games make more sales prior to release than they do after release? Without wanting to be rude, I'd suggest that you're the one with the information problem.

I think, for most games, the vast majority of sales are post-release. That is because there is zero benefit to pre-ordering, in almost all cases. However, in your case, pre-ordering provides instant access to a very much playable version of your game. It also provides some cool swag. So, yes, I do think a lot of your post-release sales are being cannibalized now.

I would advise you contact a consultant or do some heavy thinking as to post-sales estimates. Maybe contact Steam to see how UFO: Extraterrestrials did, for a start. They might have some very useful data for you.

He's trolling you, let it go. If he really thought that is the only sensible economical thing to do he wouldnt bring it to your attention (assuming ofc that he wants the game to be released). He is either really stupid or contradicting himself and his interests in that particular regard.

Nonsense. I've already pre-ordered the game, and I'm going to throw in more money tomorrow. But I think, for this project and future projects, there are lessons to be learned here --- for both users and for Goldhawk. Lesson number one (for Goldhawk) is to not outsource game development to users. Lesson number two (for users) is to not lose sight of healthy skepticism, no matter how much you want a project to succeed. This thread is evidence that everyone on these boards will defend Goldhawk to the death, to the point they will do things that are irrational economically.

Paying more than $20 for a $20 game is economically irrational, especially when the developer has incentive already to make a good game (that incentive being post-release sales) and when they've openly admitted they have cash on hand to finish the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I can understand your misunderstanding, you should check your facts first and not assume that you are right. I 'think' that devs probably have more information on how game sales work than you.

You know of Desura's Alpha fund? There are quite many of games there and I doubt enough many people have heard of it. Desura is extremely obscure, majority of games have never even heard of games there. Anyway, point is, 40,000 buyers is already "flop" by AAA standards, I doubt that Xenonaut player by both Desura and Kickstarter have reached its maximum yet.

Edited by XenoMask
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I Lesson number two (for users) is to not lose sight of healthy skepticism, no matter how much you want a project to succeed. This thread is evidence that everyone on these boards will defend Goldhawk to the death

Healthy skepticism is good and all, but you have gone beyond that for the sake of beeing right at all costs. You are (were) undermining the project on the quartertothree boards by beeing overly pessemistic. As far as I could tell you didn't seem to want to give any money to the project, and were inciting others to pull their funding as well makeing it out to be a bad investment.

If you had instead posted that here in the first place instead of migrating (should that be "immigrated" instead?) here later on I'd be more inclined to belive you when you say you aren't trolling. Right now I simply believe you aren't aware that you are trolling, or know anything about public relations.

If you really are concerned instead of wanting to make Goldhawk look bad, why aren't you takeing this in a private discussion with Chris. Have you tried PMing him at all? o.O

I really can't take you serious when your main concern is that Goldhawk looked bad in your eyes, and you just just fan the flames. Right now word of mouth is Goldhawks most important PR tool. NOT what they say on kickstarter.

Edited by Gorlom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're way beyond healthy skepticism. You write in a very disrespectful and condescending manner to the lead developer, which makes me surprised that I'm the only one being openly hostile to you here. I consider you much more out of line than my simple post calling you out.

I'll try to stay out of this topic to avoid getting into trouble though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Healthy skepticism is good and all, but you have gone beyond that for the sake of beeing right at all costs. You are (were) undermining the project on the quartertothree boards by beeing overly pessemistic. As far as I could tell you didn't seem to want to give any money to the project, and were inciting others to pull their funding as well makeing it out to be a bad investment.

If you had instead posted that here in the first place instead of migrating (should that be "immigrated" instead?) here later on I'd be more inclined to belive you when you say you aren't trolling. Right now I simply believe you aren't aware that you are trolling, or know anything about public relations.

If you really are concerned instead of wanting to make Goldhawk look bad, why aren't you takeing this in a private discussion with Chris. Have you tried PMing him at all? o.O

I really can't take you serious when your main concern is that Goldhawk looked bad in your eyes, and you just just fan the flames. Right now word of mouth is Goldhawks most important PR tool. NOT what they say on kickstarter.

What? I've never posted on quartertothree. Where did you get that idea from?

Believe it or not, there's more than one person out there who thinks Xenonauts' kickstarter is a terrible sign.

You're way beyond healthy skepticism. You write in a very disrespectful and condescending manner to the lead developer, which makes me surprised that I'm the only one being openly hostile to you here. I consider you much more out of line than my simple post calling you out.

I'll try to stay out of this topic to avoid getting into trouble though.

How is it very disrespectful to point out that he made a mistake with the stretch goals? I think even he admits that. How is it disrespectful to point out that it's unwise to pay more than $20 for a $20 game?

Can't you at LEAST agree that the Kickstarter model provides HUGE benefits to Chris --- namely a ton of money regardless of the final game's quality --- and very little benefit to backers? There are so many things that could end up making Xenonauts a poor game, but with this model, Chris gets a ton of sales from hardcore people without even having to bother with balance, Q&A, etc.

Edited by wiglafman1225
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are 2,614 backers, I'd expect number of people who bought through Desura to be around same number if not lesser(Do we have any where info about number of sales?) and not everyone of them pledged 20. Point is, that is actually pretty small number of people. Majority of sales never come before the game is finished, except maybe in cases of games like Minecraft that isn't actually obscure. Xenonauts is pretty obscure if we judge things by size of wikipedia page :P

And yes, Kickstarter is honor system, we all know that. Don't you think developers ever have pride in doing their job well?

Besides, taking money for themselves they got through honor system isn't really good for career. Or you really think nobody would notice if they saved up money for themselves?

Edited by XenoMask
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think wiglafman1225 has been civil and willing to engage in good faith (for the most part) in trying to discuss his concerns. I disagree with many of his presumptions, but his position is based largerly on logic and perspective, which his been willing to articulate (even conceeded some points). In total, far more reasonable and rational than most of the folks in the haters in the quartertothree arena, which just did drive by digs often based in no basis of feasible reality.

Btw, I normally dislike 'labels' such as 'apologist' and 'haters' are both terms used dismiss the thoughts of others without having to address their points. However having my points consistently dismissed by labeling me a apologist whenever i raise a reasonable point, i feel justified in returning the favor and calling them haters, especially since they were more interested in dismissing me, than discussing the ( i felt quite reasonable) points i raised.

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are 2,614 backers, I'd expect number of people who bought through Desura to be around same number if not lesser(Do we have any where info about number of sales?) and not everyone of them pledged 20. Point is, that is actually pretty small number of people. Majority of sales never come before the game is finished, except maybe in cases of games like Minecraft that isn't actually obscure. Xenonauts is pretty obscure if we judge things by size of wikipedia page :P

And yes, Kickstarter is honor system, we all know that. Don't you think developers ever have pride in doing their job well?

I believe Chris is doing this project in good faith, that's why I just pledged $125 yesterday (you will be seeing my name in the game, like it or not).

I do think, though, that not everyone will see it this way. And that hurts the game. So does outsourcing development to users.

I think wiglafman1225 has been civil and willing to engage in good faith (for the most part) in trying to discuss his concerns. I disagree with many of his presumptions, but his position is based largerly on logic and perspective, which his been willing to articulate (even conceeded some points). In total, far more reasonable and rational than most of the folks in the haters in the quartertothree arena, which just did drive by digs often based in no basis of feasible reality.

Btw, I normally dislike 'labels' such as 'apologist' and 'haters' are both terms used dismiss the thoughts of others without having to address their points. However having my points consistently dismissed by labeling me a apologist whenever i raise a reasonable point, i feel justified in returning the favor and calling them haters, especially since they were more interested in dismissing me, than discussing the ( i felt quite reasonable) points i raised.

David

Thanks. I do think most of the quartertothree discussion is legitimate though, I haven't checked their thread lately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize if I sound hostile as I don't intend to sound hostile. I just get 'excited' in debates. It is kind of like a competition after all.

Some people will always expect the worst case scenario, those kind of people can't really be convinced because they want to believe their own theory. Anyway, what do you mean by out sourcing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize if I sound hostile as I don't intend to sound hostile. I just get 'excited' in debates. It is kind of like a competition after all.

Some people will always expect the worst case scenario, those kind of people can't really be convinced because they want to believe their own theory. Anyway, what do you mean by out sourcing?

i usually 'plan' for worst case, willing to accept for worse case. However, i train myself to expect better, you expect better (as a role as a leader in business) you often get it.

In this case, i think of kickstarter and indie development support as akin to voting. The most meaningful thing I can do is support an idea or ideal (or genre) with money. The more you're support it, the more you're moving a niche property to become mainstream. So, the way i see it I'm already winning by having the very slick demo of the X-com experience and voting to have the market see this game isn’t just a outlier, it’s something people are willing to put their hard money down for and should be acknowledged as a market force in its own right.

A higher goal is particpating in the ground swell support for projects like of Wasteland, Shadowrun and that other turn based HOMM like game (whose name i forget), and I've even gone so far as suggesting/bugging Sam over at Dark-wind to set up a kick starter. I love these types of game and creating visibility for them and supporting them are my way of putting out there my vote for what I want to see, ahd hopefully influence the landscape of the market, and maybe just maybe see there is a real mainstream market/appeal for for more complex TBS games in general.

David

Edited by ender101
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize if I sound hostile as I don't intend to sound hostile. I just get 'excited' in debates. It is kind of like a competition after all.

Some people will always expect the worst case scenario, those kind of people can't really be convinced because they want to believe their own theory. Anyway, what do you mean by out sourcing?

No problem.

I am just referring to the idea of letting voters determine what features go into the game. That element of the Kickstarter bothers me, and I think it hurt Chris because people got a LOT of wrong impressions from it. He agrees with this, I think.

In this case, i think of kickstarter and indie development support as akin to voting. The most meaningful thing I can do is support an idea or ideal (or genre) with money. The more you're support it, the more you're moving a niche property to become mainstream. So, the way i see it I'm already winning by having the very slick demo of the X-com experience and voting to have the market see this game isn’t just a outlier, it’s something people are willing to put their hard money down for and should be acknowledged as a market force in its own right.

Of course, all purchases are a form of "voting." But you can vote after a game's release, too! When you have more information about the game's quality. That is understood in game development, and it's why Firaxis is dumping millions into their X-COM game as we speak.

Edited by wiglafman1225
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You show very, very little respect for the title and the developer. You fill your posts with completely unnecessary extra jabs at Chris & Goldhawk, like the part in brackets here: "Therefore, if Chris has good business sense (which admittedly he has not shown recently), he will try to minimize the use of KS funds towards new features and pocket the rest." There are a lot of similar examples available all over this thread.

Even worse is your assumption that the developer would grab the money and run, not properly finishing a game they have developed for multiple years. That kind of utter lack of respect is just something I can't stand.

However I will not pretend not to agree with you on most parts regarding how the kickstarter was handled. I think the reward tiers could use an improvement as well. Those criticisms are not the part I have an issue with, though I see no point rubbing it in as it's damage that's already been done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if pre-orders are cannibalizing post-release sales thus leading to long term financial ruin then Double Fine is in dire straits indeed (2:10). At this rate they're going to need a government bailout. :P

ps: Before someone says, "omg you're comparing 2x Fine to G-hawk", I'm not. Well, not in the way that would imply they're on the same level.

Edited by Jean-Luc
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even worse is your assumption that the developer would grab the money and run, not properly finishing a game they have developed for multiple years. That kind of utter lack of respect is just something I can't stand.

It's not a matter of respect. Contrary to what you seem to think is fact, it's very possible the final game won't be very good. That's just reality.

I do not think they will simply cancel Xenonauts and go in hiding. I've never suggested that. I think they might take the money and fail to balance Xenonauts well, however, and the end result might be a bad game.

tl;dr Don't feed the trolls.

I try not to, but I want to help Chris and Xenonauts and am willing to put up with some of your insults. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...