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Thread: Quartertothree Discussion on Xenonauts

  1. #71
    Colonel XenoMask's Avatar
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    Ah, dang it, I knew I forgot one from the list.

    Anyway Wiglaf seems to be good example of what I meant with "Naive cynic". I mean, does he have any good reason to assume that devs would screw pledgers over their money other than that it is theoretically possible for them to do it?

    Or that project will be just mediocre in the end? Besides that "They promised us [x] in year [before 2012]]" which I can't confirm as I haven't been here that long. Heck, Wiglaf hasn't either so I don't know what his source is. Either way, whether that is true or not it doesn't change the fact that that usually happens with all projects, never heard of project that was completely on time. While it is true that developers could lie to us about how well they are doing with the project, we don't have any concrete reasons to believe that.

    Anyway, what is point of investing in project if you lack faith for the project? Of course people will think you are being whiny, they wouldn't have invested in this if they wouldn't believe in it.
    Last edited by XenoMask; 05-17-2012 at 14:40.

  2. #72
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    mean, does he have any good reason to assume that devs would screw pledgers over their money other than that it is theoretically possible for them to do it?
    It's not "theoretically possible," like it's some sort of statistically implausible and crazy paranoid theory that we all evolved from space aliens or something. It's actually "economically sensible," though it all depends on what you mean by "screw pledges over."

    I believe that some of the KS donations will go to the game's features. I think Chris is genuinely a good guy who will try to apply some of the cash to the game. But he has deliberately avoided making clear how much of the KS donations will go to the features, or how much the features will cost.

    I suspect that is because he realizes the Kickstarter may be the most money he gets for the game, since most of the KS donations come from $20/30 people who are just after the pre-order. Therefore, if Chris has good business sense (which admittedly he has not shown recently), he will try to minimize the use of KS funds towards new features and pocket the rest.

    "It's human nature to finish a project you started." What nonsense. They'll finish it, alright, but you've now removed all incentive they have to pour your money into its development.
    Last edited by wiglafman1225; 05-17-2012 at 14:44.

  3. #73
    Colonel XenoMask's Avatar
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    Nobody nowadays believes in "Doing it for the sake of art" it seems This is another thing what I meant, people seem to lack belief that some people might truly do it for sake of art/project instead of profit. As if they can't see why somebody would do that.

    Not that devs don't want to make any profit from this(after all, having worked three years on project is tiring and you have to pay salary to people. Everyone wants some kind of rewards for their work after all.), don't get me wrong, its just you are too eager to believe that they will on purpose make game worse in order to hold more money for themselves later. I'm pretty sure most artists/developers/directors/whatever of any sort have pride in their own work, while they do want to get rewarded for their own work/realize its impossible for them to do it without getting anything in back, they don't do it just for sake of getting money. Xenonauts is kind of niche game because it aims to be remake of XCOM, so its aimed at XCOM fans mostly. You don't set out to make niche game in order to make money, you do that because you loved original work and wanted to do your own take on it.

    (BTW, sorry devs if I've assumed stuff wrong, I'm trying to think of it from my own perspective why I would want to do XCOM type of game if I could do XCOM type of game ^^; )
    Last edited by XenoMask; 05-17-2012 at 15:20.

  4. #74
    Sergeant BobbyDylan's Avatar
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    I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.

  5. #75
    Colonel XenoMask's Avatar
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    Hmm, yeah, trolls shouldn't be feed, but it would be rude to assume hes troll just because he has unpopular/annoyingly cynical opinion. Then again, most good trolls aren't obvious ones... Oh well, I still like debating ^_^

  6. #76
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    I see a lot of arguements over motivations, subjective defintiions, perspective, ect...all topics that can't be proven/disproven. Chris and his team know of course, but many of the answers will be materalize when the game comes out. Their team has done enough to earn my goodwill (see my posts above). True, I was aware of the 2010 release goal, but like most indie developers (and AAA) they slipped, very common. Almost a certainty with a new indie team, come on! However they kept with the work for 2 years and moved at a stead clip. Recently kickstart craze offered them a opprotunity to inject some more resources to beef up their title. Good for them!

    So, Here's my perspective, for what its worth. I think the backlash has to do more with the X-Com franchise. People went ape with the XCOM FPS announcement, and they put that on the backburner. People also had some heartburn and churn over some of the choices of the Firaxis effort. Now Xenonauts is getting some of the same, because people have a lot of expecations for faithful recreations and clearly have passion for the franchise. So, it is what it is.
    Last edited by ender101; 05-17-2012 at 15:35.

  7. #77
    Commander Jean-Luc's Avatar
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    @Wig

    Goldhawk did screw up by not using a 3D engine and characters. That would've saved both money and time and would've made the implementation of female soldier models an easy certainty rather than something that has to be skipped entirely. Maybe the resources freed up from that would've made it possible to expand the game in some other area. Chris admitted to this several times and it's pretty widely known.

    This is what the KS funding has garnered so far:

    The new UI design will be rolled out across the whole game (ideally with the background art updating as you research new technology)
    Soldier combat medal system
    Battlefield suppression mechanics
    Animated tiles
    DRM free release of the game
    dedicated level designer
    Further money goes to "would-be-nice-to-have" non-essentials and hopefully getting an office for Goldhawk employees so work can be done more efficiently and with less errors and hickups.

    It's all very straightforward and simple. It's way more clearer than WL2's "we'll make a bigger game" for example, but apparently still a better approach due to people like you.

    As far as Kickstarters go this one's pretty safe since the game is close to a beta and subsequent release and has a working demo. Other than that, there's not much difference. Unlike Firaxis or Fargo, Chris and Goldhawk are complete newcomers to the scene so naturally they don't have nearly the same level of fame but the KS has done quite well (and will do even better before the end) despite your dire estimates.

    I guess it comes down to a difference of opinion. You think proxy-nades, human psi and BBs are important and necessary, Chris thinks they're not and that they could even hurt gameplay (especially in the case of BBs). It might very well be possible to, let's say, forgo suppression and add the motion sensor or the proxies instead but the established community here almost certainly wouldn't stand for it nor would Chris want to do such a things anyway.

    In the end KS is about supporting the things you like or believe in, not imposing your own views or pretending you're an investor. If you don't like this game too bad, try the Firaxis one. Maybe they could start a Kickstarter for multiple bases and increased squad sizes. That would make a wonderful stretch goal, wouldn't you say?

    ps: Sorry for insulting your sleep pattern, I didn't know such things could be insulted but maybe that's because my own sleep pattern is subject to so much abuse.
    Last edited by Jean-Luc; 05-17-2012 at 15:50.
    "This is a primitive culture. I am here to facilitate its incorporation"

  8. #78
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    What an ass.

    Yes, it's an excellent idea to pocket the puny 50k or whatever, screw over the community and become one of the most hated indie developers of all time. Sure does make good business sense for the long run. Jesus.
    Last edited by Linque; 05-17-2012 at 17:11.

  9. #79
    Colonel XenoMask's Avatar
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    I'm personally glad they went with sprites because I love sprites.

    But yeah, I'm kind of sad how bad experience stretch goals/Kickstarter have been to devs so far =/ I mean, I like stretch goals. Though I do dislike ones that claim "We can only implement this feature if we can get this amount of money!" ones, I mean Xenonaut ones are "If you get enough extra money to development, we will add this feature as thank you!" while former doesn't really make sense. I mean, if original goal is 25,000 and stretch goal is 50,000 does stretch goal really require that much money to put it in game? I prefer them when developer says it to be reward, not that they need that much extra to put it in.

    ...Ahem, I got sidetracked. Anyway, I meant that I'm sad at how there aren't going to be any more stretch goals in future (Secretly hoping Reaper Hive somehow getting in game), but its not like pledging has been very fast anyway. Anyway, I just hope stuff up to pilot pics/callsigns get added.

  10. #80
    Squaddie
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    With the exception of this guy,

    What an ass.

    Yes, it's an excellent idea to pocket the puny 50k or whatever, screw over the community and become one of the most hated indie developers of all time. Sure does make good business sense for the long run. Jesus.
    Thanks to everyone for being civil --- I appreciate it.

    don't get me wrong, its just you are too eager to believe that they will on purpose make game worse in order to hold more money for themselves later. I'm pretty sure most artists/developers/directors/whatever of any sort have pride in their own work,
    I don't think it's a matter of making the game worse "on purpose." Rather, as the team gets more and more KS donations (which are essentially just purchases of the final game), they have less and less reason to put that money into the project.

    Goldhawk doesn't really have a "reputation" to protect that is of any value, and so what's left is the goodwill of the developer. That has to prevail over his own economic interests in order for Xenonauts to be the best game it can be.

    In the end KS is about supporting the things you like or believe in, not imposing your own views or pretending you're an investor.
    Kickstarter is basically a good faith system. There's no way to make sure developers are actually going to use the pledges for game development. That's why I do not use Kickstarter for projects like this. I would be MUCH MUCH more comfortable with Xenonaut's Kickstarter if it did not come with the pre-order, actually, because then the team would still have a lot to gain through purchases.

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