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Thread: Quartertothree Discussion on Xenonauts

  1. #61
    Chris, with mainstream interest comes all the downsides. Welcome to the limelight. It's a different world for you now.

  2. #62
    Beloved Leader Chris's Avatar
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    Wiglafaman, if we'd set the stretch goal to be "130k, a bigger studio" then we've had been crucified for it. We were getting slated on the RPS comments boards because apparently this should be a fundraiser for Xenonauts, not a fundraiser for Goldhawk. People were getting annoyed we weren't spending the money on "the game". The studio is something abstract that doesn't add any value to the game, as far they're concerned. This is why we didn't put it in as a stretch goal. Also, what if we hadn't hit that stretch goal? Then would we not be able to have a physical studio? It'd just be giving the haters more ammo.

    I also don't see why you need clarity of where the money goes in the stretch goals. It all just gets spent on the game, so whether it's spent on bringing the team together or paying freelancers to do the work doesn't really seem relevant. Admittedly it would stop people complaining about how expensive some of the features are, but they all seem to be in the "every penny raised above 100% funding should be spent only on implementing stretch goals!" brigade so I doubt they'll ever be happy.

    Also, you seem to be implying that we shouldn't ask the community what they want in the game. We set all the options in the questionnaire as choices, because they're things we think would add to the game if implemented. Over a thousand people voted to let us know what they think would improve the game - essentially, adding more tileset variation. So the vast majority of people that played the game would rather have more varied levels than, say, a motion detector. But you're telling me I shouldn't be listening to them? We should come up with a game design entirely divorced from reality to preserve our "coherent direction"? As if somehow putting in more tilesets instead of motion detectors would irrevocably change the feel of the game and undo everything that we have done so far? Even if that was the wrong choice to make, it'd only make up about 1% of the final gameplay experience so it's being blown out of all proportion.

    Anyway, if over a thousand people are telling me there's not enough tile variation in the game, I'm inclined to listen. I think it'd be pretty stupid of me not to - they're probably on to something.

    Finally, as Akavit has said, there also seems to be a complete disconnect between people's expectations of how much the game should cost to make (seemingly mostly because it doesn't have AAA graphics) and how much it does cost. A "reskin" of X-Com must be cheap to make, because X-Com is old. But in fact we have to make X-Com, but improve on it in every way, just to even be considered standing still. We don't get the credit for spending money improving things because expectations have increased, but if we miss out a feature that X-Com had (like proxy grenades, which I see as a very low priority feature) then everyone jumps all over us.

    Also there's this weird attitude that as we've gone on Kickstarter and raised more funds, somehow the people who have already pre-ordered the game have lost out. The only net effect of the Kickstarter is we'll have more money to develop the game, so they'll get a better game at the end of it. But again, they've found something to complain about.

    I know this happens to all game developers and I'll stop moaning now, but hopefully you understand that if we had done what you were suggesting there would have been an equally large number of people on the internet being angry at us for the opposite reasons. So we just did what we thought was best.
    Chris England - Xenonauts Project Lead
    chris@xenonauts.com
    @GoldhawkInt

  3. #63
    Sergeant XenoNUT's Avatar
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    Haters gonna hate.
    Chris & Co. are spending all of the kickstarter money on hookers and blow- what's it to you?
    Don't feel inclined to pledge, then don't. There's probably a well in Africa waiting to be built that would be a better use of your hard-earned cash.

    Chris, enough wading into the forum quagmire, back to work!
    I'm not really one of those loony tinfoil-hat, black helicopter, UFO types... just not very creative.

  4. #64
    Forum Moderator Max_Caine's Avatar
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    Folks, this thread stopped going places on page 2. You're not going to convince wiglafman by reasoned debate or passionate invective that wiglafman's opinions are anything other than the sermon on the mount. (This was painfully obvious by the fourth page of the thread). I think we all need to listen to professor internets, chill out and have a sammich.

  5. #65
    Must be tough to be developer.

    I want to be able to be game developer one day(at moment I don't really see that being ever being possible), but more I heard about game industry, more it seems like hard work just gets rewarded with people shooting you in leg and then putting you through treatment victims get in Saw movies =/

    Well, if words from random person help at all, I'm grateful for hard work developers put in their games. I also love the sprite graphics and think they are much more worth than graphics/aesthetics in AAA games and that you guys have been doing great job so far. You guys deserve much better. Thank you for pulling through the whining and not quitting because of it. Thank you for making game most people would consider niche. Thank you for making this game.

    BTW, I can see why people might be complaining about tile variation ^^; From what I've heard, current ones are xenonaut base, alien base, arctic, farm, industrial, town, suburbia and temperate. Actually, thats quite a lot, so they might be complaining because of demo and assume that real game will have that little variation ._. Anyway, I guess they are expecting.. Well, XCOM was long time ago, it was already impressive for it to have that much randomization. People are assuming that since this is newer game, game needs more than just tilesets for different type of terrain. For Example, UFO: Alien Invasion has ton of different maps for different kind of locations and not just different kind of town maps, there are maps for different locations like workyard, map with access to underground pipe network, map in middle east, mountain cabin map, etc... I mean, I guess people are expecting that town maps for example should look different based on where map is located. Or that there should be different kind of forests. Or map for all type of wilderness. That or they think that all maps done with farm tileset for example will look exactly the same. That or they are just bitching about something they don't know anything about. After all, it doesn't matter if there is only one map for Arctic terrain as long it can be used so that it can look both like tundra and like snowy mountain. That or I'm completely missing the point of why they are complaining -_-;

    Its also possible that they hear "8 tilesets? THATS TOO LITTLE" without realizing how much work that many tilesets mean or how it actually shows up in the game =/

    Honestly. People in Internet nowadays are naive cynics. They believe everything they are told if it strengthens their point of view, but distrust everyone else and assumes everyone is trying to screw them over =/ I wonder whether that is just true nature of people, people turn into that because of masses of people(people in smaller Internet communities tend to act better than in large ones) or Internet just has that effect on people. After all, it is in a way to screw people over in Internet than in real life =/ ...Eh, I should probably stop talking about things I don't know about -_-;
    Last edited by XenoMask; 05-17-2012 at 12:42.

  6. #66
    Chris, I'll respond to your specific points below, but stop playing victim. You started this game in 2010 and went to Kotaku with it, stating the goal of finishing it by the end of 2010. Then 2011 came around and you said you'd finish it then, all the while asking people to pay you. Then 2012 came around and you said "I'm nearly done, just need 50k to get over the top." Now it's now mid-2012, you got your $50k, and then you turn around and offer a bunch of difficult-to-implement and outrageously expensive features, ask voters to pick them based on their personal whims, and promise t-shirts, art books, etc. You do this even though the alpha of your game is riddled with existing bugs and game-breaking imbalances. Forgive me but as someone who pre-ordered the game and is bothered by the lack of progress on the fundamentals of Xenonauts, to me, it looks like you're a bit out of your depth. You're asking people for hard-earned money after being wrong on numerous promises before, and now this Kickstarter has you making dozens more promises. You should probably dial down on the promises if you want less criticism.

    Folks, this thread stopped going places on page 2. You're not going to convince wiglafman by reasoned debate or passionate invective that wiglafman's opinions are anything other than the sermon on the mount. (This was painfully obvious by the fourth page of the thread). I think we all need to listen to professor internets, chill out and have a sammich.
    Again, it makes little sense to attack people like this. just because they disagree with you. No one in this thread has really changed their opinion in response to anything I've said, so it seems hardly fair to go after me for it. I mean, it makes sense since we're on the dev's boards, but it'd be nice to be a little less obvious about the bias.

    Wiglafaman, if we'd set the stretch goal to be "130k, a bigger studio" then we've had been crucified for it.
    I think if you explained how the studio would help in some concrete fashion, there'd be less outrage. But I do agree that it's best to have a stretch goal that more directly helps the game, like a new programmer.

    Anyway, if over a thousand people are telling me there's not enough tile variation in the game, I'm inclined to listen. I think it'd be pretty stupid of me not to - they're probably on to something.
    I highly doubt those people know the costs of implementing the tilesets, and the effect it will have on slowing game development. Voters say what they think is nice, not what's practical. You even mention how little us common people know about game design in your next paragraph! You said: "Finally, as Akavit has said, there also seems to be a complete disconnect between people's expectations of how much the game should cost to make (seemingly mostly because it doesn't have AAA graphics) "

    So WHY EVEN ASK PEOPLE who have a "complete disconnect" between their goals and the realities of development? Why put game features to a binding vote?

    The only net effect of the Kickstarter is we'll have more money to develop the game, so they'll get a better game at the end of it. But again, they've found something to complain about.
    Well, another obvious effect is that a ton of people who would have purchased the game on release have instead purchased it now. This diminishes your incentive to pour any more money and time into the game, since you already have most gamer's money well before release, and you know you might not get much more afterwards.
    Last edited by wiglafman1225; 05-17-2012 at 13:20.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by wiglafman1225 View Post
    Well, another obvious effect is that a ton of people who would have purchased the game on release have instead purchased it now. This diminishes your incentive to pour any more money and time into the game, since you already have most gamer's money well before release, and you know you might not get much more afterwards.
    Jesus, Dude. Calm down. Goldhawk is not EA, I bet that Chris has put a lot more of his own money into this game than most of us "hard earning workers". It'd human nature to finish a project you started, and to finsih it well, the consipiracy of abandoning development of the game is unfounded.


  8. #68
    Sergeant Arturius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Wiglafaman, if we'd set the stretch goal to be "130k, a bigger studio" then we've had been crucified for it. We were getting slated on the RPS comments boards because apparently this should be a fundraiser for Xenonauts, not a fundraiser for Goldhawk. People were getting annoyed we weren't spending the money on "the game". The studio is something abstract that doesn't add any value to the game, as far they're concerned. This is why we didn't put it in as a stretch goal. Also, what if we hadn't hit that stretch goal? Then would we not be able to have a physical studio? It'd just be giving the haters more ammo.
    The haters gonna hate but the fact is that they cannot have Xenonauts without Goldhawk Interactive.

  9. #69
    Commander Jean-Luc's Avatar
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    @XenoMask

    There's desert too.

    @Wiglaf

    Did you even get any sleep since you came to this forum the previous day?

    Quite a few people with way more familiarity with this game and development experience have taken turns at trying to explain things to you. You either cannot or will not understand. Or maybe you just care about being "right" no matter what. Either way, your angry tirade has been noted, argued, counter argued so maybe it's time for it to end. You do whatever it is you want to do and leave us folk alone. This is generally a flame free forum and we like it that way.

    Things are as they are and they're not going to change at this point. We are all customers here, just like you, and we don't feel hurt, "wrongly rubbed" or cheated. At worst we accept the limitations of a small dev studio (that doesn't even have an office and was started with Chris' life savings) and focus on the significant improvements and additions made to the game rather than proxy-nades and flammable grass.

    We're sorry you and your buddies don't share our enthusiasm but the old saying about how you can't please everyone is as true as it ever was, especially in this day and age when everything's out in the open and everyone has an idea on how things "really" should be done.
    "This is a primitive culture. I am here to facilitate its incorporation"

  10. #70
    Jesus, Dude. Calm down. Goldhawk is not EA, I bet that Chris has put a lot more of his own money into this game than most of us "hard earning workers". It'd human nature to finish a project you started, and to finsih it well, the consipiracy of abandoning development of the game is unfounded.
    This is probably the strangest thing I have read so far on these forums. It's "human nature to finish a project you started"? I suppose I don't have to pay my roofing contractors anymore, now that they've begun work...

    It's in Goldhawk's overriding economic interests to get some return on its three years of work on this game. Let's face it: The alpha, even though the game was slated to be released in 2010 and even though new features are still being promised, is nowhere near release quality in mid-2012. Funds are running dry.

    There's a very real chance that the game won't sell well on release, because it's a niche 2D remake of a 20 year old game. There's also the very real risk that many of the buyers have already shelled out for the game.

    If I'm Chris, I'm worried about maximizing profits right now, not burning through all these Kickstarter donations to implement new features. That's not a conspiracy. That is economics.

    Did you even get any sleep since you came to this forum the previous day?
    ...Yes?

    This is generally a flame free forum and we like it that way.
    Bizarre. Seconds after you insult my sleeping patterns, you say this. To be clear: I haven't attacked anyone. In fact, all the personal attacks have come from supporters of Xenonauts, who I suspect are aggressively trying to justify their sizable and unconditional investment in a game that runs the risk of being subpar on release.

    Things are as they are and they're not going to change at this point. We are all customers here, just like you, and we don't feel hurt, "wrongly rubbed" or cheated.
    I suspect that is because your are all big fans of X-COM and really want to see this re-imagining succeed. But it is important to be honest when Goldhawk messes up, so as to avoid further mistakes. This is one such mess-up.
    Last edited by wiglafman1225; 05-17-2012 at 14:35.

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