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Suppression Mechanics


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You could also have a different fire more altogether. Supression after all, is intended to keep the opponent pinned. It's different from an aimed shot or even a regular burst in a way. Youre not so muhc trying to hit an enemy, as your'e trying to keep it from moving, by shooting at the places where he would pop up.

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You could, but that would mean shooting and missing isn't providing suppression. Which I would find odd. If every bullet has a suppression value, you're always shooting to hit the target. If you hit, great! If you don't at least he's a bit more suppressed now, if you weren't way off.

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  • 6 months later...

When i find the new thread ill move this post there, or can someone drop a link in here? : )

now...JFYI

50 cals kill anything within a few feet of the round as it pass's, the shock wave kills you.

So

50 cal can be used for recon by fire...but will kill any civilians/aliens near bullet path (for code speak lets say it does 20% dmg to everything with in 1 square of the round location...meaning if it pass's by you it should tag you 2 or 3 times until its not in a adjacent square any more)

SAWs Squad automatic weapons aka machine guns could be set up to suppress in the following way

You right click to suppress and "shoot" the target area...the suppress "target" will be a oval displayed on the map pointing twards the SAW gunner like so

.............................................ooo

........................................o............o

saw..............................o...Suppression...o

........................................o............o

.............................................ooo

Area being 5-7 tiles wide

7-10 tiles long

In military terms this is the "beating zone" the general area the bullets impact

Anything that fires, throws stands/kneels...or moves in this area is subject to 10% to 30% SAW damage per act Plus aim/throw/moral penalties of 40%

Further if you have no cover you take another 50% saw dmg

This uses up a 50round Saw mag every time you do it so you cant abuse it and costs the standard burst AP for the saw (which is unrealistically high right now...

burst on a saw should cost 5% more AP then burst on a assault riffle (M16) as you simple fire a few more rounds...usually 5-7 instead of 3

You only get snapshot and burst with a saw as well unless taking a knee or prone...only then can you fire aimed

snap shot and aimed should fire 3 rounds on the saw

taking a knee should give +30% aim to weapons

Prone if you put it in should give +50% aim to weapons (to shoot standing really nerfs your aim IRL...sorta like what you see in game as it stand....it is fairly close to right as is)

IRL we have 200 round drums and could maintain this for 4 "turns" instead of one

But you guys don't have saw drums on your machine guns for some reason : / maybe a research upgrade for SAW like weapons?

NOTE....anyone or thing aliens/civilians/your troops who walk into the zone are effected the exact same way

SECOND NOTE if a oval is to hard make it a circle, it will be close enough

Edited by Chollirem
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Actually core game play will go tear to tear, this will still work with plasma weapons and the like as you make a beating zone of death to suppress the enemy

game mechanics for a rifle and plasma weapon and the tactics that go into them will only differ in two ways

plasma can burn through a buildings walls

does different type of damage Energy burn vs kinetic

In the end the game should have about 4 types of DGM

Kinetic

Energy

Explosive

MISC

And 1 or 2 of these damage types will apply to every weapon

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50 cals kill anything within a few feet of the round as it pass's, the shock wave kills you.

So

50 cal can be used for recon by fire...but will kill any civilians/aliens near bullet path (for code speak lets say it does 20% dmg to everything with in 1 square of the round location...meaning if it pass's by you it should tag you 2 or 3 times until its not in a adjacent square any more)

I know nothing about this, I have no experience with it. But if this was added as a game mechanic it would feel wrong and be confusing. (how would you portray this or convey what is happening to the player?) It might be realistic but it wouldn't make sense for the average gamer without experience handeling a .50 cal.

I don't think it is a good idea to have that level of verisimilitude.

PS. is anyone else confused by the way Chollirem phrases all his suggestions about game mechanics as statementa rather than as suggestions? :S

Edited by Gorlom
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50 cals kill anything within a few feet of the round as it pass's, the shock wave kills you.
Totally untrue. I've read accounts of WWII aircrew members surviving direct hits by 20mm cannon shells. By your reasoning they should been vaporized. A .50 cal has to hit you to do any damage.
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mmm I'm sorry if i made it sound like thats how the game runs, Im just putting intel out there, didnt mean to step on toes 0.0

as for the weapons talk

its an issue of round speed and mass, they got hit by a 20MM cannon yes, but did it hit the ground and skip into them? was it a long shot and the round slowed down? did the round go through objects before them?

if it direct hit them...ya they may find arms and legs but the torso would be liquid (If ya got an email I can send war pics of people we shot up to demonstrate the damage a ballistic weapon does)

also heres some direct impact on people with a 50cal sniper rifle

you can see arms and legs flying off and bodies getting air time from the impact...the last guy was shot through a rock cliff face and it still lifted his body off the ground

...it dosn't vaporize them, it rips their body into pieces and makes "meat sauce" out of the direct impact point +/- 6 inches to a foot from the shock wave

The Math...

if memory serves its a issue of kinetic impact on air or target body...think it is "mass time velocity cubed (or velocity times it self 4 times...then multiplied by the mass)"

the M2 (mounted vic) 50 cal has a range of like 6764 meters and a muzzle velocity of 3050 feet per second...its used normally to do recon by fire (as the shock wave kills you) take out air planes and light armor vics

being this realistic would also give the aliens a reason to use their own kinetic weapons that we could learn from : )

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mmm I'm sorry if i made it sound like thats how the game runs, Im just putting intel out there, didnt mean to step on toes 0.0

as for the weapons talk

its an issue of round speed and mass, they got hit by a 20MM cannon yes, but did it hit the ground and skip into them? was it a long shot and the round slowed down? did the round go through objects before them?

if it direct hit them...ya they may find arms and legs but the torso would be liquid (If ya got an email I can send war pics of people we shot up to demonstrate the damage a ballistic weapon does)

also heres some direct impact on people with a 50cal sniper rifle

you can see arms and legs flying off and bodies getting air time from the impact...the last guy was shot through a rock cliff face and it still lifted his body off the ground

...it dosn't vaporize them, it rips their body into pieces and makes "meat sauce" out of the direct impact point +/- 6 inches to a foot from the shock wave

The Math...

if memory serves its a issue of kinetic impact on air or target body...think it is "mass time velocity cubed (or velocity times it self 4 times...then multiplied by the mass)"

the M2 (mounted vic) 50 cal has a range of like 6764 meters and a muzzle velocity of 3050 feet per second...its used normally to do recon by fire (as the shock wave kills you) take out air planes and light armor vics

being this realistic would also give the aliens a reason to use their own kinetic weapons that we could learn from : )

By that logic a super sonic jet flying over a city should vaporize it. I'm sorry but the 50 cal thing sounds like BS.

Edited by Tacobandit
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Well ill be, I went and googled it, to find out whats what, seems our mechs believe some bad intel... im going to have to pass this by and an give em some sh!t : P

the true answer is....

yes the impact shock wave will liquify flesh on its way through and tear you to bits, but unless it makes shrapnel by impacting near you then,

no the shock wave of the round wont kill you (excluding heart attacks)

good call gents

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  • 6 months later...
now...JFYI 50 cals kill anything within a few feet of the round as it pass's, the shock wave kills you.

LOL, someone was really screwing with you when they told you that. The shockwave radiates out at most .25 cm from the bullet as it travels downrange. So if you get hit by the shockwave, you got hit by the round, which is why you probably died. I have seen a few that were hit with .50s and survived (thanks to the plates in their armor). Sure they needed a nice laydown afterwards. ;)

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That's interesting, I didn't think of the shockwave being even that big. And then as the bullet travels it would drop to subsonic speed and there would be no shockwave. Kind of sad how many people have died or been wounded by guns, but that's another dicussion..IMO the best place for them is in games like this - against the ultimate alien menace! (who don't play nice at all)

It's a good thing too that xcom soldiers can jump 25 feet straight up like in the intro videos. Let's hope Xenonauts can do that too and maybe flip while landing into the condor pilot seat without getting their hair messed up.

Edit: I'm interested to see how the suppression will turn out in Xenonauts 1.0+. There was a sort in firaxis's xcom, but as much as I wanted that to work it seemed less useful that other abilities, even though it was still cool to use.

Edited by local
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LOL, someone was really screwing with you when they told you that. The shockwave radiates out at most .25 cm from the bullet as it travels downrange. So if you get hit by the shockwave, you got hit by the round, which is why you probably died. I have seen a few that were hit with .50s and survived (thanks to the plates in their armor). Sure they needed a nice laydown afterwards. ;)
You're right. That whole "shock wave" thing is complete bullsh^&! Getting hit by the .50 is a whole other story.
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Well ill be, I went and googled it, to find out whats what, seems our mechs believe some bad intel... im going to have to pass this by and an give em some sh!t : P

the true answer is....

yes the impact shock wave will liquify flesh on its way through and tear you to bits, but unless it makes shrapnel by impacting near you then,

no the shock wave of the round wont kill you (excluding heart attacks)

good call gents

The people that were hit by 20 mm rounds were aircrews. The round passed though the little bit of the aluminum airframe and hit them in the legs or arms. I have read nothing about ANYONE surviving a 20mm to the torso. Although, in theory I suppose it's possible. I do know of people surviving RPG hits to the torso when the explosive was a dud and having the rocket lodged in their bodies. But, that's just a plain miracle. Edited by StellarRat
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I saw someone take a .50 to the head and survive. Had a real stiff neck for a week, but the plates in his helmet deflected the round (which was assumed to have been fired from about 1km away, so it was pretty slow at time of impact).

As for that being a miracle about the RPGs lodged in torsos of living people. Imagine the nightmares! You want an example of PTSD, that is the poster case right there.

If chain skirts protect vehicles from RPGs, will chain mail protect people? :P

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I saw someone take a .50 to the head and survive. Had a real stiff neck for a week, but the plates in his helmet deflected the round (which was assumed to have been fired from about 1km away, so it was pretty slow at time of impact).

As for that being a miracle about the RPGs lodged in torsos of living people. Imagine the nightmares! You want an example of PTSD, that is the poster case right there.

If chain skirts protect vehicles from RPGs, will chain mail protect people? :P

I can't remember where I read that, but I do believe they had to have a bomb disposal team in the OR with the surgeons to make sure it didn't blow up the OR and the patient.

FOUND IT!

http://metro.co.uk/2011/05/31/soldier-with-live-bomb-inside-him-saved-after-afghanistan-ambush-29329/

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I saw someone take a .50 to the head and survive. Had a real stiff neck for a week, but the plates in his helmet deflected the round (which was assumed to have been fired from about 1km away, so it was pretty slow at time of impact).

An M33 ball round is traveling at roughly 1500 feet per second at 1 kilometer, which is a prime engagement range for the round when the weapon firing it is being used as a precision fire deployment platform (out of a machine gun's a different story; in that case, it's more that someone just got lucky and nailed the target). At this distance, the round - which weighs approximately one and a half ounces - takes about one and a half seconds to get from the muzzle of the weapon to its target, and impacts its unfortunate target with over 3000 foot-pounds of force, a little less than a third of what it is at the muzzle.

Suffice to say, this is not something that a combat helmet will stop. Each of the helmets in issue by modern militaries are doing good to stop most pistol fire straight on; that's not to say that they can't *deflect* rifle fire, such as a bullet from a 5.56x45mm or 5.45x39mm cartridge. They're light, and very, very, very fast, and unless they hit something square on, or hit something soft, they have a tendency to deflect away, or tunnel along the curvature of the helmet. Needless to say, .50BMG is not 5.56x45mm. There's not an armor system in issue that will stop a direct impact from that; for reference, the plates in current use by the US military each weigh about seven and a half pounds, and are rated to stop (at maximum) a round much smaller and that hits much more lightly than a .50 does. The helmets, on the other hand, weigh a little over 3 pounds; they can stop some fragmentation, and some types of handgun ammunition, but helmets are not designed to stop rifle fire. Nor do they, as you mentioned, include any sort of "plates." The ACH, MICH, LWH (for the US), and the Mk7 (British, and only 2 pounds!) are all simply a single "chunk" of kevlar and thermoplastic resin molded into a shape that will fit on your head. About the only thing that a combat helmet will stop is some lucky pistol fire (that's hopefully hitting not too square on) or some frag (that's hopefully smaller than about 16 grains and moving slower than about 600 meters per second).

It's not good to lie to people, dude.

PB050393.jpg

For reference, about the biggest round helmets can actually stop is the second one from the right; the .50BMG is the one all the way to the left.

PB050393.jpg

PB050393.jpg.4d290f01ae4f9a89bc41a91476a

Edited by EchoFourDelta
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