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[XCE 0.31 + XNT 6.0] Out of the Sun: geoscape overhaul for XNT


podbelski

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I was looking through the gameconfig files and noticed that all your funding variables are 1.0 and they have greater caps, I then looked at original files, X:CE and saw that there are different variables there.

Seeing as how you are emphasizing funding nations as main income and having the game play intended to be relatively short, would different funding variables help achieve that and make funding of certain nations a greater priority with a lower funding cap and a varied funding multiplier?

I am not sure if this will totally break balance though and it is just a thought while comparing.

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well, this thing is completely non-transparent, some people seem to be unaware about funding at all, so how can they care about different modifiers for nations?

in other words, I don't see a _clear_ ingame purpose of this thing, i.e. cannot imagine real cases when a player somehow takes this different numbers into account. And those differences do not displayed anywhere. And player rarely have a choice above which country to shoot the ufo.

so I decided to make them all even, then slightly changed starting money modifiers to match the default 2300k, then set the cap w/o too much calculations (two-three playthroughs suggested a relatively satisfactory number)

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Hi,

I would really like to try this, but i am afraid i cannot combine legacy branch on steam (1.09) + XCE 0.31

I think i will wait for 0.32, it has already releas candidate now, but this one looks really interesting, thanks!

BTW. Your link #1 returns http 403

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iam playing 0.32 RC right now and it looks great with XNT6, much better than 0.28 packed with XNT. I dont know why the XNT is packed with old 0.28 when it worked pretty crappy.

I thought i play 0.31, but it was 0.28 with that destroyed base crashes.

It would be awesome to see actual versions description in main menu, because you can have launcher in one version and XCE modded into another version.

- And i really like original main menu BG, so i switched it back ;-)

Thank you for your work, anyway, your updates makes this game best one from all of my collection, i always loved xcom.

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Thank you for your work, anyway, your updates makes this game best one from all of my collection, i always loved xcom

if by updates you mean XCE/XNT I'm not the right person for the gratitude :-)

my contribution is a bunch of XNT bugfixes/adjustments, and the OOS mod that is installed over the XNT and alters the gameplay

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ok that sounds reasonable, my points:

1) soldier stats do grow, some of them slower than vanilla, Accuracy at the same speed, TUs are faster. The next release I'm lowering some starting stats a bit.

Great.

2) regarding rewards: you seem to miss the point as the main reward is monthly funding and you haven't mentioned it at all. Funding bonus is given when you either shoot down the UFO, or win GC against a _landed_ one. Crash sites give _additional_ minor bonus in cash, and a standard exp boost. Also, UFOs that do not land have much weaker crews.

I noticed funding bonus, that is just too small. Another problem, you get funding only once a month. So basically you cannot get more money between two funding periods. Also that funding change does not make enough difference. Soldier losses should have some effect, now veteran vs rookie difference is too small. This mod don't feel like original UFO

3) base defense: I reported a bug about this, the game does not give a funding bonus and that's wrong. On the other hand, there will be not a ton of such GC, so the main bonus is fun from a battle in non-standard environment.

OK, then that is something hard to change.

as to your advice, I'm thinking about giving +1 UFOs per wave, which will result in 10 UFOs/wave in March, totally like +20 UFOs from Sep till April, probably will try it. Note that modders have little options on balancing the UFO spawn formula, some limitations are a consequence of it.

which difficulty level were you playing? How far did you progress?

That is better but still I prefer giving more rewards so that player actions REALLY make difference, just like on original. I just tried what difference makes (Veteran difficulty) playing on "cheat mode" (build two more bases and radar coverage, drop down every ufo that is realistically possible, win every ground battle with no losses, clear one enemy outpost with no losses, reload if ufo spawns suck) and "fast forward mode" (don't do anything so that aliens can do what they want). And difference is?

Funding "fast forward mode"

2 089 000 (after first month)

1 755 000 (after second month)

Funding "cheat mode"

2 122 500 (after first month)

2 180 500 (after second month)

Alien loot makes estimated 200 000$ difference in two months. So funding difference between "very good/excellent" and "abysmal" playing is only about 350 000$ per month.

Edited by WTYD
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Great.

I noticed funding bonus, that is just too small. Another problem, you get funding only once a month. So basically you cannot get more money between two funding periods. Also that funding change does not make enough difference. Soldier losses should have some effect, now veteran vs rookie difference is too small. This mod don't feel like original UFO

OK, then that is something hard to change.

That is better but still I prefer giving more rewards so that player actions REALLY make difference, just like on original. I just tried what difference makes (Veteran difficulty) playing on "cheat mode" (build two more bases and radar coverage, drop down every ufo that is realistically possible, win every ground battle with no losses, clear one enemy outpost with no losses, reload if ufo spawns suck) and "fast forward mode" (don't do anything so that aliens can do what they want). And difference is?

Funding "fast forward mode"

2 089 000 (after first month)

1 755 000 (after second month)

Funding "cheat mode"

2 122 500 (after first month)

2 180 500 (after second month)

Alien loot makes estimated 200 000$ difference in two months. So funding difference between "very good/excellent" and "abysmal" playing is only about 350 000$ per month.

Personally,I hope I don't get flack for this and apologize in advance, if you are really unhappy with an aspect you can make a backup of the mod files and fiddle with the .xml file settings for personal use. I have done that for personal use as sometimes things just don't work out right.

I don't know if is intended for a "massive" UFO signatures to appear in December 1979, which made me fiddle with it.

After all, the files are there and I think that you'll miss out on the expected experience and one kind of "voids the warranty", but I am sure that as long it is for personal use it should be fine.

I again apologize if this crosses any etiquette lines and can be deleted if deemed appropriate.

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thanks! I'll try to explain my thought process and then we'll see what can be done.

I noticed funding bonus, that is just too small. Another problem, you get funding only once a month. So basically you cannot get more money between two funding periods.

we discussed this thing before I started the mod. Basically there are two ways: either mostly get rid of the "funding" as Kabill proposed, I guess partly for the reason you pointed. Or, while this feature takes such a big place in game interface, try to make full use of it.

This mod is obviously attempts to achieve the 2nd option. It's a secret project, not an open market where you freely sell alien artifacts to anyone who pays. Governments give you extra cash for artifacts but the main income is monthly funding based on your effectiveness. You have to plan your expenses, not necessary I say it's a better approach but IMO proven to be fully acceptable. The only thing I miss is a clear big number for the "funding bonus" in a GC results screen and when you take down any UFO.

Soldier losses should have some effect, now veteran vs rookie difference is too small. This mod don't feel like original UFO

I'm still trying to find a good balance point. Look what we have now:

- APs grow faster than in vanilla

- Accuracy the same speed

- Strength is much slower, but starting values are higher. So the "natural" difference is bigger than between a veteran and a rookie. I'm still thinking it's fine (note the modding flexibility here is limited).

- HP grows slower than in vanilla. I'm seriously thinking about changing this back.

- Bravery grows only for medals and ranks earned. Good IMO. Notice that a minimum in-GC starting bravery is always 50. This stat should not be viewed alone but as part of the morale/psionic balance, which I like as is.

- Reactions mostly do not grow, but starting values are higher. For now I like it as is.

That is better but still I prefer giving more rewards so that player actions REALLY make difference, just like on original. I just tried what difference makes (Veteran difficulty) playing on "cheat mode" (build two more bases and radar coverage, drop down every ufo that is realistically possible, win every ground battle with no losses, clear one enemy outpost with no losses, reload if ufo spawns suck) and "fast forward mode" (don't do anything so that aliens can do what they want). And difference is?

What exact number do you think is right and why? You don't want to just have big numbers right? ))

I'll put some more thoughts after your reply, for now just note:

- you are talking about the first two months which should be relatively easy IMO. It's a mistake to extrapolate this for the whole game period.

- monthly funding is a _much_ more valueable thing than cash. If you finish the game in April, every 10k of funding earned in September give you like 60-70k overall game value.

- not sure but seems you misinterpret the results a little bit. In the end, you must count in not only cash/funding but the price of all buildings/weapons/planes/etc you accumulated (and the research progress counts here too!)

Edited by podbelski
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I don't know if is intended for a "massive" UFO signatures to appear in December 1979, which made me fiddle with it.

basically, it's Jan 1980 when Carriers _can_ appear for the first time. They have 15% chance in Terror AM and same in Construction AM. Together these missions have 25% chance to be spawned, there will be ~8 UFOs in Jan waves, so it's like 8*4% = 32% chance to see a Carrier in the first Jan wave. And it will land 100%, so you don't have to take it down. IMO it's fine, why not?

now, why it was spawned in Dec? As it's written in GC loading tips: "UFOs on a Scouting mission, successful Supply missions and alien bases hasten the invasion", that's the answer. Playing Insane difficulty add a bit more to this.

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basically, it's Jan 1980 when Carriers _can_ appear for the first time. They have 15% chance in Terror AM and same in Construction AM. Together these missions have 25% chance to be spawned, there will be ~8 UFOs in Jan waves, so it's like 8*4% = 32% chance to see a Carrier in the first Jan wave. And it will land 100%, so you don't have to take it down. IMO it's fine, why not?

now, why it was spawned in Dec? As it's written in GC loading tips: "UFOs on a Scouting mission, successful Supply missions and alien bases hasten the invasion", that's the answer. Playing Insane difficulty add a bit more to this.

Then scouting missions were screwing me over in places in didn't check or reach as I was shooting more ufos down and alien bases were shutdown the moment I found them in veteran.

Fair enough I need to build more bases, especially interception, I admit my shortcomings.

However RNG seriously hates me (which is no ones fault but my own), as I was getting mid-December 4 "massive" signals presumably carriers, 1/2 cruiser(s) and heavy fighters.

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let's see:

1. scouting missions generate 0.005 gameticks per minute, 60*24*.005 = 7,2 per day, and I guess it's the time a scouting UFO sticks around. 100 ticks is roughly a month of gametime, so a single scouting mission can probably hasten the invasion by 2 days. The chance to spawn a scouting mission is 10%, roughly 3 waves per month, count in a randomizer and you can guess how much time you 'lost' due to unintercepted scouting ufos.

2. alien base produces 0.0004 gameticks per minute, starting immediately after construction. Detection auto-happens after 11 days, so it's about 6 gameticks, similar to scouting AM.

it appears you have to 'miss' quite a lot of the above to hasten the invasion by 2-3 weeks.

upd

building a lot of interception base is hardly an option on Veteran, you have to do it at a cost of dropping other activities like research. In my experience it's fine to build the 2nd base immediately, and the 3rd one closer to November. You can build more but it's perfectly doable to win a game with just 3 bases.

the biggest trick here is to extensively send planes to scout, their radar ranges increased for this sake. Have one or maybe even two Apollos also helps a lot.

Edited by podbelski
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... also note that scouting AM chance not only capped by 10% per wave, there is another built-in cap that basically means no more than 1 scouting AM in September/October waves, no more than 2 of them in Nov/Dec/Jan, then it will be capped by 3 per wave and so on

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I think my biggest issue is starting a new base quicker as I sometimes get a wave of scouts, ground attacks, air superiority over an area while it is building and then still getting it operational to intercept for finances.

So I think the big hits come from the first two months getting set up and from there it is bad luck and bad timing as a I try weaken ufos and then can't intercept because of the intermission between air sorties.

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again, building a 2nd base immediately is fine and probably most optimal way to play this game, no matter vanilla, XNT or OOS.

scout with planes actively, intercept UFOs that do not land: those that "strafe" the ground or smaller ships that fly w/o producing events.

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Personally,I hope I don't get flack for this and apologize in advance, if you are really unhappy with an aspect you can make a backup of the mod files and fiddle with the .xml file settings for personal use. I have done that for personal use as sometimes things just don't work out right.

I don't know if is intended for a "massive" UFO signatures to appear in December 1979, which made me fiddle with it.

After all, the files are there and I think that you'll miss out on the expected experience and one kind of "voids the warranty", but I am sure that as long it is for personal use it should be fine.

I again apologize if this crosses any etiquette lines and can be deleted if deemed appropriate.

I didn't understand that. I always appreciate those who voluntarily make mods to games. I have done many mods on many games myself also. However, without any critics there cannot be any advancement. That is why I disagree with some aspects in this mod.

thanks! I'll try to explain my thought process and then we'll see what can be done.

I noticed funding bonus, that is just too small. Another problem, you get funding only once a month. So basically you cannot get more money between two funding periods.

we discussed this thing before I started the mod. Basically there are two ways: either mostly get rid of the "funding" as Kabill proposed, I guess partly for the reason you pointed. Or, while this feature takes such a big place in game interface, try to make full use of it.

This mod is obviously attempts to achieve the 2nd option. It's a secret project, not an open market where you freely sell alien artifacts to anyone who pays. Governments give you extra cash for artifacts but the main income is monthly funding based on your effectiveness. You have to plan your expenses, not necessary I say it's a better approach but IMO proven to be fully acceptable. The only thing I miss is a clear big number for the "funding bonus" in a GC results screen and when you take down any UFO.

I fully understand "second approach". However this type of games always loses much (or even completly) it's "magic" when there is nothing to advance. This "magic" usually means something great to achieve and in case of failure, knowledge that next time it can be achieved. This also causes "I play just ONE MORE battle" -thing. That kind of "magic" is quite absent in this mod. That is why it feels somewhat lame for me.

Soldier losses should have some effect, now veteran vs rookie difference is too small. This mod don't feel like original UFO

I'm still trying to find a good balance point. Look what we have now:

- APs grow faster than in vanilla

- Accuracy the same speed

- Strength is much slower, but starting values are higher. So the "natural" difference is bigger than between a veteran and a rookie. I'm still thinking it's fine (note the modding flexibility here is limited).

- HP grows slower than in vanilla. I'm seriously thinking about changing this back.

- Bravery grows only for medals and ranks earned. Good IMO. Notice that a minimum in-GC starting bravery is always 50. This stat should not be viewed alone but as part of the morale/psionic balance, which I like as is.

- Reactions mostly do not grow, but starting values are higher. For now I like it as is.

Better yes. This also has good point, because suicide tactics works at least some way, because soldiers are not too valuable. Just like on original UFO. Of course dropship space limits this but still, not losing huge amount of money when couple of soldiers dies.

That is better but still I prefer giving more rewards so that player actions REALLY make difference, just like on original. I just tried what difference makes (Veteran difficulty) playing on "cheat mode" (build two more bases and radar coverage, drop down every ufo that is realistically possible, win every ground battle with no losses, clear one enemy outpost with no losses, reload if ufo spawns suck) and "fast forward mode" (don't do anything so that aliens can do what they want). And difference is?

What exact number do you think is right and why? You don't want to just have big numbers right? ))

I'll put some more thoughts after your reply, for now just note:

- you are talking about the first two months which should be relatively easy IMO. It's a mistake to extrapolate this for the whole game period.

- monthly funding is a _much_ more valueable thing than cash. If you finish the game in April, every 10k of funding earned in September give you like 60-70k overall game value.

- not sure but seems you misinterpret the results a little bit. In the end, you must count in not only cash/funding but the price of all buildings/weapons/planes/etc you accumulated (and the research progress counts here too!)

Not just big numbers but also what you can get with those numbers. Even when taking cheaper costs into account, that is very little. Compared to vanilla. Estimating first two months:

(Average)about 5 UFO spawns per month, about 10 total, about 5-6 UFO's per spawn, drop down 4 UFO's per spawn, ground combat 2 UFO's per spawn (and airstrike rest).

Estimated money gain for selling loot:

Airstrikes average 20000*20=400 000

Ground combat average: 50000*20=1 000 000

Total estimated gain from battles: 1,4 000 000

And that difference gets much bigger when game goes on. And it makes feel your actions really have some effect.

However I think that with some modding I can change these things to something I like so it's better I waste my time on modding instead commenting here :)

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I fully understand "second approach". However this type of games always loses much (or even completly) it's "magic" when there is nothing to advance. This "magic" usually means something great to achieve and in case of failure, knowledge that next time it can be achieved. This also causes "I play just ONE MORE battle" -thing. That kind of "magic" is quite absent in this mod. That is why it feels somewhat lame for me.

I understand what you mean, good points. IMO not too much can be done w/o seriously changing many the aspects of the game. So the main option is as I said above: neglect this monthly funding, compensate with much more "cash" from GC. This way a player gets immediate reward for a GC, and that should boost the "one more battle and I buy that thing" desire. I expect to see something like this in a mod Kabill implements now

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As i see podbelski's game aspect is different.. it wont fit for everybody and he does not try to do it. Its like a "choice". I can understand what WTYD try to say and i believe that majority got this idea including me.. So X-Division is much more "hard work-good advance" style.

I am waiting kabills secret mod projects too.. i think he will create another point of view...

Mods are not aims for majority of players, mods are what modder want to see. Then players who thinks like that modder, helps to improve that mod with testing, helping..

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for the 2nd part, this time it feels lame from my point of view ))

I abaddoned my first vanilla playthrough after 3 months into a game, then switched to XNT and almost forced myself to finish the game once, and could not get past December in the next 4 or 5 attempts. It always went the same way: take down all the UFOs, complete all the GC, make a ton of money, maintain total supremacy. Then just airstrike everything for 2-3 months, catch a leader and a praetor, win the game - this phase was done once and another one partly, very boring.

Big addition was low GC variety (mostly crashsites), and the amount of GC in early game. When bigger ships like cruisers/carriers/battleships start spawning I could just say huh? More GC and bigger? No thanks I feel enough for this run.... restart the game)

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... so I tried to address this problems in my mod, and IMO quite successfully:

- early/midgame amount of GC is much less so at least I get bored only towards the very end of the game

- I don't see how a player can avoid full variety of possible GC

two more aspects was experimental: I mean soldiers stats growth, which I see is a partial success as I had to revert back some things.

Another one is discussed funding thing: I did my best to make it important in the game, but from given feedback probably have to admit: it's the inferior approach if you count in the "fun" factor. But I can fully admit this only when I see a working and well-balanced mod implementing the opposite approach

Edited by podbelski
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... one more thing, now I'm again playing Veteran difficulty, and the first Nov wave gives me between more than 200k or even 300k+ of funding _damage_ if I just sit and watch. That's a huge ton of money - as it's a monthly funding.

if I do my best and fight I end up having a surplus both in cash and funding, so the difference is very big even for one wave. And it's still the beginning of the game. So I still think _some_ of your conclusions are not correct b/c you focus on the very beginning and ignore the rest.

Edited by podbelski
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@drages

Right. @podbelski tries to make what he thinks is good and that's his choice. I fully understand what he is trying even I disagree with many points. He is mod maker so there is no discussion who decides and who don't.

I'll switch my attention to X - Division.

@podbelski

Yes, it seems this mod tries to achieve different approach and it may not appeal to everyone, including me. It is however well polished and offers "non micro-management but still more" -approach to vanilla. I also tried little modding (increase UFO spawns, more loot money, little less durable UFO's, decrease ticker etc) to create "despair" -approach. Feels like overwhelming invasion, but there is still chance. It did seem to work, at least some way.

But as it seems this mod is not for me, I do not waste any more time and attention. I hope this mod will get even better if the future. WTYD out.

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