Jump to content

Xenonauts General Ideas (improving the experience)


Recommended Posts

Hello there

Im Freeze, huge fan of X-com and UFO series of games (maybe with exception of latest X-com Enemy Unknown) and I'm pretty happy to tell that Xenonauts made me feel this feeling when played old UFOs in my childhood, even through I re-play them from time to time on dosbox. Really impressive.

Now, through my gameplay, I've made a list of possible changes to make this game even more impressive. I don't know if any of those would end up in the original product (probably not) but still, I would be happy if some of them do, especially on higher difficulty settings. I would try to add at least some of them with mods (since many of those are in bare .xml) but I doubt that everything listed could be done like that.

The point of these changes is to increase difficulty level, add extra features, stop monotony, bring more of the old Xcom feel to the field and especially

Well, lets get it started.

GLOBAL

Global Control

1. Ability to upgrade radar/fighter speed during the course of the game.

Why: Map control and UFO chasing are the strategic part of global mode. The thing is - on higher difficulty settings UFOs are extremely annoying to catch. You need to count on pure luck that UFO will turn in direction You want it to to get it. To compensate for this upgrade, UFOs AI could guide them to run away from fighters if their win chance is lower than 30/20%

2. Base defenses shoot actual projectiles(on the map) in incoming UFOs.

Why: Primary - this removes the artificial "reducing enemy strike force" and "percentage to shoot down". The former would be automatically reduced, just as if UFO takes damage from fighters.

Secondary - this makes the static defenses actually viable and reliable solution. It improves the actual global control in the country base is created on, and thus so, it makes the base positioning even more important.

Economy

1. Every weapon, ammunition, armor and such must be manufactured or bought (#2)

Why: I know why charges are unlimited - to reduce learning curve on Xenonauts. The thing is, people playing on veteran or insane difficulties do not need such. And, if this is possible, it would be nice to get this change in the official Xenonauts release. It is more of a very fun feature than difficulty increase.

2. Ability to not only sell, but also buy (at least the most basic) equipment in the storage screen. (optional for #1)

Why: To compensate the first part, there could be "shop" in storage where we could buy basic equipment without need to overburden the workshop, and with little to no time consumed.

3. Store the alien weaponry and equipment instead of auto-selling it.

Why? Somebody want to use it sometimes. Especially alien grenades, because they easily do 180 damage per tick. If we want extra money, we could sell them from Storage screen in any time.

Tech Tree

1. Tiering (we cant move to the further tier without doing all the research from previous tier)

Why: There are many neat equipment parts hidden there, and I remember playing Xenonauts for the first time. I've researched combat shield upgrade alongside best armor in the game, which is pretty bad, especially because that research was just sitting there, waiting to be done. Doing this faster would give me good defense power spike I've needed, but how could I know? Rushing new weapon types is still the best idea.

Fighter Equipment

1. Universal slots (we could easily fit any type of weapon there (except torpedo), depending on situation and mission)

Pretty self explanatory

2. Specialized torpedo/missile types

a) Area cover, to hit many targets at once

b) Armor-piercing (explained later)

c) Armor-shred (explained later)

More strategic and tactical decisions regarding fighters are always nice to have.

Fighter Combat

1. Add BORDERS to the combat area.

Again, it is self explanatory. One of many frustrating things about this game is that the grid is too bleak (especially on darker monitors or lower gamma) and we often do not see where the 'combat area' borders end, resulting in clicking there unintentionally. In fast combat it could lead to fighters really leaving the combat zone or loss in maneuverability to the point of getting shot.

2. Skill based combat.

a) Ability to choose in which direction we want to do evasive maneuver

b) Increase in speed for fighters, increase in turn rate for UFOs

Why: To make it funnier to play. It is frustrating when fighters do not turn in the direction we want them to. Also it is pretty funny to watch "super mobile" UFOs that have slower turn rate than Condors.

3. Armor Value (alongside health points decrease by 20%-40%)

UFOs start to have armor values decreasing the damage received by the flat amount. It results in heavier crafts being completely invulnerable to cannon damage without armor shred missiles. Armor-piercing missiles ignore (all, or part of) this value, but never decrease it.

4. UFO Critical Points

Skillshooting torpedo right in the UFO cockpit between huge arms should result in victory. More skill based combat is the way to go.

OPERATIONAL

Soldier and Equipment

1. Attribute based soldiers

Strength, Agility, Perception, Accuracy, Reaction Time, etc

Actually important statistics (like TUS or HP) should be derived from the base attribute to stop mindless farming. For now, it is automatically increased no matter what we do on a mission, no matter what class soldier have.

On the other hand, to stop soldiers from being too strong, the numbers are capped at 100. Such virtual capping is really not nice.

To prevent such situation I propose to cap attributes, not statistics.

The borders could be even raised, to reach 120 TUS when Agility, Perception and Reaction Time are all maxed at once. Maxing them through will be tough as nails.

I can create proper statistic deriviations if needed.

2. Perk and Talent system

To spice up the gameplay, each soldier could, on reaching every new rank, gain some kind of perk or talent only he can use.

I do not mean bad things like Airstrikes, or magic rocket launchers 'ala Xcom Enemy Unknown.

More like commando perk, that could enable soldier to swap positions freely.

Spotter perk, that give accuracy bonus for whole team only in the turn when particular enemy was spotted for the first time.

Ability to shoot from mid-air with buzzard armor on.

You got the idea.

Scale perks up to Commander, then give requirements for every one that soldier must meet to reach such 'upgrade'.

If player want some particular perk for the soldier, he could wait with choosing one until the soldier meet the requirements. But until he do choose one, soldier is stuck on his rank and cant gain any xp towards the next.

3. Separately upgreadable equipment

For the same reason as with the Perk and Talent system, to spice up gameplay, make the items soldier use independly upgradeable.

Sniper could use proper sniper rifle. But why not put the Scope upgrade on the typical M16 (and lose close-range bonus for long range accuracy) for the makeshift sniper rifle with burst fire mode?

Possibilities are endless on this layout. Upgrades could be tiered, just like the weapons are.

Some energy upgrades could make conventional weaponry return on the field in late game.

4.Hit Locations

I believe that it is not hard to add extra random value when shooting. This particular value will determine the exact location in which target is hit.

Hitting the legs would make the soldier fall prone. Hitting the arm could make soldier drop his weapon, or even make this arm unavaliable for the rest of the encounter, and limiting the soldier to using pistols. Hitting the head result in loss of perception. Hitting the body is the easiest for no bonuses.

Every hit location would have their own armor values, which still do not make them it stand for long in open fire.

This change could open up a gap for the possibility of introducing 'fallout-like' critical aiming, which is also a very good idea.

5. Falling Prone

As it says on the tin. Crouching do give increased protection and accuracy, but do not give player the option to completely hide behind those knee-high boxes and cover.

It could not give increased protection, just make the person not visible from over cover.

Enemies could exploit it as well. And know how to destroy cover the prone target is hiding in.

5. Effects

And now to the critical effects.

Falling prone. Falling unconsious. Getting yourself on fire. Poisoning. Radiation. "Alien Controlled". Covered in smoke. Covered in chemicals etc.

More and more effects applying on the battlefield.

Enemies

1.Energy shields

Higher ranked Aliens, especially officers, especially Caesans or Harridans, should have very high overall "armor" value, displayed as energy barrier around the wearer.

These shields easily handle projectile weaponry (taking only about half the damage from it), but have problem with energy weaponry and (new)MAGs.

This barrier also protect from anything that normally could get through, such as gas or fire.

2. Deployable energy shields

Every time I fight Sebillians they land up in a situations where they have little to no cover and take heavy beating.

Higher ranked Sebillians could have deployable energy shields in a form of 25% or 50% cover they could deploy on the battlefield to defend behind.

Such shields could have (if possible) the same properties as default Energy Shields have(projectile resilence, weakness to energy weapons).

3.Slight enemy changes

Changing default Alien rifles range to match typical human rifle range (now it is like sniper rifle)

Removal of Alien Control psychic ability (it is completely random through-the-wall attack that could only be blocked with ... luck)

4. Alien melee arsenal.

Ability for Alpha Reapers to jump on top of buildings and ambush the attackers from above (jumping)

Drones could intentionally suicide to deal the most damage

Sebillians could detonate explosives (grenades or other explosive charges) in close range to deal the most damage. This alien race, as their resilence allows, should mostly survive such run.

Harridans could flank and use energy swords. Slight change for their teleports not to drain 100% of their TUS on use should be nice too.

Ability to fight in melee with bare claws or with the use of rifle butt.

5. Return of Alien Biological Weaponry

Weapons that include spitting, vomit, mind-controlling drones that sit on your head.

It could also limit many alien weapons to alien-only with DNA compatibility.

Equipment

1. Conventional weaponry: revolvers, one-handed automatic weapons, short machine guns, knives. High Tier conventional weaponry could include full automatic shotguns, anti-tank rifles.

2. Ability to shoot with two one-handed weapons for one TUS cost and accuracy penalty. Could also be a talent from Perk and Talent system.

3. Specialized explosives: Conventional, Napalm, Gas, Plasma. Do not auto-replace the previous explosive type.

4. Specialized ammunition for weapons: Piercing, Emp, Toxic. For energy weapons: Low-Energy (more shots, lower power), Mid-Energy, High-Energy (lower shots, higher power), Positron batteries (offer extra damage against energy shields)

5. Ability to effectivelly use Alien weaponry against the invaders. The only drawback is limited ammunition and money lost in the process (they are highly valuable)

6. Logic fix: Removal for laser shotguns and precison lasers and human plasma weaponry. Include new type of weapons based on Plasma Weapon sprites: Positrons.

7. Positron weaponry: Weapons and equipment focused particularly to counter alien energy shields. It provides partial chance of ignoring such shield entirely.

This technology is also required to overload and move inside bigger capital ships protected by such.

8. Actual variety of weaponry

I wouldn't lie that I really don't like the whole concept of weaponry in Xenonauts. It derives highly from the new Xcom series of games, and as such, we do not have much to choose from.

Pistol, Shotgun, Rifle, Sniper Rifle and Heavy Weapon. In 4 different tiers, where only change between one tier and the other is slight accuracy loss and damage buff.

I remember the old games, where every weapon was heavily different from the other. Why it was lost and forgotten?

Laser heavy weapon should be a beam. To focus it in one place or to sweep and cut the cover with.

Plasma heavy weapon should be close range, like area super-shotgun.

Mag Heavy - like a super-sniper rifle, able to shoot once per three turns.

That would make the old Conventional Heavy weapon back to its might with toxic ammunition and only heavy with spread fire.

There should be differences between rifles, different max ammunition, ammunition consumption, damage, accuracy, handling. Some bigger rifles could block jumping over cover.

Variety. Not boredom.

And with those words I would end.

I am into game balance and game design since I am a kid, so I hope some ideas could be used effectivelly.

Thank You for reading. In the meantime, we could do a general idea thread here.

If You have any questions, write a PM, or better send an email to Fr33zerg@gmail.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ideas are good, most of them, but all of them just can't be applied to this game. All this changes will be balance breaking and maybe game concept breaking. They would suit well for some new tactic game maybe, but you just can't suddenly change the released game like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) TLDR. Summarize the ideas in the post or most people won't bother reading through it.

2) Feel free to create your own mods or request mods that do some of these, since the base game wont be changing to include anything here. There may be a few things you would like to see that already have mods (economy, weapons, etc).

Edited by ViewThePhenom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those ideas would certainly make the game more complex, but whether most of them would actually add to the gameplay experience is debatable.

In any case, the argument is largely academic - development has finished on Xenonauts now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those ideas would certainly make the game more complex, but whether most of them would actually add to the gameplay experience is debatable.

In any case, the argument is largely academic - development has finished on Xenonauts now.

this is sad, considering the amount of problems as the "finished" version has- wouldve been nice to have the flamethrower ingame as well as the different tier weapons being something else than model change and damage+20% as well as the missing plane and the mech. Oh, and the bug where shooting buildings enough with heavy plasma first deconstructs them into firewood blocks (vaporising everything inside) and then causing a CTD...

PS. oh, and forgot the lineofsight problems that let you see aliens inside the UFO between different floors.

Edited by corpse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe i read that the flamethrower caused lag problems. The "missing plane" was superfluous. The mechs had no definte roll that wasn't being played by something else.

The rest are bugs, and bugs is something the devs are working on fixing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if we worked on the game for another five years, we wouldn't be changing the weapon tiers or putting the plane or mechs we removed back in the game.

yes, that came rather clear and is really rather sad- in original XCOM games every weapon was different- if you look at ufopaedia you notice that pistol, laser pistol and plasma pistol are more than just reskin and +20% damage as makes sense- every rifle has different accuracy, tu cost and cip size modifiers as well. because one could think that upgrading from 5,56 to railguns firing at 5000m/s would increase the effective range.. or that 5 months into the conflict someone would make the astonishing idea that if shotgun single-fire isnt effective enough, why not add a little burst option to the next iteration of the gun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those ideas would certainly make the game more complex, but whether most of them would actually add to the gameplay experience is debatable.

Clear gameplay improvements are debatable? Complexity beating boredom is debatable? If yes, then what isn't ?

In any case, the argument is largely academic - development has finished on Xenonauts now.

And with this decision You ruin perfectly good game with potential to become big.

So, lets put it to trash then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@corpse, but none of that mattered, as the Heavy plasma had the right combination of power, accuracy and ammo to make every other weapon worthless. That's what happens when you alter weapons based upon mathematically calculable values, such as weapon stats. Some weapons will rise to the top as superior DPS and they won't necesarily be the ones the developer wants.

@Freeze, the game is already big. It's done well for Goldhawk. Check the developer diary to see just how big it is.

Edited by Max_Caine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@corpse, but none of that mattered, as the Heavy plasma had the right combination of power, accuracy and ammo to make every other weapon worthless. That's what happens when you alter weapons based upon mathematically calculable values, such as weapon stats. Some weapons will rise to the top as superior DPS and they won't necesarily be the ones the developer wants.

i digress- heavily. the reason heavy plasma was the ultimate tool wasnt due to it being OP (tho it was) but due to the fact it was the only choice- given that after 3rd month or so it was the only weapon aliens deployed, it was the only one you could have ample ammo for. Furthermore, if the weapons had differing stats (say, give us a combat shotguns, give more ammo to some heavy gun magazines) it wouldnt mean theyd automatically become jack-of-all-stats, far from it. IN FACT, given the current setup where all ranges and ammo and accuracy remained written in stone, shotguns became worthless by the last mission: 85% of all the aliens i killed on the last 4 months of the game were with MAGSTORM/predator combination.

So no, by making new guns mere reskins and 20% damage increases, goldhawk (chris) did *not* gain any sort of magical "balance" in the game any more than making the new guns actually better and different than the previous ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me give you another example. Jagged Alliance 2 has lots of guns. Hundreds of guns. The Fan-made patch (available form the Bears Pit! Go get it now!) added even more guns, separated into tiers of advancement, with each tier and each class having no less than five guns, and usually far more. In one the blog posts the developers of the patch talked through the pain-staking process of modelling those guns as closely as possible to their real-world equivalents.

Then a guy came along, plugged it all into an Excel spreadsheet and was able to mathematically prove which guns were the best in every class and every tier to take. Once you start varying weapons on calculable statistics, certain guns will rise to the top and variety or choice becomes a worthless illusion, because a weapon or a small group weapons will be absolutely the best picks.

The Heavy Plasma may be the sole weapon used after a specific time, but that doesn't stop it from being the best for the job. If the plasma pistol or the plasma rifle were as valuable as the Heavy Plasma, then it would be in players interests to make those weapons and manufacture ammo for them. But it isn't, because it isn't. From ufopedia, in the description for the Heavy Plasma:

As this is practically the be-all-and-end-all general purpose firearm in the game, there is little need to make any real recommendations for its usage as it will fit most of your needs except for its size and lack of unlimited ammo.

What can be recommended is that you'll eventually get PILES of these things in storage after a few successful missions. After you've stored what you need on the Skyranger, don't be afraid to sell the entire lot of them as there'll only be more on the way. Feel free to make use of the generous cash injection by investing it in other aspects of saving the world.

And

  • [*]Do you desire to wield inhuman power against the invading aliens? This is the weapon for you. It's often able to drop a Muton in a single shot.

[*]This weapon also comes into its own destroying the internal bulkheads, doors, floors, and ceilings of UFOs. Want a door somewhere that there isn't one? Bring in a Heavy Plasma and make one.

Simply put, the Heavy weapon is the superior weapon due to its combination of stats, as is inevitable when you don't use many non-calculable stats. It rises to the top and virtually nothing else can shift it. But if you don't like it, there are plenty of mods you can get your teeth into, which will satisfy your need for every gun under the sun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The balance of the game was significantly improved by making the upgraded guns straight damage increases. The optimum strategy in the original X-Com is to rush Heavy Plasmas because they're totally overpowered and you never need any other advanced gun - it's nothing to do with the fact they're the only weapon you get late in the game.

We added the weapon variation within the tier, rather than between the tiers. Most people don't equip their entire squads in Xenonauts with exactly the same weapon, whereas most people equip their entire squads with Heavy Plasmas in X-Com.

You can find a mod to change it if you'd rather have things the old way (you're entitled to play the game however you like), but please don't tell me that it would improve game balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IN FACT, given the current setup where all ranges and ammo and accuracy remained written in stone, shotguns became worthless by the last mission: 85% of all the aliens i killed on the last 4 months of the game were with MAGSTORM/predator combination.

I'm not sure that's a comparable situation, though, since Predator armour *forces* you to use heavy weapons and significantly buffs them. Arguably, the problem is Predator armour rather than weapon balance.

(Heavy weapons are well balanced compared with other weapons under normal situations. Predator armour removes more or less all their restrictions by making them mobile and removing recoil/low STR penalties for firing. If there's a problem, then, it's not that other weapons lack variety, it's that they were never balanced against the super-powered predator-with-heavy-weapon.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Clear gameplay improvements are debatable? Complexity beating boredom is debatable? If yes, then what isn't ?

I only read trough about half of it, but most of it is was either flat out wrong (like having to hope a UFO turns the right way to catch it - just make sure to send a up to date interceptor with the speed to catch it) or stuff I feel would make the game worse. No, they're not clear gameplay improvements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that's a comparable situation, though, since Predator armour *forces* you to use heavy weapons and significantly buffs them. Arguably, the problem is Predator armour rather than weapon balance.

(Heavy weapons are well balanced compared with other weapons under normal situations. Predator armour removes more or less all their restrictions by making them mobile and removing recoil/low STR penalties for firing. If there's a problem, then, it's not that other weapons lack variety, it's that they were never balanced against the super-powered predator-with-heavy-weapon.)

no, the problem lies in the inherent enemy leveling. after very first tier where a shotgun-to-the face is still pretty guaranteed 1HKO is behind you there are literally zero weapons that you can reliably use to kill an enemy in one action with one unit. at MAG tier even a burst from point blank with a rifle has a decent chance of not killing an enemy unit- meaning it will on worst case retaliate immediately or on its own turn. heavy weapon with the 10rd salvo is pretty much the only weapon aside a singularity cannon where a line of fire within 10 tiles equals guaranteed neutralization of an enemy unit. this in turn means that you either take the "easy route" by fielding large numbers of heavy weapons or the long route of coming up with 3-or 4-step plans with multiple units to take out a single enemy.

and saying that heavy weapons are "balanced" outside predator armor is plain wrong: the ballistic MG at the early-game is ridiculously useless and of every player i so far have asked i have not seen a single player who has found any use for it.

Caine, having 10 assault rifles of which 1 is better than the rest is a totally different scenario than having 4 tiers of weapons where the tiers improve or modify stats beyond static damage increase- because lets face it, in xenonauts the next tier of guns could just be bypassed with "+20 damage" research and a new LED light at the gun..

P.S it tells much that you say the "problem" is that the predator actually makes heavy weapons efficient.

Edited by corpse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm addressing the inital point that you raised, namely:

yes, that came rather clear and is really rather sad- in original XCOM games every weapon was different- if you look at ufopaedia you notice that pistol, laser pistol and plasma pistol are more than just reskin and +20% damage as makes sense- every rifle has different accuracy, tu cost and cip size modifiers as well. because one could think that upgrading from 5,56 to railguns firing at 5000m/s would increase the effective range.. or that 5 months into the conflict someone would make the astonishing idea that if shotgun single-fire isnt effective enough, why not add a little burst option to the next iteration of the gun.

You rapsodise on variety between weapon tiers. I have now shown two solid examples that variety is illusion when using calculable statistics, first with the Heavy Plasma, then with JA2. At no point is this a "totally different scenario", as these are the points you raised to begin with. If you don't want to discuss it, fine. But please don't try to cover up your own talking points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

no, the problem lies in the inherent enemy leveling. after very first tier where a shotgun-to-the face is still pretty guaranteed 1HKO is behind you there are literally zero weapons that you can reliably use to kill an enemy in one action with one unit.

That's not true. A MAG carbine does 85 damage/pellet (average) for a total of 255 (assuming all hit). Alien HP cap at 270 (for Wraith Elites), 240 (for Sebellian Elites) and 200 or less for everything else.

In comparison, a basic shotgun does 25 damage/pellet (average) for a total of 75 (assuming all hit). Alien HP vary from 45 (Caesan non-com) to 75 for a Sebillian Guard (and more if you encounter Soldiers before upgrading to Laser weapons).

I'm too lazy to write out all the maths, but on the basis of this the chance of killing early game aliens with a shotgun is pretty much identical to killing late game aliens with a MAG carbine. (And that's ignoring the fact that you don't always fight the top-tier aliens in late game either).

As for your argument about the early game LMG: it's far from useless and I get a lot of mileage out of it in terms of suppression.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The balance of the game was significantly improved by making the upgraded guns straight damage increases. The optimum strategy in the original X-Com is to rush Heavy Plasmas because they're totally overpowered and you never need any other advanced gun - it's nothing to do with the fact they're the only weapon you get late in the game.

We added the weapon variation within the tier, rather than between the tiers. Most people don't equip their entire squads in Xenonauts with exactly the same weapon, whereas most people equip their entire squads with Heavy Plasmas in X-Com.

You can find a mod to change it if you'd rather have things the old way, but please don't tell me that it would improve game balance.

And this is soooooooo wrong interpretation of anything that has been tried to say so far. i yet have to see a single post that requests a single-purpose all-powerful weapon in here given that the request be that weapons change in some other way than direct damage upgrade. lets elaborate: increase magazine size on higher-tier heavy weapons or decrease damage but make them shoot 20 shots per salvo. increase range on higher-tier sniper rifles. give some higher-tier shotgun a burst fire and increase the ridiculous effective range of the rifle and so on and so on.

the "balance" isnt a two-forked choice between static guns which dont change at all and "heavy plasma", and i find it weird how that is so hard to grasp. and the idea that the current iteration is "balanced" because the weapons remain the same is just as biased.

Edited by corpse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not true. A MAG carbine does 85 damage/pellet (average) for a total of 255 (assuming all hit). Alien HP cap at 270 (for Wraith Elites), 240 (for Sebellian Elites) and 200 or less for everything else.

In comparison, a basic shotgun does 25 damage/pellet (average) for a total of 75 (assuming all hit). Alien HP vary from 45 (Caesan non-com) to 75 for a Sebillian Guard (and more if you encounter Soldiers before upgrading to Laser weapons).

I'm too lazy to write out all the maths, but on the basis of this the chance of killing early game aliens with a shotgun is pretty much identical to killing late game aliens with a MAG carbine. (And that's ignoring the fact that you don't always fight the top-tier aliens in late game either).

As for your argument about the early game LMG: it's far from useless and I get a lot of mileage out of it in terms of suppression.

except for one concept: guaranteed.kill. deduce from your own post does this mean that your point-blank shot kills the alien ten out of ten times? no, it does not. one pellet misses? RIP xenonaut. all pellets hit and make "average" damage on that elite you mentioned? RIP xenonaut. THIS is why the predator-magstorm combination gets so much use. point blank salvo has high enough overflow that the salvo is a guaranteed kill (10xwhatever damage it does means you got about 3/4th of damage you can miss and still guarantee a kill)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ballistic machinegun is one of the most overpowered weapons in the game if used correctly. Using it properly is relatively advanced tactics but that doesn't make it useless.

Your point about adding more variation in weapon tiers is fine until you actually start to think about it, or try it. I'm sure you'd figure out most of the problems yourself if you actually tried to mod it into the game, but to give you an example: you were talking about giving MAG weapons extra range.

What would happen if you increased all their ranges by 20%? The precision rifles already have basically all the range they need, but the shotguns are intentionally a short range weapon. Give them an extra tile or two of range and suddenly they are pretty viable as medium-range weapons, leaving them with few weaknesses. Suddenly the best course of action is to give half your squad these new super-shotguns. So giving MAG weapons more range because they are railguns would ruin the tier weapon balance.

It's really not as easy as just saying "Hey, devs, you should have added more variation!" because if you follow your proposed changes through to their conclusion then you'll end up with making some weapons overpowered and others not. People don't have a choice about what weapons to use, instead they just have to use whatever weapon is overpowered in that particular tier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

except for one concept: guaranteed.kill. deduce from your own post does this mean that your point-blank shot kills the alien ten out of ten times? no, it does not. one pellet misses? RIP xenonaut. all pellets hit and make "average" damage on that elite you mentioned? RIP xenonaut. THIS is why the predator-magstorm combination gets so much use. point blank salvo has high enough overflow that the salvo is a guaranteed kill (10xwhatever damage it does means you got about 3/4th of damage you can miss and still guarantee a kill)

Yeah, the Predator gives a completely new ability and, to an extent, it unbalances the ground combat (which is sort of the point of it). You're complaining that it removes choice - you have to use the Predator / MAGSTORM, right? It's boring that there's no choice but use it.

What you're proposing would create exactly the same thing for every tier of weapon. Oh, you've got to use the rifle (or whatever) in the laser tier because whatever changes have been made to that tier make it the most powerful. Boring, because there's no choice.

Does that not strike you as ironic?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm addressing the inital point that you raised, namely:

You rapsodise on variety between weapon tiers. I have now shown two solid examples that variety is illusion when using calculable statistics, first with the Heavy Plasma, then with JA2. At no point is this a "totally different scenario", as these are the points you raised to begin with. If you don't want to discuss it, fine. But please don't try to cover up your own talking points.

and again, given that we have weapon categories we have yet to see me request multiple of the same weapon category on the same weapon tier (the JA problem) becuase that would be stupid, period. Furthermore, what you again assume i fail to grasp are the weapon categories: please point out where i request a rifle to outperform a sniper rifle on a sniper rifles territory on any tier whatsoever- because you willl not find such claim.

having rifle gain +10 range on the cahnge from 5,56 to LASERS does not mean you cannot have the LASER SNIPER rifle given same (or better) buff to keep the same tier sniper stilll more suitable to sniping.

But i understand the reasons it has been done- it is a very easy solution to keep every gun a copypaste since it means you only have to make a new model. it however, does not mean it is the best solution and hence my sadness about it.

P.S on the chris's coment on xenonauts squads wielding other than single type of gun, please do remember the other important statistic: rather than carried into missions, which guns are actually used to kill aliens and in what ratio, because that is where the true "balance" resides.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

except for one concept: guaranteed.kill. deduce from your own post does this mean that your point-blank shot kills the alien ten out of ten times? no, it does not. one pellet misses? RIP xenonaut. all pellets hit and make "average" damage on that elite you mentioned? RIP xenonaut. THIS is why the predator-magstorm combination gets so much use. point blank salvo has high enough overflow that the salvo is a guaranteed kill (10xwhatever damage it does means you got about 3/4th of damage you can miss and still guarantee a kill)

Let's quote you again:

after very first tier where a shotgun-to-the face is still pretty guaranteed 1HKO is behind you there are literally zero weapons that you can reliably use to kill an enemy in one action with one unit.

Your claim was that at the beginning of the game, the shotgun is "pretty guaranteed" to kill an alien in one hit. But, as I've shown, this isn't true. Most early game aliens have between 60-75HP, while the shotgun does on average 75 damage if all pellets hit. That's not very certain at all. Similarly, most late game aliens have 200-250ish HP and the MAG carbine does 255 damage on average. That's almost exactly the same chance of getting a one-hit-kill.

As such, you're assertion that shotguns get less powerful as a result of alien levelling is wrong. The probability they will get a one-hit-kill against enemies of an equivalent tier is more or less exactly the same at the beginning of the game as it is at the end.

I therefore return to my original point: the heavy weapons become better because they gain several advantages with Predator armour that they don't have beforehand. Yes, a MAGSTORM is a much more reliable killer when given to a Predator armoured soldier than a Sentinel armoured soldier with a MAG Carbine. I was never disputing that. But that's not because the MAG Carbine got worse relative to the enemies you're facing, it's because the MAGSTORM is stronger as a result of the mobility and accuracy afforded it by wearing Predator armour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...