StellarRat Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Just blow the door and quit worrying about the whole situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Except 2 things: a) opening doors does not invoke reaction fire b) as stated, aliens can open doors without being behind one. so in case the alien just opens a door and shoots, your reaction fire will come after that shot. now how many lucky heavy plasma shots can one xenonaut operative take to the face? I never said the door openeing caused the reaction shot. usually my naut's are 8-10 tiles away and kneeling when the alien walks through the door. It's them taking that extra step (usually to get in range to throw a grenade at my shield guy) that makes my 2 snipers, 2 heavy gunners and 4 riflemen shoot the xeno down. Yeah, sometimes they just shoot. That's why everybody's on thier knees. often their shot will miss. If not then the armour usually saves the life of the poor naut who was hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Msungo Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think some people here need to work on their reading comprehension. The dev clearly states that AI does NOT get any information about Xenonauts position that it doesn't get legitimately (from sight and seeing the shots). I see a lot of people here interpreted his explanation about aggressive trigger for the Aliens as being triggered by the proximity of Xenonauts. That is not what he said, he said that every turn there's about 10% chance (so it happens about once in 10 turns) that the Aliens will be fed aggression into their routine, making it more likely that they decide to do something aggressive (because otherwise they would sit still, or have to have scripted "idle" movements). The reasoning, I imagine, is to force you to consider the possibility of them charging out of places, or a possibility of them staying hidden behind some cover, and then surprising you later because you missed to check that area before proceeding. Because otherwise, they would get no triggers to do anything, or if they could only react, it would limit the usefulness of various Alien defensive positionings. As a blatant example, without that random aggressive routine, you would have 100% easy job of setting up an UFO raid, since you would have nothing to fear, if they are holed in, they would stay holed in till they see you. Another way to solve it, but it would work only for UFO scenario, would to consider UFO having cameras/line of sight itself, but that would give too much advantage to the Aliens, and it would make Aliens camping behind non-UFO covers much less of a threat. TL;DR l2read, the aggressive "trigger" that got mentioned by the dev, is not triggered by your actions, but its a completely random chance to feed aggression into the AI behavior formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steave Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think some people here need to work on their reading comprehension. Earlier on, Legit said this: I'm sorry, maybe I'm not getting it. My understanding of it is that once xenonauts get close enough to the aliens, they "trigger" aggressive behavior: either putting the aliens on high alert, or causing them to berserk charge towards the nearest xenonauts occasionally. GJ responded with: It's more or less how it works. The AI is just fed the aggressivity along with the normal information.So the AI might still decide not to act on it. Keep in mind though that this happens with about 10% chance (hence the once in ten turns comment). So it seems like that agressivity trigger only happens if you get too close. I don't mind either way though. The game plays out fine anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpse Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think some people here need to work on their reading comprehension.The dev clearly states that AI does NOT get any information about Xenonauts position that it doesn't get legitimately (from sight and seeing the shots). I think most people here tend to disagree because of personal experience to the contrary. having seen a caesan throw a grenade over a fence at three guys and hitting a bullseye tends to make you cough- given that it was the first turn and therefore the specific caesan had zero chance of seeing any of the 3 dudes (due to the aforementioned tank-proof fence.) ofc, before the inquisition asks, no i did not save that particular game and the auto-save is long gone i suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijs-Jan Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) This post is a bit more direct to the point just to clarify everything, I love the fact that you guys try to analyze the AI in the game, much as I did years ago in Xcom:EU. I also love the discussion and interaction, and as during development will try to incorporate things which are interesting. I'm also flattered by the people defending me in this subject. Thank you, and know that I do not see any of these posts as insult, only opportunity to either explain or efforts to help correct faulty AI behavior. God knows that the track record of bugs in the past resulted in some pretty weird behavior. So this isn't an angry post, it's just to clarify; as I seem to be contradicting myself and causing confusion: Yes, the aggressivity is triggered upon proximity. Yes, you could consider this to be cheating. (* See argument below) No, the AI still doesn't know exactly where you are. Just that it should move into a position you most likely will be. In case of UFO's, this results in storming outside. (As this is the most viable location for you to be; the AI knows the UFO is empty) * My Excuse: in a first iteration of the game, when probabilistic estimation of positions was enabled, the AI became near omnipotent legally because it had units spread out all over the map, and took into account that the Human player always arrives from a certain origin. It derived the almost exact position of every unit, legally. Why did I build in this cheat then? - It approximates the legal behavior; but only when we want it. - It doesn't give the AI legal omnipotence, which just plain sucks. - It's orders of magnitudes faster. (AI turn time decrease) Yes, I consider the case of the AI to know where you are in terms of grenading through/over doors a bug. However, it's most likely due to LOS calculation problems. The AI only uses the logic of the game to tell it whether it should be able to see something. In the past it's been shown that some UFOs have problems with LOS not being calculated correctly symmetrically. (I can see you; you can't see me) Yes, I consider AI omnipotence a bug. It should not happen, and I will deal with it on a case by case basis. The cases I asked a save of, I found to be suspect. No, I don't consider the AI becoming aggressive as you move near it a bug. It has no situational awareness; it does not know your TU, your weapons & etc unless it has seen you. I consider this an opportunity for the player to become inventive and counter a threat. Player intelligence far outweighs the benefits received from this. No, I don't consider the AI rushing outside the UFO once you come near it to be a bug. Lore wise there is no reason whatsoever for it to not be able to view the tiles outside the UFO. (I personally think there's outside cam and/or windows) It creates for very entertaining play if you know how to counter it. The AI will also not start rushing units one after another in a Xcom:EU lemmings kind of death, and will "learn" if you camp the outside. Which the player then in turn needs to counter. Edited July 31, 2014 by Gijs-Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BULIGO Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Motion Scanner was one killer gadget back in X-com days. Judging by the tech level the aliens have, it would be logical to assume that they are able to make such a gadget without much effort. That assumption would cover some of the 'I-feel-you-Human' issues in the game *wink* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legit1337 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Yes, the aggressivity is triggered upon proximity. Yes, you could consider this to be cheating. (* See argument below) I do consider this "cheating". Again, just the mere fact that alien behavior changes in response to information that the aliens should not have (xenonaut proximity out of LOS) firmly roots this as "cheating" territory in my mind. The lore justification of having cameras or motion detectors on the outside of UFO hulls is not valid either, because this kind of behavior is present outside of UFOs as well, even in xenonaut bases if you look at the example provided by the OP. However, I understand why this mechanic was put into the game and I have no problem playing with it. Just as I would have no problem playing with an AI that got artificial boosts in other games to help compensate it against the player. It also makes the game more tense, knowing that the aliens could burst out at you at any moment. That is not a bad thing. To be honest, the thread title sums up my opinion perfectly. Edited July 31, 2014 by legit1337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) No, I don't consider the AI becoming aggressive as you move near it a bug. It has no situational awareness; it does not know your TU, your weapons & etc unless it has seen you. I consider this an opportunity for the player to become inventive and counter a threat. Player intelligence far outweighs the benefits received from this.No, I don't consider the AI rushing outside the UFO once you come near it to be a bug. Lore wise there is no reason whatsoever for it to not be able to view the tiles outside the UFO. (I personally think there's outside cam and/or windows) It creates for very entertaining play if you know how to counter it. The AI will also not start rushing units one after another in a Xcom:EU lemmings kind of death, and will "learn" if you camp the outside. Which the player then in turn needs to counter. May I make a couple of suggestions (I will anyway, LOL)?Why don't you just have the aliens become aggressive using a random number instead of when the humans get close? That will solve the omnipresence problem. It's fairly logical that they'd run out and look around every once in a while just to make sure someone isn't skulking about in their area. Just like human armies do when they send out patrols. Maybe there is a 20% chance on any given turn that they'll go aggressive. As far as the aliens being able to detect you when you are close to their UFO or in their bases, absolutely! In fact, I'd just give them the exact location of the humans at all times when you're in their UFO or base. Maybe give the aliens your locations whenever your within 5 or 10 tiles of their UFOs on the outside too (or cause them to become aggressive like you do now.) However, if you do that, I think it's only fair that the humans know where all aliens are when they're defending an XCom base. Edited July 31, 2014 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntalas Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 However, if you do that... ... every mission will end up being a massacre and everyone will quit the game in rage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 ... every mission will end up being a massacre and everyone will quit the game in rage! It really wouldn't change the balance much. In fact, I would argue it might make it easier on the humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegeri Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 This was an interesting read. At least now I know why the game pulls off the most ridiculous out of nowhere grenade assaults when you move near a door in bases or UFOs. I've become so petrified of doors, I run rookies with almost no equipment (but as many TUs as possible) up to them, open the door, shoot the nonsense out of the aliens (with my more distant firing line) and close it. Then run away. Oddly enough this almost entirely abuses this AI system by coincidence: As I am not hanging out near enough to the door the aliens inside just camp there like ducks at a shooting gallery. Run back, open door, close door, run away. ETC. Never leaving anyone too close to doors when I don't have to has been an extremely solid tactic. Unfortunately the way this AI works does feel very much like cheating to me. It pretty much ensures the aliens behavior is predictable in that stacking up on a door is always a dumb idea - but it gives them basically knowledge you're there (and I don't really believe it's a "guess", which results in an alien moving the precise distance to accurately grenade 3 guys it didn't know it was there). It's argued this makes the aliens "unpredictable", but I believe it does exactly the opposite: I know for a fact the aliens will camp out happily behind a door all day doing nothing at all unless I move near it in many cases. I can also abuse this completely predictable behavior by just using mobile soldiers to open, close and run away. I slowly shot my way through an entire base of Androns doing this the other day without taking even a single injury. If the aliens AI let them group up and try to come through doors instead of only responding when you're seemingly near it (as others have also pointed out) I think this would be much better behavior. As it is, I've seemingly been exploiting this aggressiveness AI feature the entire time without even understanding that was what it was doing. Or maybe they should just be more aggressive anyway? Door breaches in Xenonauts feel too all or nothing. You either do it a certain way or you just get shot to pieces as the AI gives the appearance of seemingly knowing exactly when you have no TUs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llunak Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I do consider this "cheating". Games "cheat" all the time. There are technical reasons for doing so, for example making the game run faster, or making the AI work better. As another example, aliens are allowed to run much faster, but only when the player does not see it, and it's in order to make the alien turn shorter. The only difference between these two cases is that players can more easily find out about the aggressivity change. As far as I'm concerned, the only "fix" needed might be making the aggressivity trigger much more likely to occur in case the player can see it taking place (IOW, after map reveal - it'd in fact make the game even better, because aliens are not really supposed to camp in terror or base attack missions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legit1337 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Games "cheat" all the time. There are technical reasons for doing so, for example making the game run faster, or making the AI work better. As another example, aliens are allowed to run much faster, but only when the player does not see it, and it's in order to make the alien turn shorter. The only difference between these two cases is that players can more easily find out about the aggressivity change. As far as I'm concerned, the only "fix" needed might be making the aggressivity trigger much more likely to occur in case the player can see it taking place (IOW, after map reveal - it'd in fact make the game even better, because aliens are not really supposed to camp in terror or base attack missions). Did you read the rest of my post? Or did you read the first few lines and make up the rest in your head? I was not advocating "fixing" anything, the system works fine as it is. However, I understand why this mechanic was put into the game and I have no problem playing with it. Just as I would have no problem playing with an AI that got artificial boosts in other games to help compensate it against the player. It also makes the game more tense, knowing that the aliens could burst out at you at any moment. That is not a bad thing. To be honest, the thread title sums up my opinion perfectly. I was just pointing out, the system in question is AI "cheating" by definition. Edited August 1, 2014 by legit1337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibelung44 Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 I for one would prefer to not have in any manner whatsoever the AI receiving special infos (even 10% chance) and instead have a 10% chance that at a given time they do a counter-assault, i.e they regroup and rush you to try overwhelming your position. That would be so much better, seeing 6 Androns at a time moving toward you, I imagine me pissing in my pants! I can kill 2, 3, 4 but I know I'll have casualties whatever I do. That would be epic in a sense. Now, what I do is a combination of cheap tactics like open door / fire/ close it, send a suicide rookie, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llunak Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Did you read the rest of my post? Or did you read the first few lines and make up the rest in your head? I used the quote merely as an intro, not as a suggestion that this thread revolves around you. I was not advocating "fixing" anything, the system works fine as it is. Of course. It is a widely known fact that people on forums have too much time on their hands and have nothing better to do than make 60+ posts on things that are fine as they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Guys, c'mon now, chill out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BULIGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 That would be so much better, seeing 6 Androns at a time moving toward you, I imagine me pissing in my pants! I can kill 2, 3, 4 but I know I'll have casualties whatever I do. That would be epic in a sense. Just downed my first alien Corvette and...it was full of those green Mutons..er..Androns. Them and their Cyberdisc pets! Scared me much. After some tedious complicated Industrial zone cat-n-mouse game, managed to breach the UFO and with large use of explosives and laser fire was left with one Andron alive pointing some horrible weapon to my shield-gal who had only the baton as weapon left, so she hightailed it out with the Andron in pursuit. Next turn, all I hear is some *PZZZZZTT-PZZZT-GRAAAAH* : the Andron walked through two fires raging in the UFO and died all by himself. Mission accomplished. Man, those fires are really something in Xeno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legit1337 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) I used the quote merely as an intro, not as a suggestion that this thread revolves around you. If you were addressing everyone in general, you would be better off not quoting specific people. When you do that it looks like you are directing your remarks towards them. It's like looking me directly in the eye, and saying something insulting, then getting mad when I take offense because you "were talking to someone else". Of course. It is a widely known fact that people on forums have too much time on their hands and have nothing better to do than make 60+ posts on things that are fine as they are. So the only time I'm allowed to post on a subject is when I want to complain about it? Guys, c'mon now, chill out. I suggest you shut down the thread. The discussion is practically over, and there is some pretty blatant flaming going on. Edited August 2, 2014 by legit1337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusherven Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I suggest you shut down the thread. The discussion is practically over, and there is some pretty blatant flaming going on. Or y'all could chill out and the rest of us can continue the discussion without you, if you feel you have nothing more to add. Unfortunately the way this AI works does feel very much like cheating to me. It pretty much ensures the aliens behavior is predictable in that stacking up on a door is always a dumb idea - but it gives them basically knowledge you're there (and I don't really believe it's a "guess", which results in an alien moving the precise distance to accurately grenade 3 guys it didn't know it was there). It's argued this makes the aliens "unpredictable", but I believe it does exactly the opposite: I know for a fact the aliens will camp out happily behind a door all day doing nothing at all unless I move near it in many cases. I can also abuse this completely predictable behavior by just using mobile soldiers to open, close and run away. I slowly shot my way through an entire base of Androns doing this the other day without taking even a single injury. That may be true, but the way it's implemented is going to feel unpredictable to most players. I personally, and I suspect many others, do not have the patience to wait ~10 turns or more camping before each room to wait for the aliens to come out and die. And I've seen no evidence at all that the AI knows when I have no TUs. I couldn't even tell you how many times I've blown through UFO's without saving TUs for reaction fire at all, without suffering for it. What's much scarier to me is getting a unit mind controlled because a wraith ported into LOS, or having a unit hallucinate and kill his neighbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammerHead Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I had a lot of situations where aliens were throwing grenades flawlessly under my soldier's feet, a soldier who was never, ever spotted, at that (he was well behind a wall). Let's just say that they have some extra senses. Also, I'm against shutting down the thread - just punish people who flame, discussion should always be welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsf77 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I hate doors and usually try to remove them before approaching them, I like to use scout car/tanks on the big UFO doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BULIGO Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I'm against shutting down the thread - just punish people who flame, discussion should always be welcome. I agree. Except for foul language, I usually don't mind fiery discussions. It's so easy to ignore the parts that don't amuse me and to read the ones that do. BTW forum mods had, have and always will have the means to cull unappropriate posts from the board. Make them earn their wage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 BTW forum mods had, have and always will have the means to cull unappropriate posts from the board. Make them earn their wage I find that inappropriate... Prepare to be culled. Plus I don't get any wages... On the topic though I have found some holes in the AI but not come across anything that makes me think the AI is blatantly cheating. I also don't see it as much of a problem if it does cheat, as long as it provides a challenge beyond just having bullet sponges charging at my troops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BULIGO Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I find that inappropriate... Prepare to be culled.Plus I don't get any wages... On the topic though I have found some holes in the AI but not come across anything that makes me think the AI is blatantly cheating. I also don't see it as much of a problem if it does cheat, as long as it provides a challenge beyond just having bullet sponges charging at my troops. The part you quoted out is missing the smiley. I did put it there for a reason Now that part looks sortof agressive Re the aliens: I admit, I am playing Xeno for just a couple days, and I can already notice some patterns emerging, how they move, they 'tactics' and how to use that against them. At the very start it was horrible: most of my X-com tactics didn't work at all, and I had to adapt. Still not sure if the aliens know 100% the location of each of my guys. If they have no clue, it would be easy to ambush them.Their agressiveness is their destruction. If they could camp and stay put, they could be more dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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