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Making the MIG researchable?


Chris

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I don't want to remove F17 and i dont want Mig32 to be more powerfull then interceptor in xcom. But what do we currently have?

Mig 32 looks more armoured, fast and advanced on the picture. It has more hardpoints. If you compare pictures of this two planes what plane would you choose to fight alliens? Mig32.

F17 should not be cheaper. No.

Edited by KOKON
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Mig32 seems not so much advanced to be a tech. I would like to have a low orbit intercetor instead. Based mostly on earth techs. Very fast small plane that can go around the earth but very expensive, having only 1 or 2 hardpoints and low HP.

Well if it can go above 200 km parabolic orbit then i would like alien ship to approach and capture this small plane with a pilot inside. That would be very scary for player.

Edited by KOKON
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PS. Jean-luc: Probe? Sounds very unmanned to me. I'm not sure what the point of sending a probe when the fleet is in orbit. Would that be to test the atmosphereic modifications? To gather information about the atmosphere or what? If its going to be shot down and have aliens running around in ground battle I think we should keep it as "light scout". DS.

It sounds unmanned but it needn't be and the point is the same as that of the "scout" whatever it may be. I just don't like the sound of light/heavy scout. A "scout" is typically light by default and it's fairly safe to assume that no other UFO has a light/heavy variant which kinda begs the question why does the scout, of all ships, have it. It sounds a bit contrived, like it was forced in there to fill a gameplay gap without fitting conceptually with the rest of the alien craft.

It could also be called a "Surveyor", a kind of non-military scouting craft that maps the land and water masses, records climate features, looks for good landing sites, etc. but doesn't gather detailed military intelligence like the Scout.

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Being able to manufacture the F-17 too, and the starter weapons, are must haves if the MiG is constructable. The fourth, empty, hanger should definitely be in too.

Mig32 seems not so much advanced to be a tech. I would like to have a low orbit intercetor instead. Based mostly on earth techs. Very fast small plane that can go around the earth but very expensive, having only 1 or 2 hardpoints and low HP.

Well if it can go above 200 km parabolic orbit then i would like alien ship to approach and capture this small plane with a pilot inside. That would be very scary for player.

That would be extraordinarily hard to research without alien technology, which is needed to cheat realistic research and design times.

If anything, the MiG-32 should be the Lockheed YF-12, which was faster, higher flying, had greater range than the MiG-32, flew 16 years before the game, fired the AIM-47, and wouldn't require any modification. It is also American, which is important because the Xenonauts equipment isn't mixed like the in-universe concept suggests. It's all US style, so might as well go whole hog.

I realize it's late for the art, but with the Soviet pack, the MiG-32 could be moved to that pack. The YF-12 would also create a striking visual difference against the F-17

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I don't get the logic that having to manufacture the F-17 (and associated weapons) is necessary if the MiG is researchable. One is already in use, the other is "researched" because it is obtained in order to fill a gap in current Xenonaut interception doctrine. It doesn't exactly stretch logic to assume that modifed F-17s can be bought in from suppliers because there is a pre-existing relationship there, given the fact the player starts with two of them already....

I also don't see any real value in adding geopolitical complexity to the funding arrangements at the start of the game either. I imagine we'll probably implement this idea as described in my earlier posts, it has grown on me quite significantly.

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YF-12 has only 3 missiles onboard. It could have a good range and speed but have a low ammo to fight alliens. And mig 32 can be more manuverable i.e. be more like F17.

As for low orbit interceptor it should use some allien technologies but the basic ones ie it is far less advanced then firestorm or lighning in xcom and it does not substitute MIG32/F17/YF-12. Because it is expensive and not cost effecient.

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I don't get the logic that having to manufacture the F-17 (and associated weapons) is necessary if the MiG is researchable. One is already in use, the other is "researched" because it is obtained in order to fill a gap in current Xenonaut interception doctrine. It doesn't exactly stretch logic to assume that modifed F-17s can be bought in from suppliers because there is a pre-existing relationship there, given the fact the player starts with two of them already....

I also don't see any real value in adding geopolitical complexity to the funding arrangements at the start of the game either. I imagine we'll probably implement this idea as described in my earlier posts, it has grown on me quite significantly.

No, increasing complexity for no other reason than complexity's sake is silly. Good on implementing it, it is a good idea. If you go with a "guided tutorial" you could have that initial research act as the tutorial research project.

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I would propoose the next planes. Note parameters marked with italics differ from v9.0

- F17 and Mig23 ----------------------------------------------------

Supposed to be the Xenonauts working horses. F17 has better armour but a little worce durability as it is smaller. It is just a matter of taste what plane to use. Mig looks more powerful but F17 has a lot of small advantages. Price, maintenence, manuverability, durability against low demage attacks, 150km radar, better perfomance of sidewinder missiles then on any other plane

-=== F17 ===-

Top spedd 1900 km/h

Range 16.5k km

Acceleration 300 km/h

Turn Rate 35 deg/sec

Armour 20

Durability 160

Hardpoints 2x heavy

Purchase cost 200k $

Maintenence cost 40k $

good electronics (+20% hit rate for sidewinder missiles)

works with laser weapons a little better then Mig32

-== Mig32 ==-

Top speed 2,600

Range 19k km

Accelertion 400km/h

Turn rate 25 deg/sec

Amour 15

Durability 200

hardpoints 4x heavy

Purchase cost 250k

Maintence cost 50k

- AF-12X ----------------------------------------------------------

Feature of YF-12 is that it can not kill big ufos because it does not have enaugh ammo and firepower. However it is durable enaugh, fast and longrange. It can be used to intercept small ufos or to act in a groups of 3 but that would be expensive

Top speed 3,600 km/h (1 km/s)

Range 22k km

Accelertion 380km/h (mig 31 has a little more powerfull powerplant irl)

Turn rate 22 deg/sec

Radar 150 km

Armour 12

Durability 200

Hardpoints - rotary missile launcher 3x rockets or laser/plasma

Purchase cost 400k

Maintenence cost 60k $

- Low orbit intencetor -------------------------------------------

This plane resolves it's fight quickly. It engages, hits the target in a 5 seconds combat and returns to base or dies. It can not be used with F17/MIG23 as it's throttle can not be set to fly on speeds below 3000 km/h. It lands without burning engines or uses a secondary low propulsion engine. It has a narrow cone radar so it can not detect new ufos on its own. It's refueling and repearing takes longer then for any other aircraft.

spiral2.jpg

Top speed 6,200 km/h (1.72 km/s)

Range 43k km

Accelertion 420km/h (human is unlikely to survive more without antigravitation inside a cabin)

Turn rate 10 deg/sec

Amour 25 (allien alloys basic integration. without research of allien alloys)

Durability 100 (small target)

Hardpoints - rotary missile launcher 3x rockets or laser/plasma

Manufacture cost 400k + engineers time, 50 allien alloys

Maintenence cost 60k $

How this fast plane performs:

1. It accelerates not very fast so it needs some time to gain its superspeed.

2. When engaged with enemy it has only some seconds to shoot one rocket or two before a close passing by. It does not have time to manuver or to disangage. If it engages battleship accidently then it's dead.

3. It can not change it's course quickly on the geoscape also. It would have to make a big circle if ufo changes it's course dramatically

----------------------------------------------------------------

All alien ships should be able to fly with a speed greater then 5400 km/h (1,5 km/s) but it just should depend on the mission they perform. In the beginning of the game aliens should usually fly slowly.

spiral2.jpg

spiral2.jpg.a9fdc2fb5a146c366b08e0b8acde

Edited by KOKON
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It sounds unmanned but it needn't be and the point is the same as that of the "scout" whatever it may be. I just don't like the sound of light/heavy scout. A "scout" is typically light by default and it's fairly safe to assume that no other UFO has a light/heavy variant which kinda begs the question why does the scout, of all ships, have it. It sounds a bit contrived, like it was forced in there to fill a gameplay gap without fitting conceptually with the rest of the alien craft.

It could also be called a "Surveyor", a kind of non-military scouting craft that maps the land and water masses, records climate features, looks for good landing sites, etc. but doesn't gather detailed military intelligence like the Scout.

Surveyor works for me ^^

I don't get the logic that having to manufacture the F-17 (and associated weapons) is necessary if the MiG is researchable. One is already in use, the other is "researched" because it is obtained in order to fill a gap in current Xenonaut interception doctrine. It doesn't exactly stretch logic to assume that modifed F-17s can be bought in from suppliers because there is a pre-existing relationship there, given the fact the player starts with two of them already....

I also don't see any real value in adding geopolitical complexity to the funding arrangements at the start of the game either. I imagine we'll probably implement this idea as described in my earlier posts, it has grown on me quite significantly.

Chris will the computer controlled allies (if they are implemented) use the MiG-32 as well? (Will they be useing F-17s btw?) What about saying that after researching the modifications they are shared to other countries (all of them or only the ones that produce MiG in the first place) that start produceing the aircrafts for their own airforce. That way you can simply buy it from them?

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I don't get the logic that having to manufacture the F-17 (and associated weapons) is necessary if the MiG is researchable.

It feels odd because the MiG is a famous long existing earth-tech plane and suddenly it has to be researched. It's like here's your pistol, assault rifle, sniper, MG, etc. but you have to "research" the shotgun.

Even when you say it's just being modified (rather than researched from scratch) it makes one wonder why is this modification so different from the ones done to the F-17. Why does this single piece of earth-tech that's based on something so "mundane" and well known (a MiG) need to go through a research process when everything does not? It just rubs one the wrong way and creates a sense of inconsistency (for me at least) regardless of rationalization.

In any case I just wanted to state the reason, I'll deal with it. Technically it is a good solution to all the opening stage (early game) issues.

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It feels odd because the MiG is a famous long existing earth-tech plane and suddenly it has to be researched. It's like here's your pistol, assault rifle, sniper, MG, etc. but you have to "research" the shotgun.

Even when you say it's just being modified (rather than researched from scratch) it makes one wonder why is this modification so different from the ones done to the F-17. Why does this single piece of earth-tech that's based on something so "mundane" and well known (a MiG) need to go through a research process when everything does not? It just rubs one the wrong way and creates a sense of inconsistency (for me at least) regardless of rationalization.

In any case I just wanted to state the reason, I'll deal with it. Technically it is a good solution to all the opening stage (early game) issues.

It has a long history of being used by the enemies of the U.S. (circa 1979) and not so much in use by the U.S. That may require it's manufacture if communist countries are unwilling to provide them, but I can hardly see a realistic reason for needing to research them as by 79 I think we had a pretty good idea how they were constructed.

Just my 2 cents. Won't break my heart either way.

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I don't get the logic that having to manufacture the F-17 (and associated weapons) is necessary if the MiG is researchable. One is already in use, the other is "researched" because it is obtained in order to fill a gap in current Xenonaut interception doctrine. It doesn't exactly stretch logic to assume that modifed F-17s can be bought in from suppliers because there is a pre-existing relationship there, given the fact the player starts with two of them already....

I also don't see any real value in adding geopolitical complexity to the funding arrangements at the start of the game either. I imagine we'll probably implement this idea as described in my earlier posts, it has grown on me quite significantly.

It's not that you would have to manufacture the F-17, it is that you can build it as well as buy it. That way it introduces the logic of building a MiG from scratch before that even happens, and maintains consistency in capability. Under the same logic, I had assumed the MiG was buildable and purchasable as well, with only alien based technologies being purely non-purchasable.

YF-12 has only 3 missiles onboard. It could have a good range and speed but have a low ammo to fight alliens. And mig 32 can be more manuverable i.e. be more like F17.

As for low orbit interceptor it should use some allien technologies but the basic ones ie it is far less advanced then firestorm or lighning in xcom and it does not substitute MIG32/F17/YF-12. Because it is expensive and not cost effecient.

The fourth bay is actually full of fire control electronics. Given 16 years between its first flight and the Xenonauts in '79, it's reasonable that the fire control equipment and radar could be made small enough that the fourth bay could hold a missile. If anything, giving it a smaller radar would keep the F-17's radar advantage.

I would actually make the YF-12, which would be the AF-12, the AF-12X, give it much lower turning than the MiG, and further reduced durability.

Edited by Bibidibop
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I like a plane durability to be correlated with a hull size. In turn general surviveability can be lowered with armour value. AF-12X would be a little bigger then Mig32 in a hangar and much bigger then F17. It would be not intuitive to make it die qiucker then F17.

In xcom the bigger airship the more hp it has. Even skyranger has more HP then intenceptor.

Edited by KOKON
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I still think if the research goes along the lines of: adapting anti-energy materials (or whatever) for a heavier chasis of aircraft, then that explains the introduction of the MIG-32. For whatever reason they had only been able to put it on the F-17, but now after years of research not only have they made the F-17, but they've managed to fit that armour on a MIG =]

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I still think if the research goes along the lines of: adapting anti-energy materials (or whatever) for a heavier chasis of aircraft, then that explains the introduction of the MIG-32. For whatever reason they had only been able to put it on the F-17, but now after years of research not only have they made the F-17, but they've managed to fit that armour on a MIG =]

Yeah, this is pretty easy to explain along these lines.

The F-17's already been refitted for anti-alien operations by the US personnel behind the inception of the Xenonauts; now that they have access to Soviet tech, they need some time to retrofit the MiG. Seems reasonable to me, no?

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My take on the Mig as a research project:

Xenonauts have only come across one ufo so far.

They had little hard data to work from.

They developed an interceptor that they felt would give them the best shot at taking out another ufo if it should arrive.

This was the f-17 and has been around for years so they are able to get hold of them when they need them.

Unfortunately when the aliens do return they bring a wider variety of ships.

Xenonauts command realise their current fighter, although useful in the role they designed it for, lacks firepower for some situations.

They send their scientists off to look at other available human aircraft and find that the Mig has a good balance of firepower and speed which meets their requirements for a heavy interceptor.

They also determine that with a few simple modifications, such as fitting some alloy armour plates over vital areas, it would be tough enough to do the job.

This is the research completed.

Now when Xenonauts command requisition a heavy interceptor from the Russians, which they supply as their treaty dictates, it needs a few days of work for the modifications to be done.

The f-17 doesn't need this time because it is an established, although secret, variant.

Sounds quite justified to me.

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It feels odd because the MiG is a famous long existing earth-tech plane and suddenly it has to be researched. It's like here's your pistol, assault rifle, sniper, MG, etc. but you have to "research" the shotgun.

Even when you say it's just being modified (rather than researched from scratch) it makes one wonder why is this modification so different from the ones done to the F-17. Why does this single piece of earth-tech that's based on something so "mundane" and well known (a MiG) need to go through a research process when everything does not? It just rubs one the wrong way and creates a sense of inconsistency (for me at least) regardless of rationalization.

In any case I just wanted to state the reason, I'll deal with it. Technically it is a good solution to all the opening stage (early game) issues.

Don't really see much of a problem :P if you consider it figuring out which plane is best suited for the role of dealing with UFOs, as in, which one is most available, which one takes the modifications, whatever they are, that Xenonauts make to planes the easiest, then that's that. It's not about "figuring out a whole new plane", but figuring out which plane, out of the many available.

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My take on the Mig as a research project:

Xenonauts have only come across one ufo so far.

They had little hard data to work from.

They developed an interceptor that they felt would give them the best shot at taking out another ufo if it should arrive.

This was the f-17 and has been around for years so they are able to get hold of them when they need them.

Unfortunately when the aliens do return they bring a wider variety of ships.

Xenonauts command realise their current fighter, although useful in the role they designed it for, lacks firepower for some situations.

They send their scientists off to look at other available human aircraft and find that the Mig has a good balance of firepower and speed which meets their requirements for a heavy interceptor.

They also determine that with a few simple modifications, such as fitting some alloy armour plates over vital areas, it would be tough enough to do the job.

This is the research completed.

Now when Xenonauts command requisition a heavy interceptor from the Russians, which they supply as their treaty dictates, it needs a few days of work for the modifications to be done.

The f-17 doesn't need this time because it is an established, although secret, variant.

Sounds quite justified to me.

Well when you put it that way... =p

Na sounds good, I guess I just never saw it that way but it makes sense to me now too =]

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I would like to have more planes potentially. This thing cuts their number.

How many unique planes will we be able to controll?

In apocalypse you could buy up to 10 different apparatus to fight aliens initially and 13 xcom apparatus totally. What is the problem to have more planes? New plane can be added quickly. All art can be done in 2 days, programming would take even less then a day thx to non-hardcode open format. I suppose it is even possible to mod new plane right?

P.S.: there are 4 types of computer gamers. I don't know very elegant translation but

killer - needs to kill other players or plays on superhard

scout - scouts the game world (a lot of planes is very much needed for this type of player)

targeter - creates aims he wants to achieve (ie he imagines some situations and frames). He can replay the game many times. Many planes are needed for this type of player

I've forgotten the 4th type of player

Low orbit plane should be researchable somewhat suicide superlong range micro-ufo killer and F17, Mig32 should have more or less the same purpose but with a different approach as for me

book.jpg

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book.thumb.jpg.ee6836a580edaf66bca1a8a0c

Edited by KOKON
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My take on the Mig as a research project:

Xenonauts have only come across one ufo so far.

They had little hard data to work from.

They developed an interceptor that they felt would give them the best shot at taking out another ufo if it should arrive.

This was the f-17 and has been around for years so they are able to get hold of them when they need them.

Unfortunately when the aliens do return they bring a wider variety of ships.

Xenonauts command realise their current fighter, although useful in the role they designed it for, lacks firepower for some situations.

They send their scientists off to look at other available human aircraft and find that the Mig has a good balance of firepower and speed which meets their requirements for a heavy interceptor.

They also determine that with a few simple modifications, such as fitting some alloy armour plates over vital areas, it would be tough enough to do the job.

This is the research completed.

Now when Xenonauts command requisition a heavy interceptor from the Russians, which they supply as their treaty dictates, it needs a few days of work for the modifications to be done.

The f-17 doesn't need this time because it is an established, although secret, variant.

Sounds quite justified to me.

That sounds like my take on it as well.

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