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30 different weapons - Quantity vs. Quality


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Hey all,

Just wanted to throw out some thoughts I had regarding the game and a general design philosophy. On the forums and RPS, I have read a number of things:

-30 different weapons (not including grenades).

-40 different types of aliens.

-6 (or 8, can't remember) types of interceptors.

-8 types of armor

I know the project is going for a re-imagining of X-COM that avoids the simplification, but I am a bit worried that the goal might be focused on too much on numbers. Given the decreased budget, an increased number of weapons, armor, aliens, interceptors leads to decreased quality or increased cost/time for release.

Furthermore, I am not really sure that the increase in number really increases play options. Most of the time I try to tech up to my favorite weapons and then just use those.

Really this will come down to a full list and understanding of the options and the rate that we tech up and proceed in the game, but I really wanted to know the groups thoughts.

So would you really use all the options? Would you rather have a greater focus or more option?

P.S. Tried not to sell my point too much and leave the discussion open.

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I vote for variety, as long as there is game balance and rationale for it. Having 6 versions of the M-16 rifle is not what I'm looking for but having real, practical variation in weapons makes sense. I know this is supposed to be the 1970's so there is a limit to what can be done, but for instance I could see something like the M-79 grenade launcher eventually evolving (with alien tech inspiration) into something like today's modern laser-assisted XM-25 GL. Shotguns could evolve into full auto versions, pistols could get laser sights, etc. Sniper rifles can evolve to bigger bore (e.g. .50 caliber) and/or more precise, longer-range versions. Also it is not clear yet what effect, if any, weapon reliability has upon the game. New/experimental weapons should have more breakdowns, while others like the AK series should be quite reliable but perhaps less accurate compared to, say, the M-16.

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The breakdown is that there's usually a pistol, carbine, rifle, sniper rifle and heavy weapon of some description in each tier (ballistics, lasers, two more secret tiers), plus a few more specialist weapons. Essentially you'll upgrade to the next tier as the game goes on to try and keep up with the increasingly tough alien units. But swopping a ballistic rifle for a laser rifle won't have THAT much effect on the role of the troops besides increased damage and the fact he's carrying a heavier gun with a smaller clip. So the weapon types should be relatively intuitive.

There's 12 alien races in the game (including support vehicles), but five of the races have multiple variations so they can scale in difficulty as the game progresses. That's what brings it up to about 40. It should be enough to provide variation and a scalable challenge without being overwhelming.

On the plus side, almost all that stuff is done now except the sprite rendering so it's not really consuming any of our resources any more!

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not sure how many weapons there are, maybe up to 30.

There are 7-8 types of aliens, and 5 (I believe) support alien types

6-7 interceptor types

and I think 7 types of armour

So not as bad as you think, but maybe you should try the game and not work off the numbers only? =]

Also the number of different alien types is also from that article.

I guess the question is, do we really need 8 types of armor? What does this add to gameplay?

If the answer is that it is just more, then that can actually be a negative.

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Also the number of different alien types is also from that article.

I guess the question is, do we really need 8 types of armor? What does this add to gameplay?

If the answer is that it is just more, then that can actually be a negative.

Getting the numbers in bulk like that looks bad but when you see the aliens, weapons and armors individually they will seem like a lot less and it will mesh together in a pleasant balanced way... You might even feel that there's not enough. Some people have suggested more variability (don't worry more then half the community has argued against it and Chris has made no indication that he even considered the thread)

Your fears are unfounded.

PS. I think it's more of an indication of Chris dedication then a suggestion he's cramming in numbers into the game DS.

Edited by Gorlom
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No we don't need 8 types of armour that are straight upgrades each time.

However you have to choose between a heavy type and a lighter scout type.

These will have different bonuses including strength and visibility as well as outright armour value.

The later scout armours are also planned to have a jump feature (as in jetpack, not skipping;)).

Personally I feel that the choice adds a lot to the gameplay over the original games "get everyone into flying armour".

Same goes for the weapons.

Each weapon has its own role and is represented in each tier.

That is why the numbers look so high.

It is not assault rifle three has slightly better range than assault rifle two so you need to upgrade to that etc.

If you want to work in close you may use a pistol and shield or an SMG, for longer range damage output go for an assault rifle with snipers and machine gunners as support.

When you can use the next tier your tactics may not change much but you will be better able to deal with tougher targets.

I think once you see how things are unfolding you will enjoy the systems that are in place.

If not there will be plenty of mods to add/remove and alter weapons I bet :).

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Also the number of different alien types is also from that article.

I guess the question is, do we really need 8 types of armor? What does this add to gameplay?

If the answer is that it is just more, then that can actually be a negative.

I would hazard a guess that the armor improves to help keep your soldiers alive as the aliens grow stronger, hence the need for more armor types.

I'm also glad you can start out the game with some form of combat armor; it always struck me as rather absurd that X-COM sent its personnel into battle wearing only flightsuits by default.

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I'll be honest... 30 infantry weapons is more than sufficient from a military standpoint (which due to my history is how I approach most games of this nature) Consider that most military forces have a standard pistol, rifle, and sniper rifle, and you'll start to realize that most variety in the arsenal comes from infantry support weapons. (machine guns and AT weapons) so in most cases you're looking at maybe 8 weapons not including special issue. Cut down the number of machine guns from the typical 3 to 1 and you open up space for other styles of heavy weapon (maybe a heavier beam laser for example)

So when you consider 4 tiers of weaponry 30 weapons is very much on par with the advancement of a military armory.

Just the new guy's 2 cents

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I'm confused, would you mind elaborating on this? What 3 machine guns? From Xnonauts? or which game?

Sorry, I was rather unclear. I was referring to the typical armory of actual modern day military forces, not in a game. I expect that Xenonauts would have 1 machine gun instead, which would slim down the armory somewhat.

The US Marine Corps. for example uses a 5.56 light machine gun a 7.62 NATO medium and a .50 caliber heavy (12.7mm if I recall my measurements.) In a game such as this one where you're not defending static positions, the heavy MG immediately becomes irrelevant and the medium is not something I want to carry on foot any distance at all. Personal experience there.

Edited by Montie
Clarification
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Consider that most military forces have a standard pistol, rifle, and sniper rifle, and you'll start to realize that most variety in the arsenal comes from infantry support weapons. (machine guns and AT weapons) so in most cases you're looking at maybe 8 weapons not including special issue. Cut down the number of machine guns from the typical 3 to 1 and you open up space for other styles of heavy weapon (maybe a heavier beam laser for example)

From a purely realistic POV, a large field army wouldn't use more than 3-5 "main" weapons and the only reason to have pistols on the battlefield at all is rather psychological in nature.

The X-Com troopers have always been more along the line of special forces, fighting in small units and with highly unusual weapons.

The strict tier system really hurts because you only ever have 5 weapons to choose from so the game doesn't have 30 but rather 5 (plus special) weapons.

Well, you could use some from a lower tier that are so outdated they're going to get your soldiers killed...

Not much of a choice there.

The way that I would interpret "30 weapons" is that newly researched weapons increase your tactical options.

A weapon that works well against alien shields, one that has a small AOE, making it questionable in CQB, smart bullets with FF recognition, over-penetrating bullets that can hit more than one target, different damage types... there are plenty of options besides making the "current" tier the only usable one.

Now if a new weapon only adds the chore of having to produce and distribute it, that doesn't give the player a great deal of choice.

Having to do something is not an interesting choice at all and strategy games are all about making choices.

It's unlikely the released game will have anything but a strict tier system, though. It's simply easier to balance 5 weapons (at any given game progress) than 30.

Game mechanics aren't modable in Xenonauts, either, so... this is it.

the medium (MG) is not something I want to carry on foot any distance at all.

Personal experience there.

Hehehe. Been there. =P

In Xeno we have all these fantastic high-tech armours, though, some of which might well increase the strength of a soldier enough to turn MMG or maybe even HMG into personal weapons.

Might be a bit of a stretch to keep a "useful" belt size without requiring a loader but that's something that can be adjusted to match the desired gameplay. =P

Galactic Civilisations (and similiarly structured Stardock games like Elemental) go with a "quantity" approach.

As weapon research progresses, there will be useless weapons.

The difference?

The game UI takes that into account and each weapon / technology has a "never show me this old crap again" checkbox so game screens like research or build are not cluttered with useless items.

Edited by Gazz
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Very true in regards to the armors, hadn't really taken them into account in regards to doing things other than being dead weight until the troopers start getting shot. UFO: Aftermath did something similar with it's heaviest armors in that they'd augment strength and allow you to carry miniguns.

I'd hope for some opportunities where different weapon types would be more effective as well, but Chris did seem pretty clear about the more linear tier system.

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The different weapons can have different damage types (at a minimum there are kinetic, energy, stun and incendiary), there is also a way to change them to explosives I think.

The vanilla weapons may not make much use of those (as far as we know) but I'm sure a decent modder will be able to.

I agree that there are other ways to use research to improve the weapon choice but unless each and every weapon is well thought out and has a niche it just wouldn't work.

Making a sniper rifle that can shoot through walls for example makes the old sniper rifle just as obsolete as if you had researched a new tier with more power.

You say only 5 weapons to choose from as if they are 5 similar weapons but they aren't really.

This is not a choice from 5 pistols with slight variations in damage etc.

You also can't disregard the heavy weapons as there will be advanced versions of those also.

The tier system is a tried and tested method, it may not be ideal but it works.

I am not sure what you mean with the last section of your post Gazz.

You basically say through the post that you don't like having weapons become useless but then add a paragraph that seems to support the same thing.

Maybe I'm reading that wrong.

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I am not sure what you mean with the last section of your post Gazz.

You basically say through the post that you don't like having weapons become useless but then add a paragraph that seems to support the same thing.

Maybe I'm reading that wrong.

The interface of those games was actively adjusted to take into account that some weapons would be totally useless and remove them as options unless specifically requested by the user. I'm kinda guessing here, but Xenonauts doesn't have a similar automatic UI adjustment so you'd be looking at the entire array. Unless you sold the rest off I guess, if you can do that in Xenonauts.

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If you shoot a plasma rifle, the plasma (and/or whatever contains it) travels on a ballistic trajectory.

Any projectile made from matter does.

Well, actually so does light. You just need a gravity source on a scale that makes the entire "alien invasion" thing irrelevant.

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If you shoot a plasma rifle, the plasma (and/or whatever contains it) travels on a ballistic trajectory.

Any projectile made from matter does.

Well, actually so does light. You just need a gravity source on a scale that makes the entire "alien invasion" thing irrelevant.

I think their definition of Ballistic would be current generation firearms (I say current as they've changed little since well before 1970 in regards to basic operation) Gauss weaponry could possibly be classified as an EM (Electro-Magnetic) weapon. Plasma a High Impact Energy weapon and Lasers a Direct Energy weapon. Just tossing some ideas out there.

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I liked having "moddable" weapons in the UFO series (e.g. laser sight, scope, silencer, etc.) but I don't think those are must-haves if they're a distraction from moving to higher tiers. But, if game-play testing discovers too big of a gap between two given tiers, having modded versions for the lower tier might help fill the gap.

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