Different types of shotgun ammo

[plucx]

Here is a rewrite of my previous post in the hope we can progress again.

I think Xenonauts would benefit greatly in having munition dictating weapon behavior.

First, modders will bring up problems with weapon moddability and the answer will be "we got it in reverse and it's to late to code back".

Many players ask for variety in weapon effect. As such we can expect several modders to have several effects like explosives bullets or special sniper ammo, hangun hollowpoint bullets. While we can argue about the worth of these ammo, the fact is that modder will try to make them.

If the code is done to have the weapon dictating behavior instead of the munition there might be a problem.

Indeed, the modder will need to write a new weapon and add it to the library. This will likely lead to a cramped armoy.

If the weapon behavior is dependent on the munition types being used, the modder wont have to add a new weapon in the armory, as such it will organise mods into weapon effect by using existing weapon model.

I beleive that allowing munition variety will streamline overall modding since there wont be a need to add a new weapon class that represent many art files in the library. Also, instead of doing another version of the gun, the modder would only have to make a small picture of a bullet and add it to the munition library. The reverse would only hampers modding and rehauling of the game.

The weapon variety is a recurrent question, so why not leaving the variety part to the modders. As long as the bullet can be edited to change weapon behavior, modder will easely be able to add different effect to the same weapon.

Now, let say I am modding the rocket launcher to have Nuke rocket in it. Well I will have to copy all the launcher frames, add them to the library. Same goes for napalm rockets, he rockets, sniper rifle rounds, shot guns rounds.

Each and every weapon effect would need weapon entry in the armory.

In the end, there is the copyright that get in the boat too. Let say I copy the art to put it in another folder, mixt to colors a bit to make it different. The result is then disrespecfull for the artist. Usually people get to the easiest path and that is it.

I think mods will cramp out the armory so much that weapon mods will become infamous just for that.

Finally, I carried on the shotgun ammunition argument mostly because I see a potential in munition moddability.

On the Shot shell argument, the slight gain in hit ratio is worth it, especially in early game. The damage spread make it less effective against armored ennemies and that means the player can't use it for everything. Also, better hit ratio doe's not mean range.

PS

In term of Beta testing, it might be interesting to have several ammo of the same types but with diffrent attributes to test out different dmg types or effect. In the end , you could test a lot more munition types in one session than the other way around, thus neglecting the time spent coding back and getting a better product mod wise.

If you can load plasma , laser, slug, 9mm, ect in the same weapon, you can try out a lot more stuff in shorter time.

[plucx]

Nice video of the Shotgun history http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZigVi1q6F4Q&feature=related

[MrPyro]

How does the rocket launcher work now in terms of handling different ammunition types? We already have an example here of a weapon that can take different ammunition types; is this a special case?

[Gauddlike]

You can add different ammo types to any of the weapons with different stats as far as I can tell.

The only down side is that the type of shot is set by the weapon.

For example a grenade has the bullettype="grenade" flag, rocket launchers have bullettype="rocket" and projectile type weapons have bullettype="normal".

I think that means any bullet fired from a rocket launcher would act like a rocket, no matter what changes you made to the ammo and can't have a rocket type projectile (i.e. area effect) from a weapon that was set to normal bullets.

As long as you only want another ammo type that works the same way as the current one, but has different damage or mitigation, it should be easy.

The problem comes when you want something special, like spreading cones of shot.

Each ammo type can have its own "type" set as well, such as kinetic, energy etc.

Basically if someone was interested in having multiple ammo types they could make some.

You can give each one its own type (energy, kinetic, incendiary).

Change the animation for the projectile and impact, and change the impact sound.

Change its damage properties (damage, armour mitigation, stun damage).

You may also be able to change its impact radius, but that may only work on rockets, I haven't tried.

If these bullettype flags were set by the ammo rather than the weapon it would make things a little more varied I guess.

*edit* I have no idea how you would display multiple ammo types in the equip screens etc.

Rockets currently have a whole separate screen for their multiple ammo.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Gauddlike

[cyllan]

gaudlike

"My objection is that I don't feel your suggested change adds anything interesting to the game."

"Would I use the shotgun as much if its efficacy was dependent on reloading it for different enemy types and having the right ammunition in my pack"

really? how about being able to use the shotgun efectibly aganists armored and unarmored enemies at short range depending on ammo used?.... not good? interesting and usefull?

that doesnt make the game better with minimun coding difference? try shooting one of those green mutants from the first xcom with the standard weapons and see what you get....... i got 2 rochet shots to his face and the guy was still standing most of the time

i think it is pretty obvious, insteresting and balanced.

picking on my grammar and other pointless arguments(we dont need it......what?) like some people here have done here is sad , patronisig and pathetic ...... and it is not even a "cool" feature.... cool would be AAA visuals and effects...... but there is no budget for that....not even for female soldiers..... so i am only suggesting basic gameplay concepts at minimun cost.

[Gauddlike]

I know you feel it would be a nice addition but rehashing the same old argument is not going to suddenly make me decide it would be a fun mechanic.

Rather than re-opening the older posts though why not have a try at making two different ammo types and see how it works in the alpha?

If you get two different types working and want to share them with us in the mod section I will be more than happy to try it out.

Might even convince me that it's more fun.

[Chollirem]

First your forum thingy sucks, it just ate my info for you guys that I spend a half hour pulling together in my head...so heres the rehash

focus on weapons doing their job first...weapons being

short range ......................................(shotguns/smg)

Short range AOE ...............................(flame throwers)

Mid range ........................................(assault riffles)

Inderect fire support as Mid Range AOE (grenade launcher)

Long range ......................................(Scoped Riffles)

Anti Armor .......................................(rocket launchers)

Direct fire support supression ..............(SAW or Squad Automatic Weapon "Machine gun")

As for rounds....weeeelllll

All riffles have

Armor peircing (go straight through soft targets... but go in a armored target and bounce around inside...sucks when its your guts)

Hollow point (worthless on any armor...but leave big hole in back of unarmored folks)

Squish Head (soft shell for armored/unarmored troops, will deliver massive kinetic impact to outside of armor or inside of unarmored)

Hyper velocity (more speed is more impact damage for AP and SH type rounds)

Sub-sonic (silent shhhhh im a sniper)

Tracer (normally used to walk your rounds in on a target but still burns like hell, left mad scars on my arm when i got shot...secondary infections and hospital time...not cool)

Riffle men...Infantry are the queen of battle as the US army says...we can go any place and be used to good effect.

Now for support weapons...each has a job...

Shotgun/smg.....................................(trench/room clearing)

Grenade launcher...............................(indirect mid range fire support/suppression)

Flame thrower...................................(area denial/room or bunker clearing)

SAW................................................(Direct fire support/suppression)

Rocket Launcher................................(anti armor)

Saw is a riffle so its been covered

flame thrower spits burning jelly, nuff said

Slug..............................................................(SG "shotgun" GL "grenade launcher" and RL "rocket launcher" if round is a dud lol)

fleccette/buckshot...........................................(SG GL)

High exsplosive................................................(GL RL)

White phosphorus "WP"....fk Geneva >= .........(GL RL)

incendiary (like WP but more controlled) ..............(SG GL RL)

Flare..............................................................(GL)

tear gas..........................................................(GL)

think i had more but i had to redo all this so fk it for now

STILL

War is about range...all the weapons above are worthless next to a rifle that can shoot further...if I can kill you before you can even shoot at me, the weapon is worthless...thats why they are all SUPPORT

Every tool its place...every alien its grave

You will always need SDM's (Squad Designated Marksmen or baby snipers) to hit at distance....

You will always need Riffle men for mid to long range combat plus mobility

and even the aliens will have this when you think about it...they just have better versions of it plus plasma (fourth state of matter) that burns.... and energy weapons like lasers...(that also burn)

This leaves you with one question...do you armor yourself against direct energy weapons...or kinetic energy weapons? do you field one or the other...or both (i say both)

but in a nut shell...this is (or should be) the core of the weapons game play and used for both sides.... unless i missed something (ya second day here im new)

now...

I just read the whole general discussion forum today...im tired...had to write this post twice...my grammar sucks right now, still have like 8 more forums of stuff at 30 plus pages to read and play catch up.... im gona pass out, you all have fun with this.

[erutan]

I barely skimmed the thread, but one reason there is no buckshot is that it isn't worth the dev time to make the cone of fire work properly in the current engine. I personally do feel shotguns should have multiple ammo types, or at least not default on slugs, but that's just gonna be the way it's going to be.

Given only first tier weapons have traditional ammo it's not worth working out a super complex system for it. It's not JA2/7.62mm etc.

Edited December 31, 2012 by erutan

[Max_Caine]

Hidden within this thread is Chris' response, which can be found here and here. That's all that can be said on the subject, really.

[Chollirem]

teir one? LOL you realize once these core game mechanics are in and sound plasma weapons can fire a "buck shot" type blast

As long as the base mechanics are sound, the higher tears just upgrade and add to what it can do

[Max_Caine]

Then you need to make that case to Chris.

[erutan]

Buckshot spread is the only type that would carry across tiers (no AP, hollowpoint, etc) in the case of buckshot there is a specific issue with the closed source game engine they're using that makes it hard to calculate/animate the "spread". Given everything else that needs to be wrapped up it just isn't that much of a priority. It'd be great to have more stances (prone, duckwalk, sprint, crawl, etc) but due to how it does sprites that isn't viable either. Ce la vie.

For better and worse this is going to be a much closer remake of X-COM94 than the Firaxis one, or a JA3, etc.

Edited January 2, 2013 by erutan

[Tacobandit]

Now I have no idea in this game if the humans are meant to use alien tech (as it says that the p pistol/rifle are very inaccurate for them) so I am assuming that human technology is meant to be used for a while. In that case, it would make more sense to have different ammo types (at least for the LMG/Rocket launcher, or any Heavy weapon like in the OG).

[Khall]

The humans don't really use "alien" alien tech as such, you can pick up and use alien guns dropped during missions (with an accuracy penalty and no reloading because they're not ergonomically designed for humans) in an emergency, but they are sold off automatically at the end of the mission.

We develop our own (distinctly human designed) weapons based on alien tech, not carbon copies of alien weapons. E.g. We quickly develop lasers (the 2nd tier) using the properties of alien alloys and alenium, after which

our own version of plasma weapons (3rd tier) are made.

For reference you should be starting to issue laser weapons by the end of the second month, so personally I find these big debates about the starting weapons pointless since they're phased out rather quickly.

And different rocket types are in for the rocket launcher e.g. Frag, armour-piercing, incendiary, with more unlocked through research

[Tacobandit]

The humans don't really use "alien" alien tech as such, you can pick up and use alien guns dropped during missions (with an accuracy penalty and no reloading because they're not ergonomically designed for humans) in an emergency, but they are sold off automatically at the end of the mission.

We develop our own (distinctly human designed) weapons based on alien tech, not carbon copies of alien weapons. E.g. We quickly develop lasers (the 2nd tier) using the properties of alien alloys and alenium, after which

our own version of plasma weapons (3rd tier) are made.

For reference you should be starting to issue laser weapons by the end of the second month, so personally I find these big debates about the starting weapons pointless since they're phased out rather quickly.

And different rocket types are in for the rocket launcher e.g. Frag, armour-piercing, incendiary, with more unlocked through research

Well that certainly ruins my chances of never running out of guns...

[Gauddlike]

On the up side the starting tech is still available for when you can't afford to give everyone the best gear available.

The armour damage system at least means that repeatedly hitting an enemy with any weapon, even one that does negligible damage, will eventually wear them down and allow you to kill them.

You will be better off with a full squad toting lasers but if you have to bring along a ballistic MG then it won't be entirely useless as it will wear the enemy down and hopefully still provide some suppression.

[StellarRat]

Buckshot spread is the only type that would carry across tiers (no AP, hollowpoint, etc) in the case of buckshot there is a specific issue with the closed source game engine they're using that makes it hard to calculate/animate the "spread".

Buckshot doesn't spread out much at usable ranges anyway. It's hardly worth bothering with the spread. You'd have to be way beyond the useful range of buckshot (past 50 yards) before it even filled one tile in Xenonauts. A full choke pattern is only about 12" across at 50 yards (in case your wondering.)

Search for "Buckshot beta ready" in the mods section if you want my best guesstimate on what buckshot would be like instead of slugs. You even get a new sprite for pellets.

Edited January 9, 2013 by StellarRat

[Tacobandit]

Buckshot doesn't spread out much at usable ranges anyway. It's hardly worth bothering with the spread. You'd have to be way beyond the useful range of buckshot (past 50 yards) before it even filled one tile in Xenonauts. A full choke pattern is only about 12" across at 50 yards (in case your wondering.)

Search for "Buckshot beta ready" in the mods section if you want my best guesstimate on what buckshot would be like instead of slugs. You even get a new sprite for pellets.

Any chance that there will be cool easter egg unlocks, like a double barreled shotgun or a deagle?

[thothkins]

not likely at all.

[Tacobandit]

not likely at all.

[Max_Caine]

Tacobandit, if you can find me a free image of a Deagle (will also need an image of a magazine) suitible for Xenonauts, I'll mod it in and make the modded weapon file available to you.

[Tacobandit]

Tacobandit, if you can find me a free image of a Deagle (will also need an image of a magazine) suitible for Xenonauts, I'll mod it in and make the modded weapon file available to you.

But the whole point is that it would be a secret weapon inside the game, that maybe would randomly spawn inside some redneck's house.

[Gauddlike]

That could actually be possible to a certain extent, at least with a couple of code alterations.

I vaguely remember that you can set some tiles to give a certain item if they are intact at the end of a battle.

Now I am pretty sure that is limited to Alenium and alloys at the moment.

If it could direct to other items you could have a tile that only appears on a rare submap on a single tileset.

For example a gun cabinet in a house.

Then if that remained intact you would recover an item that allowed a new weapon or whatever to be unlocked.

Think like recovering alien navigation to trigger the research.

It would probably be a lot more work than it would be worth though.

[erutan]

Buckshot doesn't spread out much at usable ranges anyway. It's hardly worth bothering with the spread. You'd have to be way beyond the useful range of buckshot (past 50 yards) before it even filled one tile in Xenonauts. A full choke pattern is only about 12" across at 50 yards (in case your wondering.)

Search for "Buckshot beta ready" in the mods section if you want my best guesstimate on what buckshot would be like instead of slugs. You even get a new sprite for pellets.

Good point, it can be paired close. I guess I was thinking of how it was used in JA2, but even then that was mostly with a vietnam style duckbill attachment. If there is some decent sprite for buckshot ammo that might be worth swapping out for slugs (give the shotgun a bonus to hit up close and have that greatly drop off at medium range) - I don't know the specifics but I don't think people use slugs in combat that much? Maybe if they hvae a CAWS or something?

[Tacobandit]

Good point, it can be paired close. I guess I was thinking of how it was used in JA2, but even then that was mostly with a vietnam style duckbill attachment. If there is some decent sprite for buckshot ammo that might be worth swapping out for slugs (give the shotgun a bonus to hit up close and have that greatly drop off at medium range) - I don't know the specifics but I don't think people use slugs in combat that much? Maybe if they hvae a CAWS or something?

The average homeowner generally isn't in combat all that much.